Shotokan for self defence.

[Drose427]

I am not saying bjj is best. I am saying get your grappling training from grapplers.

This half,half stuff is going to shoot you in the foot.

"where to get your grappling" has never been the debate.

Boxers hahve proven basics are suffice for your average street attack. Which is exactly what we've said.

If you want more go to Judo or BJJ

you actually knock out drop or submit people in training?

If they dont get out of the way.

We've gotten out the cane many, many times.

Even the 12 year olds get in trouble if their walking thorough it or are too far away,

I dont know anyone whos trained for at least a year who hasnt been dropped, got a chipped tooth, or a broken nose or some other injury at least once because their reaction or timing or position was off.

For the record and sake of general dexterity, we also use Kyukoshin style contact. But we are a Korean style, as was Kykushins founder.

If two adults wanna spar hard, they spar hard.

I've only ever seen instructors intervene once because what was hard sparring become a bloodthirsty title bout. I believe you said you box so Im assuming you know the difference between weekly hard sparring and fighting a full on bout.

Ive worked with many outside schools and again, 9/10s in Bunkai that punch is coming full speed to your face and will go straight through your nose if you dont move. Regardless of if its done in the traditional stance method, as more of a boxing drill, or a combination of both.

 

[Drose427]

dearl(the other guy) was one of our guys. Incapacitation is a real risk in sparring.

Absolutely.

In free sparring we've had broken ribs, knock out, teeth lost, blood peed.

 

[Hanzou]

This is only one aspect.

You realize in free sparring many schools dont even do takedowns or face punches?

No elbows, usually no knees, no headbutts, usually no clinching, etc.

it isnt meant to prepare you for getting punched in the face or defending yourself.

Most schools do bunkai as full speed, contact straight to the center of the nose. All counters legal. Done in both the step way and as more of a boxing drill where your partner can hammer you if you dont react properly so you learn how to defend yourself.

Which is a far more realistic method than one that A. last far longer than an average street fight and B. sets limitations on moves/target areas.

You mean like this?

That's a more realistic method than free sparring?

its funny how folks use the "fight like you train argument" for TMAS, but tell an MMA guy that if hes attacked he wont use groin strikes, gouges, bites, or scratches in an altercation because he trains to not do those things, and they call bs.....

It's doubtful that they would, since those moves have a low chance of being successful, while a choke, break, hold, etc. have a much higher chance of success.

 

[Drose427]

You mean like this?

That's a more realistic method than free sparring?



It's doubtful that they would, since those moves have a low chance of being successful, while a choke, break, hold, etc. have a much higher chance of success.

You do realize thats a demonstration of a drill for the class and not the drill itself right?

Im saying whats most realistic is drilling where you can actually punch to the face, do takedowns, or even hit specific targets that will drop a guy like the groin.

Especially when your average assailant isnt going to bother with footwork, circling, throw a myriad of kicks, etc.

Ive never seen a drunk guy at a bar or a cocky frat boy do either or those.

usually its just some crazy uncontrolled flailing towards the head..

Which is something most schools replicate in SD, not Free Sparring

And oh? So if a chokes not working for whatever reason biting an ear off like Tyson or popping out an eye with your thumb is useless?

Coming from a guy in another thread who said he doesnt take SD training outside of his BJJ?

Id better tell than to Militarys all over the world.

I know for a fact Marines are taught to go for that, spent yesterday training with one fresh outta basic.

Im assume israeli soldiers are too since its a basic part of Krav

 

[Hanzou]

You do realize thats a demonstration of a drill for the class and not the drill itself right?

Then please post an example of what exactly you're talking about.

And oh? So if a chokes not working for whatever reason biting an ear off like Tyson or popping out an eye with your thumb is useless?

If applied correctly, there's no reason a choke shouldn't work. All brains require oxygen to function.

On the other hand, Biting off an ear, and eye gouging, doesn't guarentee that you'll end the confrontation. Evander Holyfield and Yuki Naki were both still able to continue fighting after both of those incidents happened to them.

 

[Steve]

Guys, just fair warning, there's a lot of sniping on both sides of the debate. If you're getting heated, maybe take a break. If you thinks it's all been said and you're just repeating yourself, consider leting it go.

This thread is going to get locked, if you kids keep this up.

 

[drop bear]

Absolutely.

In free sparring we've had broken ribs, knock out, teeth lost, blood peed.

Here it is not a style debate as much as a train with resistance debate.

So if you spar with contact you are going to get results.

 

[K-man]

OK. Let's try another tack. The OP was about using Shotokan karate for self defence and I believe that it is every bit as good as any other style of martial art including BJJ.

