Shotokan for self defence.

[K-man]

Attempting to use techniques designed for stand-up fighting is not an answer for ground fighting. Once you hit the ground, your skill set goes out the window, because its not designed for that range of fighting. Now instead of you being the Karateka with kicks and punches coming off of powerful stances, you become the guy on his back struggling against someone on top of them. If he's heavier and stronger than you, you better hope for that lucky throat strike or eye gouge, because he's now in the better position to do a lot of damage to you. Heaven help you if your assailant just happened to learn some wrestling or MMA along the way.

Hanzou, I don't know what you did in your karate classes but it doesn't seem that you learned much at all. Perhaps you were as in attentive in those classes as you have been here. Karate is for all ranges including clinching. Have you heard of cavity strikes? Basically on the ground they utilise your body weight for maximum effect. There are so many karate techniques available. I marvel at your lack of knowledge of them. Then you talk of all the kicks. Well surprisingly for you perhaps we don't use many kicks because we are normally engaged at close range. We use a lot of knees but kicking is normally longer range or for multiple attackers and we don't have high kicks at all.

Punching off a powerful stance? I don't think so. You are talking kihon again. All our punching is from moto dachi which is a natural stance similar to a boxer's stance. This explains how you reckon karate people don't fight like karate people in the ring. You are expecting to see kihon. In a clinch or on the ground, using effective punches at close range is much more difficult. Normally, I wouldn't bother unless I was in a mount. That's why you don't see a lot of punches in kata. Unless you can make distance the punches may have little effect.

Fighting off my back, ok, more difficult, but hat's why we train to get off the ground.

Isn't Dillman that guy who was doing the fraudulant chi KO stuff?

I think I'll pass.

As tshadowchaser said, Dillman in his early days was a pioneer of karate in the US and was among the first to teach the applications of kata in other than the basic way that many still teach today.

 

[Hanzou]

Hanzou, I don't know what you did in your karate classes but it doesn't seem that you learned much at all. Perhaps you were as in attentive in those classes as you have been here. Karate is for all ranges including clinching. Have you heard of cavity strikes? Basically on the ground they utilise your body weight for maximum effect. There are so many karate techniques available. I marvel at your lack of knowledge of them. Then you talk of all the kicks. Well surprisingly for you perhaps we don't use many kicks because we are normally engaged at close range. We use a lot of knees but kicking is normally longer range or for multiple attackers and we don't have high kicks at all.

Punching off a powerful stance? I don't think so. You are talking kihon again. All our punching is from moto dachi which is a natural stance similar to a boxer's stance. This explains how you reckon karate people don't fight like karate people in the ring. You are expecting to see kihon. In a clinch or on the ground, using effective punches at close range is much more difficult. Normally, I wouldn't bother unless I was in a mount. That's why you don't see a lot of punches in kata. Unless you can make distance the punches may have little effect.

Haven't we already established that Japanese karate is different than Okinawan Karate? In fact, you've established that Japanese karate is watered down compared to your Okinawan Karate, since we weren't taught the grappling and ground tactics of "real" Okinawan karate. Since we've already established that, why would my inferior Japanese Karate training be similar to yours?

Fighting off my back, ok, more difficult, but hat's why we train to get off the ground.

Yes, against an unskilled assailant. So if your assailant has some grappling skill, are you simply screwed?

 

[K-man]

Haven't we already established that Japanese karate is different than Okinawan Karate? In fact, you've established that Japanese karate is watered down compared to your Okinawan Karate, since we weren't taught the grappling and ground tactics of "real" Okinawan karate. Since we've already established that, why would my inferior Japanese Karate training be similar to yours?

Hanzou, this is an offensive post. Yes, I have suggested Okinawan karate is different to Japanese Karate and there is a lot of evidence to support this. I have never said Japanese karate is a watered down version. In karate there is kihon and advanced training. I have no doubt advanced training exists in Japanese Karate. Because a lot of Japanese karate is sport oriented, you may not see a lot of the more advanced training until you reach a higher level.

