Shotokan for self defence.

[K-man]

Any comment on my assertion that the movements of the kata were fundamentally not the same as the movements of the demonstrated bunkai?

The movements of the kata may or may not be the same as the kata as the turns in the kata represent your position relevant to your opponent. This can be achieved by moving yourself, ie stepping off the line, or by turning your opponent. Furthermore, kata can be 'unpacked'. By that I mean it can be performed in a straight line. This better shows the movement you might find in the bunkai. And, finally stepping forward into a stance say with the right foot is the same as stepping back into the same stance with the left foot. The kata is to teach the sequence, angle and direction.

Interesting assertion, and one that provokes some questions:

Did the creators of the kata not have a specific idea of what the movements of the kata were meant to represent?

Obviously there were movements that the creators intended. But for any given movement in the kata there can be numerous explanations. That gives rise to an infinite number of sequences if you want. It also depends on your physical stature as to what technique any particular move might be. The one certainty is that there are no blocks. A block means that there has been a punch and to say that an attacker must punch at a particular time is purely choreography. Kata works on predicted response. Your opponent blocks or he gets hit. If he lifts his arm to block then obviously your strike has failed so you restrain his arm and attack with the next move of the kata.

If the movements were intended to represent generalized movement patterns that could represent a variety of different techniques as interpreted by the practitioner rather than a set, specific function, then does the exact sequence of those movements in the kata matter (as some insist they do)? If so, why?

First part, spot on. There is no set specific function although some moves are pretty obvious as the groin strike in Seipai kata. But the sequence is critical. If one attack fails you move to the next and the kata provides the information. But having said that there is no requirement to proceed to the next step if a better opportunity offers. In that case you may move to another place in the kata or even change kata.

How close does a movement in the kata have to be to its intended application in order to gain any benefit in skill for the intended application? For example, in the bunkai video by Mr. Ando, do you feel you could improve your skill in the demonstrated ground-fighting applications by practicing the kata with those applications in mind?

In principle yes, but I think it would be extremely difficult to make a kata work on the ground as was shown, at least without an extensive knowledge of ground fighting. In normal kata, yes I envisage what the kata means to me, but in a standing grappling scenario.

Should performance of a kata look different depending on what applications you are visualizing as you practice it? For example, if the practitioner intends a given movement to be a throw, should it look different than if he intends it to be a block? If not, why not?

I don't believe so. The kata is the kata. Kata is kihon or basics. Basics are performed in a particular manner so it should always be the same.

However, there is always the exception. Kata also has an advanced form. It may be in a straight line, it may be performed with different emphasis. If you are performing your advanced form of the kata, then it is yours to do with what you want. If you want to bend with a throw, by all means do that, but, when you are performing the kihon, that is what you must do. When you are teaching, you always teach the kihon. That way succeeding generations are all provided with the same blueprint.

 

[K-man]

It is sad that some people today still think that.

Some people also think kata is a waste of time. Also sad.

 

[K-man]

Again, the point was that karate has no answer when you hit the pavement.

Um, no. And just no! When you hit the pavement, even without advanced grappling skills, you still have a multitude of strikes, locks and holds that are available for you to use. The idea that the moment you hit the ground you are defenceless is ludicrous.

 

[K-man]

now we start with ground fighting karatekas.

What are you talking about? One minute you say there is no ground fighting in karate and I tell you we spent the night on the ground doing basic drills to regain your feet. What sort of martial art stops the minute you hit the ground? Get over it!

 

[Tez3]

That way succeeding generations are all provided with the same blueprint.

I like the analogy to a blue print. I was reading another thread on here about the 'old style' martial artists just practising one stance ( horse stance in the thread) for a very long time and it made me think that it seems people want to have everything handed to them on a plate now, there's no time for taking the long view. Working out the Bunkai of a kata is too time consuming, so everything must be taught immediately, heaven forfend that one should have to work things out yourself. It's all show me, show me NOW! Rather than work on your kata it seems the thing is that you have to be shown every move, every nuance so that you know it's 'real'. And of course you have to video it! We have a joke on an MMA site I go on, whenever someone boasts about some thing, it's 'post video or it didn't happen', it is a joke but I also think it's the way modern thought is angled now, not just to martial arts though, life. Video it or it didn't happen.

I like the blueprint idea, that we are learn good basics and have to work it out for ourselves. It makes sense to me that you do that, there's certain techniques I struggle with because of lack of size or height others that work well for the same reasons, working it out means a personalised armoury of techniques for me.