Have you guys with limited karate experience ever wondered why karate classes for eight or ten year olds are pretty much teaching the same stuff as they teach in the adult classes? Karate in its early days was designed to maim and kill and here we are teaching the same stuff to an eight year old as we teach to an adult. Clearly what it being taught at that basic kihon level won't kill anyone unless you get lucky with a punch and I'd give you a hundred to one on that.

To imagine that the karate you teach to school children is what was taught in secret as a lethal art a hundred years ago is patently stupid. So why is this the case? Well, as the OP attests, the information is there if you want to find it. If you want to do the same training as the kids do and expect it to be effective in a fight in that form then good luck to you. I don't teach kids for a very good reason. I don't want kids running around at school using the techniques and applications I teach to adults.

Hanzou was only trained to this level. He said so himself. He never saw bunkai and he never saw grappling in his karate training. He wasn't aware that there are advanced forms of the kata. He has only ever seen kihon kata. Every video he posts is kihon. When he joined the forum we had to explain bunkai to him, yet when he posts bunkai to show how unreal it is he still posts kihon. The sparring he posts is mainly point sparring. That is why the traditional styles of karate don't spar. That type of fighting is not real. It has a purpose and if sport is your desire it is a big part of that, but it is not real fighting. That is why Funakoshi was so against the sport aspect of his art.

I think I will slide back into the shadows. I am developing a headache from beating my head against the wall.

 

[drop bear]

Especially when your average assailant isnt going to bother with footwork, circling, throw a myriad of kicks, etc.

they might. My view is if you train for good fighters the crap ones take care of themselves.

 

[drop bear]

OK. Let's try another tack. The OP was about using Shotokan karate for self defence and I believe that it is every bit as good as any other style of martial art including BJJ.

Have you guys with limited karate experience ever wondered why karate classes for eight or ten year olds are pretty much teaching the same stuff as they teach in the adult classes? Karate in its early days was designed to maim and kill and here we are teaching the same stuff to an eight year old as we teach to an adult. Clearly what it being taught at that basic kihon level won't kill anyone unless you get lucky with a punch and I'd give you a hundred to one on that.

To imagine that the karate you teach to school children is what was taught in secret as a lethal art a hundred years ago is patently stupid. So why is this the case? Well, as the OP attests, the information is there if you want to find it. If you want to do the same training as the kids do and expect it to be effective in a fight in that form then good luck to you. I don't teach kids for a very good reason. I don't want kids running around at school using the techniques and applications I teach to adults.

Hanzou was only trained to this level. He said so himself. He never saw bunkai and he never saw grappling in his karate training. He wasn't aware that there are advanced forms of the kata. He has only ever seen kihon kata. Every video he posts is kihon. When he joined the forum we had to explain bunkai to him, yet when he posts bunkai to show how unreal it is he still posts kihon. The sparring he posts is mainly point sparring. That is why the traditional styles of karate don't spar. That type of fighting is not real. It has a purpose and if sport is your desire it is a big part of that, but it is not real fighting. That is why Funakoshi was so against the sport aspect of his art.

I think I will slide back into the shadows. I am developing a headache from beating my head against the wall.

Why wouldn't you teach children grappling. I thought that would be better than face punching from a PC point of view.

 

[drop bear]

If applied correctly, there's no reason a choke shouldn't work. All brains require oxygen to function.

On the other hand, Biting off an ear, and eye gouging, doesn't guarentee that you'll end the confrontation. Evander Holyfield and Yuki Naki were both still able to continue fighting after both of those incidents happened to them.

Sort of. Any technique is as good as the other guys defence. Coming from someone who uses punching to apply rear nakeds.

 

[Drose427]

Then please post an example of what exactly you're talking about.



If applied correctly, there's no reason a choke shouldn't work. All brains require oxygen to function.

On the other hand, Biting off an ear, and eye gouging, doesn't guarantee that you'll end the confrontation. Evander Holyfield and Yuki Naki were both still able to continue fighting after both of those incidents happened to them.

A lot of Abernethys Bunkai Drills are common. He isnt just "inventing" them. He just started bringing a camera to class.

As I said to drop bear, most schools even when doing it as step sparring come out full speed and full power. 90% of the videos on youtube are meant for demonstration so the partner lets the instructor move.

Ive never seen Striking martial art not do this drill.

The demonstrated drill isnt wrong, its the walking through it.

and oh? You'll be able to get whatever takedown you go for? People must pay thousands to learn from you!

Maybe we should just have you teach SD

 

[drop bear]

And oh? So if a chokes not working for whatever reason biting an ear off like Tyson or popping out an eye with your thumb is useless?