That brings us again to your training. Yes, from what you have posted your training would appear to be lacking because you were taught very little of what every other karateka here had been taught. If you had been taught by a competent instructor we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Apart from distorting the truth yet again, "real" Okinawan karate utilises "real" karate techniques on the ground, not specialised grappling.

 

[Hanzou]

Didn't you type this?

I think the most sensible conclusion is that when Okinawan karate was taken to Japan it was taken more for its health benefits that the actual fighting aspect.

Sounds like a watering down to me, along with your argument that grappling and Tegumi is supposedly being taught widely in the Okinawan systems, and rarely taught in the Japanese systems.

 

[Drose427]

Sounds like a watering down to me, along with grappling and Tegumi supposedly being taught widely in the Okinawan systems, and rarely taught in the Japanese systems.

well for one...Tegumi is Okinawan wrestling

Kendo isn't taught in European Fencing when kendo is Japanese fencing.

 

[Hanzou]

well for one...Tegumi is Okinawan wrestling

Kendo isn't taught in European Fencing when kendo is Japanese fencing.

Funakoshi was Okinawan, as was his Karate system before he clearly "watered it down" for the Japanese audience.

 

[K-man]

Didn't you type this?

Sounds like a watering down to me, along with your argument that grappling and Tegumi is supposedly being taught widely in the Okinawan systems, and rarely taught in the Japanese systems.

What might sound watered down might just be your lack of knowledge of the history of karate or you might be just trolling. In the very early part of the 20th century karate was introduced to the schools in Okinawa as physical training. When the Japanese saw the benefits as in the physical development of the Japanese children they wanted to do the same in Japan, hence my comment that initially it was the health benefit of karate rather than the fighting benefit. Why would the Japanese take it for the fighting benefit when they already had so many other effective martial arts? Or, are you suggesting that the style of karate you trained was better than all those?

When karate was introduced to the University there was a requirement that, like Judo, it had to have a competitive element, but hey, I've already explained that to you in the past.

As to Tegumi. In the main it is in karate as Kakie, not Tegumi as such. But I suppose you didn't come across that in your training either. It was there in my Japanese karate, but I guess like so many other things, you may have missed it.

 

[K-man]

Funakoshi was Okinawan, as was his Karate system before he clearly "watered it down" for the Japanese audience.

Clearly, you never trained what Funakoshi was teaching.

 

[Hanzou]

What might sound watered down might just be your lack of knowledge of the history of karate or you might be just trolling. In the very early part of the 20th century karate was introduced to the schools in Okinawa as physical training. When the Japanese saw the benefits as in the physical development of the Japanese children they wanted to do the same in Japan, hence my comment that initially it was the health benefit of karate rather than the fighting benefit. Why would the Japanese take it for the fighting benefit when they already had so many other effective martial arts? Or, are you suggesting that the style of karate you trained was better than all those?

When karate was introduced to the University there was a requirement that, like Judo, it had to have a competitive element, but hey, I've already explained that to you in the past.

Yeah, like I said, sounds like a watering down of the art. That explains why so much appears to be seemingly missing from Japanese karate.

As to Tegumi. In the main it is in karate as Kakie, not Tegumi as such. But I suppose you didn't come across that in your training either. It was there in my Japanese karate, but I guess like so many other things, you may have missed it.

It would appear that my training would be the norm, since according to Abernethy, grappling is rarely taught in Japanese karate. Maybe I should have sought out an Okinawan school to get the "real" stuff. Right?

 

[Drose427]

Yeah, like I said, sounds like a watering down of the art. That explains why so much appears to be seemingly missing from Japanese karate.



It would appear that my training would be the norm, since according to Abernethy, grappling is rarely taught in Japanese karate. Maybe I should have sought out an Okinawan school to get the "real" stuff. Right?

regardless of grappling, if your training was the norm You'd understand how bunkai/applications correlates with forms.

You are the only shodan I have met in nearly 10 years of martial arts who thought in forms "a punch is a punch." and assume all other Karate schools operate the same way as that.

That is why folks question your training. Not because your school didnt wrestle.