It does seem that anything that takes time to learn and grow into like kata is looked down on these days, it's a shame, I believe you can miss so much by not taking that time. I don't think any martial art is enhanced by rushing through it, boxing for example looks simple but is so much better when you take time to learn it properly. Patience is a lost art sadly. Style hopping seems to be something that many do these days as well, not cross training but spending a few weeks or months in one style then another then another, always just skimming the surface but never learning much beyond the idea, it's martial arts for the bored and hyperactive. It doesn't enhance your learning just makes you more and more dissatisfied with whatever you are currently learning because you are always looking over your shoulder for the next style to 'do'. To these types kata is always going to be boring and useless I'm afraid. Kata like marriages take work and time spent on them.

 

[K-man]

So as an example more or less grappling than Thai?

Interesting question. Grappling in MT with gloves on is limited and I've not trained in Wado. However, I believe Wado would have about the same as Goju. If that assumption is correct then you would have a lot more than MT.

More or less than boxing?

Certainly more than boxing. Boxing is clinching followed by separation.

 

[K-man]

There's Tecz.

K-man, Danny T and myself have all said this same thing. I'd find more for you but I realized you probably won't read them anyways.

I gave you one and I'm sure k-man can link you all the times he's said it in this thread.

This isn't a question of evidence, this is quite literally just you being unwilling to read earlier pages.

Mate, it's hardly worth the effort. I love BJJ and have unashamedly pinched techniques from it to enhance my own training. There are some arts I would never train based on my understanding of them but I could well be wrong. I always looked at Aikido as being a bit wussy, then I found a guy who could make his techniques work and now I'm in my ninth year as his student. Only people with limited understanding bag the other martial arts. Martial arts are there because they are effective, or at least have been in the past. If they now come across as ineffective it is the fault of the instructors or the organisations, not the style itself. How many people would do Tai Chi as their main martial art? I look around and what I see mostly is very poor, but if you look at what Erle Montaigue could do, I'd sign up with him tomorrow.

These guys are straw men. Their arguements make sense to people with no understanding but to those who do understand their arguments are false. We will never convince them so really I wonder why we even bother. Then occasionally someone pops up who genuinely is interested in furthering their knowledge or understanding and that makes the frustration worth while.

 

[Hanzou]

Yup, in the form it's done standing. But personally, its simply easier to get on the ground. Instead on the sideblock/punch, you use the wrap for them which gives you coverage over your face using your forearms, the option to control or crash their head, and it just plain get your hands there better.

I find it interesting that your bunkai utilizes a training/competition choke as a self defense tool. I certainly hope you guys are learning the modifications of that choke, and not just copying the supposed bunkai with no modifications to real world applications. As good as the cross collar can be against someone wearing a gi, its effectiveness drops considerably against someone not wearing a gi unless you modify it.

And I highly doubt that you guys are modifying it.

 

[Hanzou]

Um, no. And just no! When you hit the pavement, even without advanced grappling skills, you still have a multitude of strikes, locks and holds that are available for you to use. The idea that the moment you hit the ground you are defenceless is ludicrous.

Attempting to use techniques designed for stand-up fighting is not an answer for ground fighting. Once you hit the ground, your skill set goes out the window, because its not designed for that range of fighting. Now instead of you being the Karateka with kicks and punches coming off of powerful stances, you become the guy on his back struggling against someone on top of them. If he's heavier and stronger than you, you better hope for that lucky throat strike or eye gouge, because he's now in the better position to do a lot of damage to you. Heaven help you if your assailant just happened to learn some wrestling or MMA along the way.

 

[andreyshvets]

Application of Tekki (shodan, nidan, sandan)

Application of Heyan Nidan:

 

[Hanzou]

OMG! That is real? No wonder you have such a poor opinion of kata and bunkai. Unbelievable! At its best it is kihon. Beyond that it doesn't make any sense at all. If you want to see some realistic bunkai from Naihanchi, see if you can get hold of some of George Dillman's videos from 25 years ago. They were the first I came across giving a good explanation of bunkai.

Isn't Dillman that guy who was doing the fraudulant chi KO stuff?

I think I'll pass.

 

[Hanzou]

Try telling that to all the folks in this thread doing grappling 20-30 years before MMA or BJJS popularity. The majority of karateka in this thread all did some in their training.

because it does exist. In a simplistic form.

