Shotokan for self defence.

[drop bear]

You are assuming that sparring is the only way to gain these skills. Bad assumption.

It is an element that enhances those skills. You will find a few examples where people can fight and don't spar. But the general trend is that people who fight well rely on it.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

It is an element that enhances those skills. You will find a few examples where people can fight and don't spar. But the general trend is that people who fight well rely on it.

The general trend? I'd like to see your presentation of data to back this statement up. Please include you source material.

 

[drop bear]

The general trend? I'd like to see your presentation of data to back this statement up. Please include you source material.

ok we will look at this sample of successful fighters.
List of UFC champions - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

do you need proof that that the majority spar?

 

[Tez3]

ok we will look at this sample of successful fighters.
List of UFC champions - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

do you need proof that that the majority spar?

That's competition fighting, against a predetermined opponent of the same weight and gender whom you can study and plan a tactical fight against. If you are going to compete then sparring is a good idea but that's not what we are talking about.
The OP is about self defence. Do you need to 'spar' to be able to defend yourself?
I spar but I wouldn't say there weren't other methods to train to deal with a confrontation. I would not disbelieve someone who does something differently from the way I do things. I'd be interested in what other methods are and whether I could do them, I would take it in with an open mind and learn.

Fighting for points, money or just fun isn't self defence.

 

[drop bear]

I was reading some interesting comments fro mark McYoung the other day where he spoke about wha



That's competition fighting, against a predetermined opponent of the same weight and gender whom you can study and plan a tactical fight against. If you are going to compete then sparring is a good idea but that's not what we are talking about.
The OP is about self defence. Do you need to 'spar' to be able to defend yourself?
I spar but I wouldn't say there weren't other methods to train to deal with a confrontation. I would not disbelieve someone who does something differently from the way I do things. I'd be interested in what other methods are and whether I could do them, I would take it in with an open mind and learn.

Fighting for points, money or just fun isn't self defence.

It is the only sample we have. So your argument can be used to counter any claim of evidence that sparring is essential to self defence. But the you cannot consistently find any evidence that anything else works.

There is no data on self defence that we can access.

 

[Hanzou]

That's competition fighting, against a predetermined opponent of the same weight and gender whom you can study and plan a tactical fight against. If you are going to compete then sparring is a good idea but that's not what we are talking about.

To be fair, in early MMA/Vale Tudo fights there were no weight classes, very limited rules, and the fights were entirely random. I'm willing to bet that the winners tended to be the guys who sparred the most. Hence why competitive MAs tended to (and still do) dominate.

The OP is about self defence. Do you need to 'spar' to be able to defend yourself?

You need to be able to fight to defend yourself.

 

[Drose427]

You need to be able to fight to defend yourself.

Tell that to correctional officers, orderlies, doormen, and more who can't for legal reasons or don't fight in the process of defending themselves.

 

[Flying Crane]

ok we will look at this sample of successful fighters.
List of UFC champions - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

do you need proof that that the majority spar?

Given that probably everyone who enters into UFC competition does sparring as part of their training regimen, it's really not surprising that the list of UFC champions do, um...sparring.

That's not even what could be called a limited sample. I'd call that an extremely specialized sample that has little or nothing to do with all but the very tiniest percentage of the population.

 

[Flying Crane]

You need to be able to fight to defend yourself.

No, you don't.

 

[Hanzou]

Tell that to correctional officers, orderlies, doormen, and more who can't for legal reasons or don't fight in the process of defending themselves.

Just because you know how to fight, doesn't mean that you bash everyone's face in during a confrontation.

 

[Drose427]

Just because you know how to fight, doesn't mean that you bash everyone's face in during a confrontation.

Yeah you realize not everyone in these jobs has had any combat/fighting/or restraining training other than the brief training some will get on the job right?

so unless learning to hold down a Patient refusing to relax or a drunk guy is now full on fighting, plenty of folks can't fight and still do their jobs in those fields...

 

[Flying Crane]

Here's the thing, folks. Hanzou engages in a bankrupt method of debate that is often seen in politics. His goals and needs do not include proving his position to be correct. His interests are met if he can simply sow doubt. So all he needs to do is sit there and say, "huh-uh, does not" and then he sits back while others scramble around doing a bunch of work to prove your point in contrast to that. His position requires zero actual work on his part. He doesn't need to hunt down any real evidence to support his position of denial. All he needs to do is repeats various renditions of "I don't believe it" and then throw out some shallow talking point. And then everyone else scrambles around all over again to pile up more evidence to show him where he is wrong. To which he again simply states, "I don't believe" and he throws out another reference to mma and ufc. It's nonsense. We used to see this style of debate a lot back when the site still had political discussions in The Basement.

So I just gotta ask: why does anyone care what hanzou thinks? He's obviously of no consequence in the world of martial arts and in your real lives. Given the track record of debates in which he has engaged, why would anyone care what he thinks? Why does anyone continue to respond to his bating?

