Shotokan for self defence.

[drop bear]

We've reiterated it several times, you can almost litreally choose a random page and find someone saying it.

I'm not your mom, if you wanna see it go look.

I'm not their mom either, I'm sure they'll link you to a few of the times they said it when it isn't 4 am.

But if you think anyone other than handouts here has said there's a full grappling system you either:

1. Haven't been paying attention and reading this thread

Or

2. Don't understand the difference application/bunkai training and full extensive live wrestling.

I'm sure you'll see a full rebuttal from k-man and tecz later

you made the statement you find the evidence. It is not about being my mum it is about supporting what you say.

which you haven't done in a surprise twist.

which means that.

1 you haven't read the thread properly.
or
2. You don't understand how bunk applies to kata.

 

[Drose427]

You made the accusation that any of were saying BJJ was inferior or that the grappling and groundwork done was anything more than drilling and applications.

You should probably at least actually read what we've said instead of skimming until you find something you disagree with

 

[drop bear]

You made the accusation that any of were saying BJJ was inferior or that the grappling and groundwork done was anything more than drilling and applications.

You should probably at least actually read what we've said instead of skimming until you find something you disagree with

Where did i make that accusation?

 

[K-man]

Exactly, I have no knowledge of Wado and never claimed such. Not sure why you'd assume that I believe in the existence of no touch k.o.s unless you're just resorting to personal attacks again. If grappling is common in Wado post a link or a pic. You're losing the argument and getting upset, that's why you're resorting to personal attacks. Grappling is not common in karate. Do you agree with this?

You keep asserting that Wado Ryu doesn't include grappling when it is based on jujutsu. Perhaps you can explain to me how you can train jujutsu without grappling. I haven't resorted to personal attacks at all. Practising jujutsu without grappling makes the same sense as expecting no touch knockouts to work. Why would I bother to post a video of Wado. I know what it is, what it contains and where it comes from. If you were to pick any style to say it doesn't contain grappling then Wado would be one of the last ones you would think of.

As to grappling in karate, I do not agree that it is not common. It is very common. What is not common is ground fighting and I don't see that changing anytime soon. I teach enough ground fighting for someone taken to the ground to get back on their feet.

 

[drop bear]

You keep asserting that Wado Ryu doesn't include grappling when it is based on jujutsu. Perhaps you can explain to me how you can train jujutsu without grappling. I haven't resorted to personal attacks at all. Practising jujutsu without grappling makes the same sense as expecting no touch knockouts to work. Why would I bother to post a video of Wado. I know what it is, what it contains and where it comes from. If you were to pick any style to say it doesn't contain grappling then Wado would be one of the last ones you would think of.

As to grappling in karate, I do not agree that it is not common. It is very common. What is not common is ground fighting and I don't see that changing anytime soon. I teach enough ground fighting for someone taken to the ground to get back on their feet.

So as an example more or less grappling than Thai?

 

[drop bear]

So as an example more or less grappling than Thai?

More or less than boxing?

 

[Drose427]

It's not got the technical beauty of BJJ, it's rough and ready but it's there.

There's Tecz.

K-man, Danny T and myself have all said this same thing. I'd find more for you but I realized you probably won't read them anyways.

No i wasn't paying attention. Please show me where they said that.

I gave you one and I'm sure k-man can link you all the times he's said it in this thread.


This isn't a question of evidence, this is quite literally just you being unwilling to read earlier pages.

 

[drop bear]

You made the accusation that any of were saying BJJ was inferior or that the grappling and groundwork done was anything more than drilling and applications.

You should probably at least actually read what we've said instead of skimming until you find something you disagree with

The accusation basically is that karate is cross training in something grapple good and re branding it as karate. Then trying to say that it is not a result of cross training but was in the system all the time.

 

[drop bear]

There's Tecz.

K-man, Danny T and myself have all said this same thing. I'd find more for you but I realized you probably won't read them anyways.





I gave you one and I'm sure k-man can link you all the times he's said it in this thread.


This isn't a question of evidence, this is quite literally just you being unwilling to read earlier pages.

So then why the fifty page rage fest when hanzau claims from a bjj point of view karate grappling is basically non existent?

I mean if a whit belt bjjer is subbing out a black belt karate guy. Non existent while mean might not far from the truth.

 

[Drose427]

The accusation basically is that karate is cross training in something grapple good and re branding it as karate. Then trying to say that it is not a result of cross training but was in the system all the time.

Try telling that to all the folks in this thread doing grappling 20-30 years before MMA or BJJS popularity. The majority of karateka in this thread all did some in their training.

because it does exist. In a simplistic form.