A white belt in BJJ can tap out your average wrestler, is grappling non existent in wrestling on those grounds?

this isn't a "karate grappling vs BJJ grappling" debate. If you actually read the posts you see we've all said BJJ is a far more refined grappling system.

"nonexistent" isn't true. The debate and edginess is because it's been 5 or 6 karate saying its always been apart of their training to some extent, and 2 or 3 others who aren't karateka or in hanzous case, were karateka and yet still don't understand the difference between bunkai and live wrestling.

Well, that would explain the presence of a Judo-based sport choke in an ancient Okinawan karate kata.....

 

[tshadowchaser]

Isn't Dillman that guy who was doing the fraudulant chi KO stuff?

yep Dillman got into that stuff later in life but before he went that route he was one hell of a martial artiest. He knew his stuff and could back up his words back in the 70's then he started his nonsense of no touch.

 

[Drose427]

Well, that would explain the presence of a Judo-based sport choke in an ancient Okinawan karate kata.....

Every grappling tech in karate came from Judo/ Jujustu...they were there in Karate inception too. Nobody is claiming karate invented any of the grappling.

 

[Hanzou]

Every grappling tech in karate came from Judo/ Jujustu...they were there in Karate inception too. Nobody is claiming karate invented any of the grappling.

I never made that argument either. I was simply curious as to why you guys are wasting time learning a sport choke. The collar choke pretty much only works if someone is wearing a kimono, or a business suit. I mean we learn it in Bjj because it's a wonderful choke for competition.

However, for self defense, we would use something else entirely, or use the heavily modified version. It should be noted though that even the heavily modified version has very limited use.

That's the benefit of rolling with wrestlers, MMArs, and other no gi grapplers.

 

[Drose427]

I never made that argument either. I was simply curious as to why you guys are wasting time learning a sport choke. The collar choke pretty much only works if someone is wearing a kimono, or a business suit. I mean we learn it in Bjj because it's a wonderful choke for competition.

However, for self defense, we would use something else entirely, or use the heavily modified version. It should be noted though that even the heavily modified version has very limited use.

That's the benefit of rolling with wrestlers, MMArs, and other no gi grapplers.

It works in t-shirts pretty easily as well. It doesn't require heavy modification, but it does ruin the shirt.

I'm on mobile so I can't link but you can find this on YouTube with relative ease.

This is only one example from forms. A common one we teach because it require almost no change from the actual for whereas other need to be adapted better.

 

[Steve]

It works in t-shirts pretty easily as well. It doesn't require heavy modification, but it does ruin the shirt.

I'm on mobile so I can't link but you can find this on YouTube with relative ease.

This is only one example from forms. A common one we teach because it require almost no change from the actual for whereas other need to be adapted better.

This is true. Collar chokes work great unless you're grappling wit someone who isn't wearing a shirt. Sleeve controls are iffy on anything less than a jacket, though.

 

[Hanzou]

It works in t-shirts pretty easily as well. It doesn't require heavy modification, but it does ruin the shirt.

I'm on mobile so I can't link but you can find this on YouTube with relative ease.

This is only one example from forms. A common one we teach because it require almost no change from the actual for whereas other need to be adapted better.

I'll save you the trouble;

BJJ Self Defense w Street Clothes T-Shirt Cross Collar Choke Gulfport

If you notice, the entry point is different, and the choke has to be modified to compensate for the more elastic quality of a t-shirt to polo.

The notion that it requires "no change" is completely wrong.

 

[Drose427]

I'll save you the trouble;

BJJ Self Defense w Street Clothes T-Shirt Cross Collar Choke Gulfport

If you notice, the entry point is different, and the choke has to be modified to compensate for the more elastic quality of a t-shirt to polo.

The notion that it requires "no change" is completely wrong.

I can't link, but the video is "X choke or collar choke with Allan burresse"

He goes in for the time shirt the same way as the gi. Same hand placement, configuration, and technique.

It should look familiar since you posted it a bit ago.

 

[K-man]

Every grappling tech in karate came from Judo/ Jujustu...they were there in Karate inception too. Nobody is claiming karate invented any of the grappling.

Perhaps not, with the exception of Wado Ryu. It may be fair to say that they were influenced by jujutsu but karate basically originated from China. Almost all the karate kata are variations of the Chinese forms found in Kung fu. That is not to say that the locks, holds and chokes etc are not very similar but the origin is China, not Japan.