Shotokan for self defence.

[Dirty Dog]

Every drunk getting escorted out of a bar, and every patient that needs to be restrained isn't a self defense situation, nor are they always trying to hurt you.

Your ignorance is showing. Not for the first time.
If they weren't a danger, we wouldn't be restraining them.

 

[Drose427]

Which aren't always trying to hurt YOU specifically. So I wouldn't consider that a self defense situation.



There's plenty of cops who train at my Bjj gym. Again, just because you know how to fight doesn't mean you need to bash someone's face in during a confrontation. Ever see the Ryan Hall in the restaurant video? He restrained the guy without ever hurting him. Why? Because he's an excellent Bjj fighter.

Lol now you're just splitting hairs to try and be right

And here it is again.

"BJJ is the answer for everything" argument you've been pushing since you came to these forums

What a surprise

Many cops and many many other folks at other jobs DONT know how to fight, have no regular MA training, and are still more than capable of defending themselves.

 

[Dirty Dog]

There's plenty of cops who train at my Bjj gym. Again, just because you know how to fight doesn't mean you need to bash someone's face in during a confrontation. Ever see the Ryan Hall in the restaurant video? He restrained the guy without ever hurting him. Why? Because he's an excellent Bjj fighter.

I restrain people all the time without hurting them. I've never studied BJJ or any other ground art. My primary art is TKD, which is heavily striking oriented. And yet, I manage to do what, according to you, can only be done by "an excellent Bjj fighter".
I guess the non-existent (according to you) grappling techniques in TKD do work...

 

[Drose427]

I restrain people all the time without hurting them. I've never studied BJJ or any other ground art. My primary art is TKD, which is heavily striking oriented. And yet, I manage to do what, according to you, can only be done by "an excellent Bjj fighter".
I guess the non-existent (according to you) grappling techniques in TKD do work...

According to Hanzou, not unless we record it on video

 

[Hanzou]

Your ignorance is showing. Not for the first time.
If they weren't a danger, we wouldn't be restraining them.

Someone else being in danger isn't a self defense situation. Self defense means YOU are in danger.

 

[Hanzou]

I restrain people all the time without hurting them. I've never studied BJJ or any other ground art. My primary art is TKD, which is heavily striking oriented. And yet, I manage to do what, according to you, can only be done by "an excellent Bjj fighter".
I guess the non-existent (according to you) grappling techniques in TKD do work...

That's interesting, because I never said that only an excellent Bjj fighter can restrain people.

 

[Hanzou]

Lol now you're just splitting hairs to try and be right

And here it is again.

"BJJ is the answer for everything" argument you've been pushing since you came to these forums

What a surprise

Nah, you just haven't been paying attention.

Many cops and many many other folks at other jobs DONT know how to fight, have no regular MA training, and are still more than capable of defending themselves.

Did you conduct a nation wide poll of police forces around the country to come to that conclusion? Even if that's the case, the police receive pretty substantial training in order to do their jobs.

 

[Drose427]

Nah, you just haven't been paying attention.



Did you conduct a nation wide poll of police forces around the country to come to that conclusion? Even if that's the case, the police receive pretty substantial training in order to do their jobs.

Officers receive restraint training. Freesparring and fighting isn't that big of a part of the police academy. Some officers choose to study more, but it isn't a standard of Training.

I live and work with cadets. We have 3 forces in my area, there's one cop at my gym, none at the one I go to. Even if you don't want anecdotes, you can find their training. "Fighting" isn't a big part of it. The hand to hand training they do receive is simple restraints and takedowns. Which isn't really "fighting"

Earlier someone posted statistics, you can also find stats on officer training if you look. Many don't have MA training and can still defend themselves.

Then there still other jobs where many many folks who have no training are able to restrain someone and defend themselves or others as we've said

 

[Kong Soo Do]

...the police receive pretty substantial training in order to do their jobs.

I can't speak for every state, but our state has 106 hours of Defensive Tactics training in the academy (I was an academy instructor). Perhaps 4-8 hours annually in-service (I am an in-service instructor). Because of the way the training is designed (gross motor/flinch response etc) it is adequate. Doesn't make one a world champion or ninja, but it is generally adequate. I always advocate additional training during one's off-time as long as the training is applicable i.e. non-sport based. Doesn't mean that the program can't contain 'some' sport applications but it shouldn't be the focus.

For example, sport based BJJ or MMA (where the goal is to submit a single opponent, using a specific rule set, in an artificial environment) isn't good training for the job or general self defense. An art that trains to stay on your feet as well as regaining your feet as quickly as possible, by whatever means is necessary and appropriate to the situation (read movements that would not be allowed in a sport setting in situations requiring such action) and/or training against multiple (possibly armed) attackers using weapons, improvised weapons and all the other tactics I've previously described in SD methodology is good training for the job and/or general self defense.

 

[drop bear]

Given that probably everyone who enters into UFC competition does sparring as part of their training regimen, it's really not surprising that the list of UFC champions do, um...sparring.

That's not even what could be called a limited sample. I'd call that an extremely specialized sample that has little or nothing to do with all but the very tiniest percentage of the population.

well it is a sample of successful fighters who test against successful fighters in a sterile environment. A lot of the variables are removed so we can focus on some constants.

One of which is everybody spars.

hence we see a trend.

A tiniest example is the definition of a sample.

 

[drop bear]

This is one of the stupidest things I've seen posted in a long, long time. Someone is trying to hurt you. You stop them. How is that NOT self defense?

So a mma fight. Or a karate competition is self defence. And we are back to looking at my sample.