A white belt in BJJ can tap out your average wrestler, is grappling non existent in wrestling on those grounds?

this isn't a "karate grappling vs BJJ grappling" debate. If you actually read the posts you see we've all said BJJ is a far more refined grappling system.

"nonexistent" isn't true. The debate and edginess is because it's been 5 or 6 karate saying its always been apart of their training to some extent, and 2 or 3 others who aren't karateka or in hanzous case, were karateka and yet still don't understand the difference between bunkai and live wrestling.

 

[drop bear]

See in context here I would say my grappling as rudimentary. Enough to get a fat guy off me to stand up or to keep a guy on the ground if i want.

 

[Drose427]

See in context here I would say my grappling as rudimentary. Enough to get a fat guy off me to stand up or to keep a guy on the ground if i want.

This is quite literally what we have said the entire time

 

[K-man]

You as well as some others were suggesting ground grappling was common in karate and Honzou just received inferior training because he didn't do any ground training in karate.

That is a deliberate lie. I have never suggested ground grappling was common in karate. Also I have never stated that Hanzou received inferior training because he didn't do any ground grappling in his Shotokan training. Stick to facts and what has been written. Hanzou is the one claiming his training in Shotokan was a waste of time. He even restated this in one of the earlier posts in this thread.

Now you have backpedaled and completely changed your stance. No one here was criticizing karate for lacking an extensive ground grappling curriculum, what we were looking for was any evidence of ground grappling at all. Which has been shown to exist in early okinawan karate but doesn't seem to exist elsewhere, if so it is uncommon.

Why would you be looking for evidence when you guys are the only ones suggesting that there is evidence. Where it exists in Okinawa is in Tegumi. Tegumi or its near relation Kakie but both of these are standup. Now if you are grappling standing up and you put your opponent on the ground there is a chance you might also be taken to the ground. Obviously we train to regain our feet. That is using rudimentary ground skills, all we are claiming.

I would really question your standing karate game as being effective for knife defense on the ground. Standing grappling and knife defense does not cover principals of position and control on the ground, a BJJ guy would still be better off IMO. By posting that video I was demonstrating that evidence does exist that grappling has been used in karate as was corroborated by Apsokardu in the video. You just have to be willing to look for evidence and present it to the discussion rather than talking in circles and restating opinion.

I'm not sure I have to produce anything. I know what I know, I know what I have trained in Okinawa and I know what I teach. I don't give a stuff what you think because you have no experience in this field.

My credentials? In karate, I have none. I'm here to learn. But i've been into martial arts for almost eleven years 9 of that in FMA as well as a number of other styles, but no serious karate. A JJJ school I trained at incorporated some karate strikes and kata into the curriculum but I don't really consider it in depth. But my credentials really don't matter, this is a discussion and anyone can contribute.

If you are here to learn, great. A lot of people here have many years of experience covering many styles of martial arts. When you start questioning how and what those people train without any knowledge of the subject it should not be surprising that we take offence when you tell us our training is other than what we know and teach.

 

[drop bear]

Try telling that to all the folks in this thread doing grappling 20-30 years before MMA or BJJS popularity. The majority of karateka in this thread all did some in their training.

because it does exist. In a simplistic form.

A white belt in BJJ can tap out your average wrestler, is grappling non existent in wrestling on those grounds?

this isn't a "karate grappling vs BJJ grappling" debate. If you actually read the posts you see we've all said BJJ is a far more refined grappling system.

"nonexistent" isn't true. The debate and edginess is because it's been 5 or 6 karate saying its always been apart of their training to some extent, and 2 or 3 others who aren't karateka or in hanzous case, were karateka and yet still don't understand the difference between bunkai and live wrestling.

see my impression was that judo,wrestling or one of those specialized grappling arts have been part of the well rounded training that were being conducted by stand up guys.

and that is not really the same as hidden in the secret depths of kata.

 

[drop bear]

This is quite literally what we have said the entire time

Yeas and why we set different standards at rudimentary

 

[Drose427]

Yeas and why we set different standards at rudimentary

Not really. Exactly what you said is the exact length.

see my impression was that judo,wrestling or one of those specialized grappling arts have been part of the well rounded training that were being conducted by stand up guys.

and that is not really the same as hidden in the secret depths of kata.

Again, not quite true.

My school has no instructor with any grappling experience outside of what's in our system. I was the first wrestler when I walked in the door.

But we teach the gi choke from our form from both standing and a guard type position.

Applying simple techs to the ground really isn't that hard.

I can't speak for all the branch schools of course, or our grandmasters training in Seoul in the 50s. But I can tell you no of the instructors teaching me have any extensive or comparable ground training.

Not to mention the other folks here who have chimed in about theirs.

