Shotokan for self defence.

[Hanzou]

If youre a high ranking student in a style that does... thats been proven effective in MMA which according to you is one of the best ways to judge effectiveness.... than yeah understanding thems pretty important....

Proven effective when propped up by other MA systems.

I would love to see a "pure" Karateka enter a NHB competition and see how he does. The last one that did got obliterated pretty quickly back in the early UFC.

 

[drop bear]

Proven effective when propped up by other MA systems.

I would love to see a "pure" Karateka enter a NHB competition and see how he does. The last one that did got obliterated pretty quickly back in the early UFC.

More to that story.

 

[Drose427]

how do you change your fighting tactics to compensate for that?

Fighting for your life has a completely different psychological impact than fighting in a safe controlled environment for pride and money.

Anyone who thinks theyre the same has never had to do the former.

Like kids who think they can take the psychological damage of combat because theyre "MMA/Boxing/wrestling badasses because theyre used to that type of pressure" or my personal favorite living in Appalachia, "I've killed living creatures, humans cant be that much different."

Nobody steps into the ring fearing for their life.

Proven effective when propped up by other MA systems.

I would love to see a "pure" Karateka enter a NHB competition and see how he does. The last one that did got obliterated pretty quickly back in the early UFC.

Machida and GSP knock folks out pretty frequently with it..Most folks (even the non karateka) have said many times on this forum now that how they strike without their grappling is exactly what youd see from a high level karateka.

Its still a hugely popular style in Kickboxing, I suppose kickboxers dont have good fighting ability because they dont grapple though.....

well then I should just do a semester of police training and i will be sorted for self defence right?

And not even worry about achieving"strong fighting ability"

The argument was that ability to fight defines ones ability to defend themselves. Many, many jobs prove that wrong. Cops are just one.

Fighting isnt inherently a necessity to be able to defend oneself

 

[RTKDCMB]

Considering that several highly effective arts don't have kata or bunkai, does one really need to understand it?

Considering that several highly effective arts DO have kata or bunkai, it doesn't hurt to.

 

[Hanzou]

Considering that several highly effective arts DO have kata or bunkai, it doesn't hurt to.

Considering that we don't see any expression of kata within the sparring, competitive, or combative aspect of those arts, I would question the effectiveness of that kata training. Especially since the arts that don't do kata or bunkai can perform at an equal, if not superior level.

 

[RTKDCMB]

.

And?

 

[Drose427]

Considering that we don't see any expression of kata within the sparring, competitive, or combative aspect of those arts, I would question the effectiveness of that kata training. Especially since the arts that don't do kata or bunkai can perform at an equal, if not superior level.

So all of Abernethys combative drills, practices, and techniques he takes from kata are completely bogus?

Bunkai is combative considering theyre drilled at full speed, full contact.

Not to mention all the takedowns and grappling in kata that are used in Jujustu and Judo...

 

[RTKDCMB]

Considering that we don't see any expression of kata within the sparring, competitive, or combative aspect of those arts,

Speak for yourself, I have used techniques from patterns in sparring a number of times.

I would question the effectiveness of that kata training. Especially since the arts that don't do kata or bunkai can perform at an equal, if not superior level.

They also can perform at an inferior level, especially when it comes to technique, I have seen it.

 

[Drose427]

Speak for yourself, I have used techniques from patterns in sparring a number of times.



They also can perform at an inferior level, especially when it comes to technique, I have seen it.

Lots of folks in boxing/MMA, even UFC, who's punches are little more than barfight haymakers.

 

[Drose427]

how do you change your fighting tactics to compensate for that?

To expand on what I said to you here

Fighting for your life has a completely different psychological impact than fighting in a safe controlled environment for pride and money.

Anyone who thinks theyre the same has never had to do the former.

Like kids who think they can take the psychological damage of combat because theyre "MMA/Boxing/wrestling badasses because theyre used to that type of pressure" or my personal favorite living in Appalachia, "I've killed living creatures, humans cant be that much different."

Nobody steps into the ring fearing for their life.



Machida and GSP knock folks out pretty frequently with it..Most folks (even the non karateka) have said many times on this forum now that how they strike without their grappling is exactly what youd see from a high level karateka.

Its still a hugely popular style in Kickboxing, I suppose kickboxers dont have good fighting ability because they dont grapple though.....



The argument was that ability to fight defines ones ability to defend themselves. Many, many jobs prove that wrong. Cops are just one.

Fighting isnt inherently a necessity to be able to defend oneself

No amount of regulated/sport fighting can prepare for the psychological impact of fearing for your life.

Getting used to contact helps

With that in mind:

I'd rather train in a school where when we drill our everyday SD/Bunkai, im working with someone twice my size whos swinging full speed right at my face. If I dont move, somethings getting broke or cut and it has been. If my positions off, I dont get the takedown because theres nearly a hundred pound difference in size and couldnt muscle the guy an inch.

The issue with weight classes is they dont get you used to facing an opponent considerably larger than you.

Where Im not told "These are all illegal moves, you cant strike here, here or here, this techs illegal unless youre in this position, etc." and I have full range of attacks and target areas Im allowed to strike.

