Shotokan for self defence.

[Tez3]

There is no long before any grappling training. Formalised grappling is one of the oldest martial arts in the world.

You've misunderstood what he's saying.

 

[drop bear]

There must be a word for a statement like that, a lollipop to the first one to come up with a description of that sentence.

There must be a word for a statement like that, a lollipop to the first one to come up with a description of that sentence.

true.
give me my lollypop.

 

[Drose427]

There is no long before any grappling training. Formalised grappling is one of the oldest martial arts in the world.

Is english your first language?

I say this becuase sometimes your syntax is confusing and the sentence you were referring to in no way said any martial art preceded grappling...It pretty clearly said the martial artist had no grappling training.

 

[Tez3]

true.
give me my lollypop.

It doesn't mean anything, it conveys no meaning what so ever.

 

[Hanzou]

Because its continuous tournament style point sparring.....

Full contact isn't very different;

 

[drop bear]

You've misunderstood what he's saying.

probably.

Here is how I see it.

way back when,karate founder A. Had legit judo,sumo etc as well. Did karate and had actual grappling.

At some point the students stopped training in the legit grappling and became crap at it.

Now they are going back to the original idea of cross training and suggesting it was always part of the karate.

 

[Drose427]

Full contact isn't very different;

its still tournament style free sparring vs any kind of RBSD/Bunkai/application training.

Again, you;ve proven you dont understand Bunkai vs. free sparring,

 

[drop bear]

It doesn't mean anything, it conveys no meaning what so ever.

It does in context. It is where we find the evidence that stuff works. It doesn't work because people have been doing it for a hundred years.

That is not evidence.

 

[Drose427]

probably.

Here is how I see it.

way back when,karate founder A. Had legit judo,sumo etc as well. Did karate and had actual grappling.

At some point the students stopped training in the legit grappling and became crap at it.

Now they are going back to the original idea of cross training and suggesting it was always part of the karate.

Except Karate Founder A didnt have an erroneous amount of cross training or hold rank in a grappling style.......Other than Wadu Ryu but Tecz can fill you in there.

 

[Hanzou]

its still tournament style free sparring vs any kind of RBSD/Bunkai/application training.

Even during a black belt promotion test?

Again, you;ve proven you dont understand Bunkai vs. free sparring,

Shouldn't aspects of the bunkai be evident during free sparring? You fight like you train after all.

 

[Tez3]

probably.

Here is how I see it.

way back when,karate founder A. Had legit judo,sumo etc as well. Did karate and had actual grappling.

At some point the students stopped training in the legit grappling and became crap at it.

Now they are going back to the original idea of cross training and suggesting it was always part of the karate.

Well, the founder of Wado Ryu put grappling in, no big surprise there, he was a JJ master as well as a karate one, the students have always done it and still do it. They never stopped doing it. The founder was alive when I started training. We aren't cross training and it's always been part of our karate.

 

[drop bear]

Well, the founder of Wado Ryu put grappling in, no big surprise there, he was a JJ master as well as a karate one, the students have always done it and still do it. They never stopped doing it. The founder was alive when I started training. We aren't cross training and it's always been part of our karate.

yeah that is how it normally gets into the style. The students really need to follow that founders example and keep training in the jits as well as the karate.

 

[Drose427]

Even during a black belt promotion test?

Shouldn't aspects of the bunkai be evident during free sparring? You fight like you train after all.

This is only one aspect.

You realize in free sparring many schools dont even do takedowns or face punches?

No elbows, usually no knees, no headbutts, usually no clinching, etc.

it isnt meant to prepare you for getting punched in the face or defending yourself.

Most schools do bunkai as full speed, contact straight to the center of the nose. All counters legal. Done in both the step way and as more of a boxing drill where your partner can hammer you if you dont react properly so you learn how to defend yourself.

Which is a far more realistic method than one that A. last far longer than an average street fight and B. sets limitations on moves/target areas.

its funny how folks use the "fight like you train argument" for TMAS, but tell an MMA guy that if hes attacked he wont use groin strikes, gouges, bites, or scratches in an altercation because he trains to not do those things, and they call bs.....

 

[drop bear]

Except Karate Founder A didnt have an erroneous amount of cross training or hold rank in a grappling style.......Other than Wadu Ryu but Tecz can fill you in there.

And their grappling suffers because of it.

 

[Drose427]

yeah that is how it normally gets into the style. The students really need to follow that founders example and keep training in the jits as well as the karate.

Then theres those of use whos founders (Hwang Kee for example) had no grappling style training, or our instructors, and I was still able to walk Hanzou through a gi choke from a move in our forms.....strange.....

And their grappling suffers because of it.

Nobody has said it was on par with BJJ or a dedicated grappling style.....many many times we've said its only viable against your common untrained guy.

you should really slow up on the need to imply "BJJ grappling is best" Nobody has contested that and we never will.

The whole point was that there are ground applications. The only people believing anyone has said theres a full grappling system are you non Karateka...

 

[drop bear]

This is only one aspect.

You realize in free sparring many schools dont even do takedowns or face punches?

No elbows, usually no knees, no headbutts, usually no clinching, etc.

it isnt meant to prepare you for getting punched in the face or defending yourself.

Most schools do bunkai as full speed, contact straight to the center of the nose. All counters legal. Done in both the step way and as more of a boxing drill where your partner can hammer you if you dont react properly so you learn how to defend yourself.

Which is a far more realistic method than one that A. last far longer than an average street fight and B. sets limitations on moves/target areas.

its funny how folks use the "fight like you train argument" for TMAS, but tell an MMA guy that if hes attacked he wont use groin strikes, gouges, bites, or scratches in an altercation because he trains to not do those things, and they call bs.....

It is a different argument. You can use groin shots etc. But there is enough hurt in the mma system to incapacitate someone by fighting exactly how you train.

You can incapacitate someone with 16 ounce gloves on.

 

[Drose427]

It is a different argument. You can use groin shots etc. But there is enough hurt in the mma system to incapacitate someone by fighting exactly how you train.

You can incapacitate someone with 16 ounce gloves on.

No not really. When we normally train against some throwing full speed bareknuckle punches dead center to the face by countering with takedown, or most importantly, elbows, punches, and kicks, we can incapacitate someone using the same methods.

The only difference is we dont drill for three 5 minute rounds.

 

[drop bear]

Then theres those of use whos founders (Hwang Kee for example) had no grappling style training, or our instructors, and I was still able to walk Hanzou through a gi choke from a move in our forms.....strange.....



Nobody has said it was on par with BJJ or a dedicated grappling style.....many many times we've said its only viable against your common untrained guy.

you should really slow up on the need to imply "BJJ grappling is best" Nobody has contested that and we never will.

The whole point was that there are ground applications. The only people believing anyone has said theres a full grappling system are you non Karateka...

I am not saying bjj is best. I am saying get your grappling training from grapplers.

This half,half stuff is going to shoot you in the foot.

 

[drop bear]

No not really. When we normally train against some throwing full speed bareknuckle punches dead center to the face by countering with takedown, or most importantly, elbows, punches, and kicks, we can incapacitate someone using the same methods.

The only difference is we dont drill for three 5 minute rounds.

you actually knock out drop or submit people in training?

 

[drop bear]

you actually knock out drop or submit people in training?

dearl(the other guy) was one of our guys. Incapacitation is a real risk in sparring.