 

[Hanzou]

I can't speak for every state, but our state has 106 hours of Defensive Tactics training in the academy (I was an academy instructor). Perhaps 4-8 hours annually in-service (I am an in-service instructor). Because of the way the training is designed (gross motor/flinch response etc) it is adequate. Doesn't make one a world champion or ninja, but it is generally adequate. I always advocate additional training during one's off-time as long as the training is applicable i.e. non-sport based. Doesn't mean that the program can't contain 'some' sport applications but it shouldn't be the focus.

For example, sport based BJJ or MMA (where the goal is to submit a single opponent, using a specific rule set, in an artificial environment) isn't good training for the job or general self defense. An art that trains to stay on your feet as well as regaining your feet as quickly as possible, by whatever means is necessary and appropriate to the situation (read movements that would not be allowed in a sport setting in situations requiring such action) and/or training against multiple (possibly armed) attackers using weapons, improvised weapons and all the other tactics I've previously described in SD methodology is good training for the job and/or general self defense.

And what about Kata bunkai, and kata? Would you say that that's good training for the job or self defense?

 

[drop bear]

Tell that to correctional officers, orderlies, doormen, and more who can't for legal reasons or don't fight in the process of defending themselves.

Well they do. But you have to then accept that a street fight has rules.

Something I am constantly reminded of.

 

[drop bear]

Yes, there is quite a plethora of data. The Boatman Edged Weapon program has years of statistical data, both in the UK and in the U.S. This is why many L.E. agencies, including mine, have adopted it. No sparring involved. Last statistical data from the North Hamptonshire P.D. for G.B. as a whole indicates that prior to the adoption of the program, officers were injured 78% of the time in an edged weapon altercation (very prevalent in the U.K). After adoption of the program the injury rate dropped to 17%. More importantly, since it is based upon gross motor skill, it is retained in long term memory. This means that remedial training went from annually to every 18 months. Our retraining rate is 12-24 months depending upon the cycle the Deputy is in at the time.

L.E. doesn't use sparring, at least none that I'm aware of when we're discussing in-service training. Rather it is quite often scenario-based training which has already been discussed in other threads.

WWII combatives, possibly the most effective long term program, and certainly amount the most brutal never used sparring. In fact the actual training program was quite brief. Yet again, based upon gross motor skills the retention rate actually spanned into decades. Anyone in the combatives community knows of the effectiveness of the program.

My school never sparred. Yet our own data spanned women preventing date rapes, Correction Officers, Deputies and Baliffs had successful uses-of-force as well as Executive Protection Agents I've taught (one of which is now a fellow Deputy on my shift).

Since we're discussing self defense and not competitions, MMA using sparring as a training platform is not evidence for it's effectiveness or necessity. As noted in this and a multitude of other threads they are two separate animals and one training methodology that is effective in one venue doesn't constitute effectiveness in the other. And as I've pointed out multiple times, one methodology can actually be detrimental for an opposing venue.

Take home point, while sparring may be beneficial in a sport setting, it isn't necessary for self-defense.

And here of course you show the source of this data yes"

 

[Drose427]

And what about Kata bunkai, and kata? Would you say that that's good training for the job or self defense?

Kata bunkai are trained the same way cadets train their takedown and grapples.....drilling and resistance training with a partner

 

[drop bear]

Officers receive restraint training. Freesparring and fighting isn't that big of a part of the police academy. Some officers choose to study more, but it isn't a standard of Training.

I live and work with cadets. We have 3 forces in my area, there's one cop at my gym, none at the one I go to. Even if you don't want anecdotes, you can find their training. "Fighting" isn't a big part of it. The hand to hand training they do receive is simple restraints and takedowns. Which isn't really "fighting"

Earlier someone posted statistics, you can also find stats on officer training if you look. Many don't have MA training and can still defend themselves.

Then there still other jobs where many many folks who have no training are able to restrain someone and defend themselves or others as we've said

In the self defence thread i said it is more accurately situational defence.

The police have a whole bunch of tools at their disposal that that reduce the need to be unarmed combat experts.

So if we are focusing on the whole thing it becomes different to looking at specifics.

I would not suggest sparring assists with all elements of self defence. It is an important element if you are attacked.

 

[RTKDCMB]

ok we will look at this sample of successful fighters.
List of UFC champions - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

do you need proof that that the majority spar?

The majority of what?

 

[drop bear]

I can't speak for every state, but our state has 106 hours of Defensive Tactics training in the academy (I was an academy instructor). Perhaps 4-8 hours annually in-service (I am an in-service instructor). Because of the way the training is designed (gross motor/flinch response etc) it is adequate. Doesn't make one a world champion or ninja, but it is generally adequate. I always advocate additional training during one's off-time as long as the training is applicable i.e. non-sport based. Doesn't mean that the program can't contain 'some' sport applications but it shouldn't be the focus.

For example, sport based BJJ or MMA (where the goal is to submit a single opponent, using a specific rule set, in an artificial environment) isn't good training for the job or general self defense. An art that trains to stay on your feet as well as regaining your feet as quickly as possible, by whatever means is necessary and appropriate to the situation (read movements that would not be allowed in a sport setting in situations requiring such action) and/or training against multiple (possibly armed) attackers using weapons, improvised weapons and all the other tactics I've previously described in SD methodology is good training for the job and/or general self defense.

Cops carry guns,tazers and made. That is a big factor.

I know cops and they dismiss hand to hand based on that.

 

[drop bear]

The majority of what?

The majority of people who fight professionally and competitively.

Fighters who fight fighters. These are the guys who given time to prepare in the best manner possible. Prepare in a certain way.

 

[Drose427]

The majority of people who fight professionally and competitively.

Fighters who fight fighters. These are the guys who given time to prepare in the best manner possible. Prepare in a certain way.

People who spar for living spar?

I never would have guessed