Where in Free sparring, Im still going up against guys twice my side and have to learn how to adapt from that.

Where instead of training for a very specific ruleset in a 1 v1 match, we frequently mix it up and do 2 v 1, or punches only.

Where we drill, drill, drill full contact SD for a variety of situations. Grabs, intimidators, sitting positions, do bullpin sparring

I've had just as many injuries in my TSD training as I did when I was competing in Boxing and Wrestling.

Quite frankly, there is nothing an MMA gym could give me other than a bit of BJJ (which is on my bucket list assuming I can find a school that simply overpriced, commercialized egoism like the current ones in my area) that I cant get with how we train now. They could assimilate me to MMA rules and break habits I have that would get me DQ'd, but thats it.

Everything you could get for SD from MMA, I've gotten from TSD and wrestling. Many people get those things without ever stepping into the cage for a match.

Maybe in the early days of Vale Tudo and MMA, when dang near anything was allowed, it wouldve been a better fit for general SD. But where its at now, its so centralized around the rules of its own competition to be some "superior method"

When both methods use full contact, and neither can prepare you completely for the psychological impact of actually fighting for your life, I'm going to go with the one that doesnt limit what I can do from the start and gives me the most options.

 

[Tez3]

I train MMA and TMA, we train fighters for MMA and we teach SD as part of our TMA classes. What many people forget when praising MMA over TMA is that MMA is TMA.
MMA isn't made up of some new style just invented for it, it's an amalgam of styles which have been around for a very long time. People are coming into the sport now who have no previous experience in martial arts but the majority of fighters have come from single traditional styles. That's styles like karate, TKD,MT, boxing as well as Judo, wrestling and BJJ ( which itself comes from a TMA).

Fighters can switch to non rules fighting if they need to and non fighters can fight to rules if they want to. On Iain Abernethy's seminars, if he knows you do MMA he will point out moves and show you moves from kata that are particularly good for that, I take them back to our fighters.

I think it's such a shame that people rush to say kata is pointless and doesn't work, perhaps they don't want to explore it which is fine, I don't want to take up water skiing but I don't rubbish it. I don't like swimming and I don't like vast areas of water, people will point out that learning to swim will save my life, I don't dispute it but I'm not going to learn. On the other hand I'm not going to rubbish swimming coaches, saying they just fuff around in the water being pointless. I know their value. The kata argument is the same, you don't do it so it must be valueless. It's not but you still don't have to do, just accept that others find value in it. I see value in most types of martial arts training, I wouldn't rubbish anything I hadn't tried nor anything that others find works. I'm not into 'breaking' it doesn't help me but many find it a good part of their training, they find it helps them in a lot of ways. Does that mean it's pointless as you can't use it in the cage! No it means I don't get anything from it, that's all. I'm not going to go on a rant about breaking, I'll just leave it to those who do it.

Forget the argument that if it works in MMA it works for self defence, try instead the idea that different people train different ways for different things, they enjoy their training which means they learn better, the truth is no one knows how they will react if attacked in a life threatening situation until that situation happens. If you do know because you've be attacked, well done on surviving, if you don't know, long may that continue. Tolerance towards others training should be the watchword here, not spend pages and months trying to prove that others training doesn't work, being quite spiteful about it, all it does is reflect the person making all the noise about kata being useless. When we rail against others, it's often the fault within ourselves we are railing against not the other person.

Accept that for many of us kata is a hugely useful tool, it doesn't affect the way you train, it doesn't reflect on you, we do it, it's our training. You don't like it, you don't understand it, fine you have two choices, ignore it or learn it. Either is fine and a very adult way to deal with it.

 

[Hanzou]

So all of Abernethys combative drills, practices, and techniques he takes from kata are completely bogus?

Where did I say that?

Bunkai is combative considering theyre drilled at full speed, full contact.

Not to mention all the takedowns and grappling in kata that are used in Jujustu and Judo...

Yeah, but even you said that it's behind Judo, and Bjj in the grappling department, and there's no kata in Bjj. So couldn't I simply take Bjj and be just fine? Or if I wanted to punch and kick, could I just pick up a kickboxing style that contained no kata and be just as effective as a karateka who spends far more time learning kata and kata bunkai?

Or in my case, simply take the kicks and punches I learned from karate and combine them with my bjj training. No kata or bunkai necessary.

 

[drop bear]

Fighting for your life has a completely different psychological impact than fighting in a safe controlled environment for pride and money.

Anyone who thinks theyre the same has never had to do the former.

That is a big call by the way. There are a lot of assumptions.

What are you basing that on

 

[drop bear]

Where did I say that?



Yeah, but even you said that it's behind Judo, and Bjj in the grappling department, and there's no kata in Bjj. So couldn't I simply take Bjj and be just fine? Or if I wanted to punch and kick, could I just pick up a kickboxing style that contained no kata and be just as effective as a karateka who spends far more time learning kata and kata bunkai?

Or in my case, simply take the kicks and punches I learned from karate and combine them with my bjj training. No kata or bunkai necessary.