 

[drop bear]

Not really. Exactly what you said is the exact length.


Again, not quite true.

My school has no instructor with any grappling experience outside of what's in our system. I was the first wrestler when I walked in the door.

But we teach the gi choke from our form from both standing and a guard type position.

Applying simple techs to the ground really isn't that hard.

I can't speak for all the branch schools of course, or our grandmasters training in Seoul in the 50s. But I can tell you no of the instructors teaching me have any extensive or comparable ground training.

Not to mention the other folks here who have chimed in about theirs.

rudimentary for me is a passable system of basic skills. Non existent is a system with a high percentage of spazzy flailing. Objective I know.

What system do you do?

 

[Tez3]

Didn't admit to not reading to "reading much of the thread", I was just saying that I may have missed something along the way as this thread is now gotten very long. I was't making a personal attack on you as you really were being obtuse, unless you really believe that Honzou thinks that anything that is not on youtube does not exist. But the point is moot. All this discussion has gone in circles to establish that 1)ground grappling is not common in karate and that 2)shotokan is not meant for self defense. Which I have been a proponent of all along.

You decided I was being obtuse not I, you did say you hadn't read posts on here but hey I wouldn't let that stop you judging us or trying to make the remarks personal. You are obviously a very experienced karateka and have trained for decades to be able to decide what Shotokan is, perhaps you trained, like me, in the 1970s? Perhaps too you would share with us your karate training experience? What rank are you in Shotokan? I would love to know who you have trained with, Shotokan has some awesome full contact fighters, have you competed against them?

You jumped in with some pretty wild misconceptions about what has been written, you have now made some wild assertions about something I suspect you actually know little to nothing about. Do you not feel that perhaps you've put yourself in over your head by trying to support someone else's unsupportable position? I mean this kindly to hopefully get you to look at your own ideas not someone elses, hanzou is trying to bully through his own perceptions and ideas about Shotokan, you are standing there holding his coat and shouting support from the sidelines by parroting his words, it's not a good look quite frankly. Hanzou's posts are original and we will debate them with him. You are making assumptions about Shotokan without any proof which is something you accused everyone else of not providing, do you see how this looks? It seems whatever we write has to be proved (condescendingly you said we could draw pictures if we couldn't find a video) but you can make statements with no proof what so ever. Why is that? why are you screaming 'personal attack' at us when it's you who are making it personal?

 

[K-man]

BTW - with all the arguments about what it means for grappling to be inherent in kata and the value of finding new applications in kata, I'm disappointed that no one has responded to a hopefully relevant post I made yesterday: Shotokan for self defence. Page 16 MartialTalk.Com - Friendly Martial Arts Forum Community

You guys don't have to argue with Hanzou all the time. You could argue with me instead. I guess nobody cares enough to tell me why my ideas are stupid. *sniff*

OK! I went back and read your post and to be honest I am very disappointed. What you have posted is very hard to argue against, especially when it is pretty close to my understanding.

Could I give you some advice? If you want me to argue with me don't post information that is similar to my own experience. Perhaps you could misquote me or at least accuse me of personally attacking you. Try posting something bagging one of my MAs, or even someone else's. Another way is to tear down one of the guys who I have looked up to in my training. Start bagging Iain Abernethy or Geoff Thompson, or tell me that Kevin O'Hagen is a fraud. That should do it.

So don't be upset, I'm happy to argue with you ... but if you continue to make logical and sensible statements all you can expect from me is a civil discussion along similar lines.

 

[K-man]

I disagree. There's an intended purpose for every form. Tekki Shodan for example is clearly designed for close quarter fighting against multiple opponents in a limited space. The movements of the kata itself support that interpretation.

Sorry, no kata is designed for multiple opponents. That implies choreography. You are fighting one attacker and the next guy gets into the right position and strikes at exactly the right time in the kata ... I don't think so! Karate kata are all for close quarter fighting and are for one opponent. The turns and angles represent your position relative to your opponent.

Here's the Japanese/JKA Tekki Shodan bunkai, which frankly makes more sense than some of the more liberal interpretations of the kata;

Starts at 7:06

OMG! That is real? No wonder you have such a poor opinion of kata and bunkai. Unbelievable! At its best it is kihon. Beyond that it doesn't make any sense at all. If you want to see some realistic bunkai from Naihanchi, see if you can get hold of some of George Dillman's videos from 25 years ago. They were the first I came across giving a good explanation of bunkai.

In the end, nothing about Tekki Shodan supports the notion that its for ground fighting.

And nobody ever suggested it did. However, the bunkai may be adapted to whatever scenario the practitioner wants it to be. The only restriction is that you follow the rules of bunkai.