Ok. I get where this is going. There is a movement that believes that you can dirty your way out of trouble rather than spend hard work on good basics.

What you want to do is have really good basics and then dirty on top. Then you don't have to compromise.

And tell the military they are notorious for exactly that.

 

[Drose427]

Ok. I get where this is going. There is a movement that believes that you can dirty your way out of trouble rather than spend hard work on good basics.

What you want to do is have really good basics and then dirty on top. Then you don't have to compromise.

And tell the military they are notorious for exactly that.

Actually no, I've said exactly what you just have. In another thread Hanzou boasted he didnt believe in Normal SD training because of his size and BJJ experience.

Thats putting all your eggs into one basket, which is dangerous and potentially deadly.

 

[drop bear]

Actually no, I've said exactly what you just have. In another thread Hanzou boasted he didnt believe in Normal SD training because of his size and BJJ experience.

Thats putting all your eggs into one basket, which is dangerous and potentially deadly.

And i disagree with hanzou a bit on the details of this. Good sport basics. Then good situational defence is optimum.

And. A discussion on mcmap.
MCMAP training not good

 

[Drose427]

And i disagree with hanzou a bit on the details of this. Good sport basics. Then good situational defence is optimum.

And. A discussion on mcmap.
MCMAP training not good

Yeah, fresh outta basic MCMAP isnt as in depth as many people believe.

Kickboxing, some grappling, disarms,etc.

Depending on your MOS you may get more, i.e. security forces get more grappling and restraint training usually.

One of the biggest things they teach is the "kill or die" mindset. It months of hammering that into you.

Before I got dq'd because of a prior shoulder injury, my recruiter was pushing me towards becoming an instructor because I already had many of the skills they learn form TSD, Boxing, and my HS Wrestling.

They dont usually come out as ninja badasses, but they still arent people you wanna end up in an altercation with

 

[drop bear]

Yeah, fresh outta basic MCMAP isnt as in depth as many people believe.

Kickboxing, some grappling, disarms,etc.

Depending on your MOS you may get more, i.e. security forces get more grappling and restraint training usually.

One of the biggest things they teach is the "kill or die" mindset. It months of hammering that into you.

Before I got dq'd because of a prior shoulder injury, my recruiter was pushing me towards becoming an instructor because I already had many of the skills they learn form TSD, Boxing, and my HS Wrestling.

They dont usually come out as ninja badasses, but they still arent people you wanna end up in an altercation with

As opposed to your sports fighter that is inherently mentally weak?

All i train with are people who are strong physically,strong mentality and have no real mental hang ups about hurting people.

The kill or be killed attitude is really only dangerous if the other guy is winning because he may not stop attacking you after you cannot defend yourself.

You don't train to be dangerous when you are winning. You train to be dangerous when you are loosing.

 

[drop bear]

Yeah, fresh outta basic MCMAP isnt as in depth as many people believe.

Kickboxing, some grappling, disarms,etc.

Depending on your MOS you may get more, i.e. security forces get more grappling and restraint training usually.

One of the biggest things they teach is the "kill or die" mindset. It months of hammering that into you.

Before I got dq'd because of a prior shoulder injury, my recruiter was pushing me towards becoming an instructor because I already had many of the skills they learn form TSD, Boxing, and my HS Wrestling.

They dont usually come out as ninja badasses, but they still arent people you wanna end up in an altercation with

A mma program run by an ex serviceman.
Ian Bone Courage under fire TheGo - Townsville s Active CommunityTheGo Townsville s Active Community

 

[Drose427]

As opposed to your sports fighter that is inherently mentally weak?

All i train with are people who are strong physically,strong mentality and have no real mental hang ups about hurting people.

The kill or be killed attitude is really only dangerous if the other guy is winning because he may not stop attacking you after you cannot defend yourself.

You don't train to be dangerous when you are winning. You train to be dangerous when you are loosing.

Nobody has made that claim other than you.....

ACtually no, people train to be dangerous when their attacked. Regardless of winning or losing.

Many, many, many, schools tell you to attack first when you know you're in danger.

 

[drop bear]

Nobody has made that claim other than you.....

ACtually no, people train to be dangerous when their attacked. Regardless of winning or losing.

Many, many, many, schools tell you to attack first when you know you're in danger.

Ok your claim was that the military teaches a kill or be killed attitude that gives them an edge in a fight.

And i don't Think it does because there are plenty of people out there who are trained in strong mental attitude that is every bit as effective as what you get in the military.

And kill or be killed as an attitude sounds a lot better in theory than in practice.

I have fought guys who have had a kill or be killed attitude that were not mentally tough. One does not equal the other.