 

[Hanzou]

Yeah you realize not everyone in these jobs has had any combat/fighting/or restraining training other than the brief training some will get on the job right?

so unless learning to hold down a Patient refusing to relax or a drunk guy is now full on fighting, plenty of folks can't fight and still do their jobs in those fields...

Holding down drunks as a bouncer and restraining patients as an orderly isn't "self defense".

 

[Drose427]

Holding down drunks and restraining patients isn't "self defense".

........defending yourself or another from a mental patient flipping beds during a psychotic break, or a drunk beligerent by restraining them isn't self-defense?

Solid logic.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

It is the only sample we have... But the you cannot consistently find any evidence that anything else works...There is no data on self defence that we can access.

Yes, there is quite a plethora of data. The Boatman Edged Weapon program has years of statistical data, both in the UK and in the U.S. This is why many L.E. agencies, including mine, have adopted it. No sparring involved. Last statistical data from the North Hamptonshire P.D. for G.B. as a whole indicates that prior to the adoption of the program, officers were injured 78% of the time in an edged weapon altercation (very prevalent in the U.K). After adoption of the program the injury rate dropped to 17%. More importantly, since it is based upon gross motor skill, it is retained in long term memory. This means that remedial training went from annually to every 18 months. Our retraining rate is 12-24 months depending upon the cycle the Deputy is in at the time.

L.E. doesn't use sparring, at least none that I'm aware of when we're discussing in-service training. Rather it is quite often scenario-based training which has already been discussed in other threads.

WWII combatives, possibly the most effective long term program, and certainly amount the most brutal never used sparring. In fact the actual training program was quite brief. Yet again, based upon gross motor skills the retention rate actually spanned into decades. Anyone in the combatives community knows of the effectiveness of the program.

My school never sparred. Yet our own data spanned women preventing date rapes, Correction Officers, Deputies and Baliffs had successful uses-of-force as well as Executive Protection Agents I've taught (one of which is now a fellow Deputy on my shift).

Since we're discussing self defense and not competitions, MMA using sparring as a training platform is not evidence for it's effectiveness or necessity. As noted in this and a multitude of other threads they are two separate animals and one training methodology that is effective in one venue doesn't constitute effectiveness in the other. And as I've pointed out multiple times, one methodology can actually be detrimental for an opposing venue.

Take home point, while sparring may be beneficial in a sport setting, it isn't necessary for self-defense.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Holding down drunks as a bouncer and restraining patients as an orderly isn't "self defense".

This is one of the stupidest things I've seen posted in a long, long time. Someone is trying to hurt you. You stop them. How is that NOT self defense?

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Holding down drunks as a bouncer and restraining patients as an orderly isn't "self defense".

Yes, it can be an example of one specific scenario/situation. One still has to protect themselves (and others) even when initiating the action in a confrontation or over-coming the unlawful use of force of another with greater lawful force designed to regain control of the situation. Our policy and state statute specifically states that we can use greater force (usually one level higher but depends on the situation) to control (subdue/incapacitate etc) and that it is a defensive action on the part of the Officer/Deputy/Trooper. That term is used to encompass both self defense and defense of others.

 

[Hanzou]

This is one of the stupidest things I've seen posted in a long, long time. Someone is trying to hurt you. You stop them. How is that NOT self defense?

Every drunk getting escorted out of a bar, and every patient that needs to be restrained isn't a self defense situation, nor are they always trying to hurt you.

However, we're getting away from the point; If you don't know how to fight, you're going to have a hard time defending yourself.

 

[Drose427]

Every drunk getting escorted out of a bar, and every patient that needs to be restrained isn't a self defense situation, nor are they always trying to hurt you.

However, we're getting away from the point; If you don't know how to fight, you're going to have a hard time defending yourself.

If a patient isn't trying to hurt themselves or others they don't get restrained.....I also specifically said beligerent drunks, which are obviously those who are trying to pick fights or harm someone. Both are dangers if someone is having to intervene. Clearly you haven't worked either job

Still the cop argument.

Most cops aren't actively training boxing or any kind of striking. the only ones I know who have striking training get it from a boxing gym.

Sparring isn't that big of a part of either of the academies in our area.

Again, their focus is on restraining not fighting.

 

[Hanzou]

If a patient isn't trying to hurt themselves or others they don't get restrained.....I also specifically said beligerent drunks, which are obviously those who are trying to pick fights or harm someone. Both are dangers if someone is having to intervene.

Which aren't always trying to hurt YOU specifically. So I wouldn't consider that a self defense situation.

Still the cop argument.

Most cops aren't actively training boxing or any kind of striking. the only ones I know who have striking training get it from a boxing gym.

Sparring isn't that big of a part of either of the academies in our area.

Again, their focus is on restraining not fighting.

There's plenty of cops who train at my Bjj gym. Again, just because you know how to fight doesn't mean you need to bash someone's face in during a confrontation. Ever see the Ryan Hall in the restaurant video? He restrained the guy without ever hurting him. Why? Because he's an excellent Bjj fighter.