 

[Hanzou]

regardless of grappling, if your training was the norm You'd understand how bunkai/applications correlates with forms.

You are the only shodan I have met in nearly 10 years of martial arts who thought in forms "a punch is a punch." and assume all other Karate schools operate the same way as that.

That is why folks question your training. Not because your school didnt wrestle.

If Karatekas are mastering the bunkai in forms, why do they fight like this?

 

[Drose427]

If Karatekas are mastering the bunkai in forms, why do they fight like this?

Because its continuous tournament style point sparring.....

 

[drop bear]

What are you talking about? One minute you say there is no ground fighting in karate and I tell you we spent the night on the ground doing basic drills to regain your feet. What sort of martial art stops the minute you hit the ground? Get over it!

did you read that in context?

It is more nuanced than no no ground fighting in karate. I would put it more as it is not good enough.

karatekas who have good enough gound fighting are generally getting it from somewhere else.

 

[Drose427]

did you read that in context?

It is more nuanced than no no ground fighting in karate. I would put it more as it is not good enough.

karatekas who have good enough gound fighting are generally getting it from somewhere else.

Coming from someone who doesnt train in Karate, or has ever mention ever training in karate..........

 

[Tez3]

If Karatekas are mastering the bunkai in forms, why do they fight like this?

Bless you, you don't really understand do you? I thought you were trolling and inciting arguments but I've realised now that you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about when you say things like this. By the way in karate it's kata not forms, just saying.......

I don't think anyone is up for yet another explanation of bunkai are they, it's been explained so many times already. As said before we can explain things to you but we can't understand for you..........................

 

[drop bear]

Coming from someone who doesnt train in Karate, or has ever mention ever training in karate..........

yes but has ground fought karate guys.

now if we ever find a karate guy who can ground fight we will find has done judo,jujitsu,wrestling or other specialised ground fighting.

 

[Drose427]

yes but has ground fought karate guys.

now if we ever find a karate guy who can ground fight we will find has done judo,jujitsu,wrestling or other specialised ground fighting.

You have wrestling/BJJ experience dont you?

How many times in this thread had we said a BJJer will win everytime?

If you think the applications we've explained form karate will ever be on the same level as that you've not been paying attention.

Again no we wont always find "hes has done judo,jujistu or wrestling", refer to the karateka in this thread who learned applications long before any grappling training.

 

[drop bear]

Mate, it's hardly worth the effort. I love BJJ and have unashamedly pinched techniques from it to enhance my own training. There are some arts I would never train based on my understanding of them but I could well be wrong. I always looked at Aikido as being a bit wussy, then I found a guy who could make his techniques work and now I'm in my ninth year as his student. Only people with limited understanding bag the other martial arts. Martial arts are there because they are effective, or at least have been in the past. If they now come across as ineffective it is the fault of the instructors or the organisations, not the style itself. How many people would do Tai Chi as their main martial art? I look around and what I see mostly is very poor, but if you look at what Erle Montaigue could do, I'd sign up with him tomorrow.

These guys are straw men. Their arguements make sense to people with no understanding but to those who do understand their arguments are false. We will never convince them so really I wonder why we even bother. Then occasionally someone pops up who genuinely is interested in furthering their knowledge or understanding and that makes the frustration worth while.

sort of.

Martial arts are not there because they are effective they are effective if they are effective. It is again this backwards logic that the martial arts works and is the fault of the practitioner if it doesn't. And is a statement by someone who does not understand martial arts.

Form follows function.

 

[drop bear]

You have wrestling/BJJ experience dont you?

How many times in this thread had we said a BJJer will win everytime?

If you think the applications we've explained form karate will ever be on the same level as that you've not been paying attention.

Again no we wont always find "hes has done judo,jujistu or wrestling", refer to the karateka in this thread who learned applications long before any grappling training.

There is no long before any grappling training. Formalised grappling is one of the oldest martial arts in the world.

 

[Tez3]

Martial arts are not there because they are effective they are effective if they are effective.

There must be a word for a statement like that, a lollipop to the first one to come up with a description of that sentence.