Forget the argument that if it works in MMA it works for self defence, try instead the idea that different people train different ways for different things, they enjoy their training which means they learn better, the truth is no one knows how they will react if attacked in a life threatening situation until that situation happens. If you do know because you've be attacked, well done on surviving, if you don't know, long may that continue

I agree with a lot of what you say. This one is kind of a misconception though.

I feel an indication that something works is just better than no indication.

Looking at evidence removes some of the preconceived notions people have.

It is the dogma that is my issue here. I just don't respond to it.

 

[Steve]

On a phone so please forgive spelling errors and such. Just a few comments on the train wreck so far.

I'm not a cop, but becoming one isn't easy as some are now suggesting.

If the definition of self defense is stopping someone from hurting you, then an mma fight is self defense even though there are weigh ins and the rest.

If you have never had to "fight for your life" nor stepped into a ring against a well prepared opponent, perhaps you aren't in a position to comment on the psycHology of either.

 

[Paul_D]

If the definition of self defense is stopping someone from hurting you, then an mma fight is self defense even though there are weigh ins and the rest.

I don't see how an MMA fight equates to stopping someone hurting you as MMA fighters don't leave the cage unhurt. In fact quite the opposite looking at the state of some of them afterwards.

If the definition of SD is stopping someone from hurting you then running away is SD. But run away in MMA and you get disqualified.

 

[Tez3]

I agree with a lot of what you say. This one is kind of a misconception though.

I feel an indication that something works is just better than no indication.

Looking at evidence removes some of the preconceived notions people have.

It is the dogma that is my issue here. I just don't respond to it.

The 'dogma' is coming from only one side, that of the kata doesn't work and MMA does.

You can NOT tell if something works by watching a video on You Tube. It is proof of nothing. Hell, they have 'talking dogs' on there, loads of 'fails' so what does that prove. If you want evidence go somewhere where they train whatever it is you want evidence of. Have a look at a few places, do some research don't watch videos.

I know what works for me, after all these years I should but if you don't think it works, I don't care, I don't have to prove anything other than to myself. Others are intent of 'proving' what I say is a lie, instead perhaps they should spend the time they do on here arguing actually training, it would be productive. Calling people liars, trying to 'catch them out', being adamant they are right and we are all wrong is not productive, it's disrespectful and leaves a bad taste in the mouth. How much does us doing kata and bunkai impact on your training? How does the time I spend on Bunkai affect your training? None, you say, so why the need, yes it does seem to be a need, is it for you to be right? If you were to be proved 'right' what then? How would that change anything, yippee you won an argument, gosh, impressive. Really, it's time for some to go back to their BJJ and leave the rest of us alone isn't it? If our training worries you so much see a counsellor.

 

[drop bear]

On a phone so please forgive spelling errors and such. Just a few comments on the train wreck so far.

I'm not a cop, but becoming one isn't easy as some are now suggesting.

If the definition of self defense is stopping someone from hurting you, then an mma fight is self defense even though there are weigh ins and the rest.

If you have never had to "fight for your life" nor stepped into a ring against a well prepared opponent, perhaps you aren't in a position to comment on the psycHology of either.

The interesting thing here is i know experienced street fighters step into the ring shaking. Not being comfortable does not have to make sense and is different depending on the individual.

 

[Steve]

I don't see how an MMA fight equates to stopping someone hurting you as MMA fighters don't leave the cage unhurt. In fact quite the opposite looking at the state of some of them afterwards.

If the definition of SD is stopping someone from hurting you then running away is SD. But run away in MMA and you get disqualified.

Using this definition, an mma fight is self defense AND running away is also self defense. There's room here to be inclusive.

Also, don't confuse the goal with the result. The goal is self defense is stopping someone from hurting you. Neither in the ring nor anywhere else will the result always be so.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[drop bear]

The 'dogma' is coming from only one side, that of the kata doesn't work and MMA does.

You can NOT tell if something works by watching a video on You Tube. It is proof of nothing. Hell, they have 'talking dogs' on there, loads of 'fails' so what does that prove. If you want evidence go somewhere where they train whatever it is you want evidence of. Have a look at a few places, do some research don't watch videos.

I know what works for me, after all these years I should but if you don't think it works, I don't care, I don't have to prove anything other than to myself. Others are intent of 'proving' what I say is a lie, instead perhaps they should spend the time they do on here arguing actually training, it would be productive. Calling people liars, trying to 'catch them out', being adamant they are right and we are all wrong is not productive, it's disrespectful and leaves a bad taste in the mouth. How much does us doing kata and bunkai impact on your training? How does the time I spend on Bunkai affect your training? None, you say, so why the need, yes it does seem to be a need, is it for you to be right? If you were to be proved 'right' what then? How would that change anything, yippee you won an argument, gosh, impressive. Really, it's time for some to go back to their BJJ and leave the rest of us alone isn't it? If our training worries you so much see a counsellor.

Inversely then how does watching a youtube video not show something works? The idea is at least it works somewhere. Otherwise it could be any form of reference news articles,wiki whatever.

If you pick an I am right and you are wrong stance you cant also take the middle ground.