Shotokan for self defence.

[RTKDCMB]

.things like the sun going around the Earth, that must be true because someone wrote and actually believed it once, also that the Earth was flat, that too must be still true according to your way of thinking.

It is sad that some people today still think that.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Typically, if someone tells me that "Grappling is rarely taught in Karate", I'm going to guess that they're talking about all forms of Karate, including the Okinawan variety. It also seems odd that Abernethy wouldn't make the distinction since he's talking about a form Okinawan grappling. If you're saying that Okinawan Tegumi is largely absent from Japanese Karate, wouldn't you take great pains to make the distinction that it IS present in Okinanwan Karate?

I think a more sensible conclusion is that Abernethy was talking about ALL forms of Karate when he says that grappling is rarely taught in Karate

I am wondering if Iain Abernathy had said that grappling was common in karate would you be trying so hard to agree with him?

 

[Hanzou]

Again, nobody other than you have said tekki shodan was meant for ground fighting.

since the beginning of karate, Bunkai has has different "groups". Literal, Hidden, and True.

The most basic movement in any for is block to the down and punch.

When teaching a new student, that's how we explain it.

But it's actually a takedown And zero changes need to be made.

Earlier I gave an example of how a punch/block into a hidden fist chamber was in the beginning of Pinan odan.

Again, to those learning the form, that's the movement.

But it's a gi choke, again with no change in technique. The punch/block lines your hands up perfectly to grab the collar.

A takedown and standing gi choke isn't ground fighting.

Again, the point was that karate has no answer when you hit the pavement.

 

[Drose427]

A takedown and standing gi choke isn't ground fighting.

No but that gi choke is easily done from a BJJ guard. I've said that every time I brought it up.

 

[Hanzou]

No but that gi choke is easily done from a BJJ guard. I've said that every time I brought it up.

Oh? And what would be the name of this gi choke?

 

[Drose427]

Oh? And what would be the name of this gi choke?

Couldn't tell you. It's just a gi choke.

 

[Hanzou]

Couldn't tell you. It's just a gi choke.

There's dozens of Gi chokes with dozens of variations.

Are you talking about this;

 

[drop bear]

Ok. So even if your system has grappling you are going to benefit from learning from specialists.

We do it and we definitely have grappling.

Now here is the thingy thing. BJJ has grappling AND learns from specialist grapplers from other systems.

And this is because the specialist are better at it. Better systems and better practitioners.

So a karate guy will be a better karate guy if he also does judo. A BJJ guy will be a better BJJ guy if he does judo.

And you will become a better all round fighter.

 

[Drose427]

There's dozens of Gi chokes with dozens of variations.

Are you talking about this;

The fact that you've pulled up a shodan video when I've clearly been talking about a different form shows how much you're paying attention..

But, walking you through it through text, as best I can (only the actual choke)

Right hand grabs opponents right side lappel knuckles up thumb in. Left hand grabs other side and inverted. Pulling the hands away from each and towards your hip (where we teach because the similarity of the form) causes the choke. Simple common gi choke done in multiple martial arts.

To be fair, in the form we come straight back whereas from your back it has to come out at more of an angle or you'd break your elbow

 

[Drose427]

Ok. So even if your system has grappling you are going to benefit from learning from specialists.

We do it and we definitely have grappling.

Now here is the thingy thing. BJJ has grappling AND learns from specialist grapplers from other systems.

And this is because the specialist are better at it. Better systems and better practitioners.

So a karate guy will be a better karate guy if he also does judo. A BJJ guy will be a better BJJ guy if he does judo.

And you will become a better all round fighter.

I agree, everyone in this thread has

 

[drop bear]

I agree, everyone in this thread has

You would be amazed how much people wander off this idea. The original premise was that karate has pretty bloody non existent ground work.

And now there has been many incredibly entertaining pages about how it is in the kata and the herp derp. Mabye it is. Mabye it isn't. But it is the wrong place to look. Because if you want to understand a thing you have go to a guy who does it.

This has been touched on actually by the suggestion that you do another style to understand the kata. Which is half right. But it is based on the assumption that the kata will contain all the elements of fighting you need to know. You just have to believe in it enough or something which is just dumb.

You cant assume the kata is right based on the fact it is the kata. That is dogma.

 

[Drose427]

You would be amazed how much people wander off this idea. The original premise was that karate has pretty bloody non existent ground work.

And now there has been many incredibly entertaining pages about how it is in the kata and the herp derp. Mabye it is. Mabye it isn't. But it is the wrong place to look. Because if you want to understand a thing you have go to a guy who does it.

This has been touched on actually by the suggestion that you do another style to understand the kata. Which is half right. But it is based on the assumption that the kata will contain all the elements of fighting you need to know. You just have to believe in it enough or something which is just dumb.

You cant assume the kata is right based on the fact it is the kata. That is dogma.

Again nobody here has said to train in Karate if you want Good grappling skills.

The premise is that kata has things that can be applied to the ground. Not that it's some full be all end all grappling system.

Not a single person has made that claim. We've all said in very plain english, if grappling what you want BJJ/Judo are the best ways to get it.

 

[Hanzou]

The fact that you've pulled up a shodan video when I've clearly been talking about a different form shows how much you're paying attention..

But, walking you through it through text, as best I can (only the actual choke)

Right hand grabs opponents right side lappel knuckles up thumb in. Left hand grabs other side and inverted. Pulling the hands away from each and towards your hip (where we teach because the similarity of the form) causes the choke. Simple common gi choke done in multiple martial arts.

To be, in the form we come straight back whereas from your back it has to come out at more of an angle or you'd break your elbow

So is it this choke?

 

[Drose427]

So is it this choke?

Yup, in the form it's done standing. But personally, its simply easier to get on the ground. Instead on the sideblock/punch, you use the wrap for them which gives you coverage over your face using your forearms, the option to control or crash their head, and it just plain get your hands there better.

 

[drop bear]

What rubbish! Our training tonight was almost entirely on the ground although primarily focused on getting up from the ground. Where you get this notion that karate is purely a stand up martial art just shows how much your karate training was lacking, not that karate is lacking.

now we start with ground fighting karatekas.

 

[drop bear]

My style of karate has ground fighting, something that doesn't surprise people who know who the founder of Wado Ryu was.

Wadao ryu are ground fighting machines apparently.

 

[drop bear]

Again nobody here has said to train in Karate if you want Good grappling skills.

The premise is that kata has things that can be applied to the ground. Not that it's some full be all end all grappling system.

Not a single person has made that claim. We've all said in very plain english, if grappling what you want BJJ/Judo are the best ways to get it.

Look at the above two posts and it just rolls on from there.

 

[Drose427]

Look at the above two posts and it just rolls on from there.

Neither one of those are saying Karate Grappling and ground applications are better than BJJ....if you actually paid attention in this thread, you'd know that both of them have also said BJJ was far superior for grappling.

 

[drop bear]

Neither one of those are saying Karate Grappling and ground applications are better than BJJ....if you actually paid attention in this thread, you'd know that both of them have also said BJJ was far superior for grappling.

No i wasn't paying attention. Please show me where they said that.

 

[Drose427]

No i wasn't paying attention. Please show me where they said that.

We've reiterated it several times, you can almost litreally choose a random page and find someone saying it.

I'm not your mom, if you wanna see it go look.

I'm not their mom either, I'm sure they'll link you to a few of the times they said it when it isn't 4 am.

But if you think anyone other than handouts here has said there's a full grappling system you either:

1. Haven't been paying attention and reading this thread

Or

2. Don't understand the difference application/bunkai training and full extensive live wrestling.

I'm sure you'll see a full rebuttal from k-man and tecz later