Shotokan for self defence.

[Drose427]

Would the fact that Sensei Ando also practices Bjj have anything to do with him suddenly "discovering" Karate ground fighting?

He didnt "discover" it, that moves always been there.. Other schools have taught that move that way. Attributing it to him would be like saying the Gracies invented the Armbar. Not to mention the examples Paul D and K-Man gave from other forms if you'd like other examples. At this point, you're simply in denial because your Shotokan was lacking so you assume all else does as well.

 

[K-man]

While Krav hand techs may not be comparable to boxing, they're comparable to the hand techs of other MAs. According to Abernathy, Karate grappling is below every form of grappling out there. So you're not making an accurate comparison here.

I would suggest Krav hand techniques are every bit comparable to boxing. They were taken from boxing and they are trained as a boxer would train. Further they are used without bandaging the hands and using gloves so the alignment of the arm and wrist is critical. What I teach in punching for both Krav and karate is far more technical than I was taught in my boxing.

And, FWIW, I think you are misquoting Iain Abernethy.

We have yet to see any Karate ground game whatsoever. All we're getting are stories of Okinawans playing grappling games with each other. Where's some examples of traditional karate ground fighting? Surely if it's being taught in Okinawan Karate we should see evidence of it somewhere.

No, it is only you who hasn't seen it. I've been training it since I started karate over 30 years ago. Historical evidence is readily available for its origins and there is ample evidence even on youtube of people practising different aspects of it. As you have always been telling us, fights often go to the ground so if Tegumi is the original Okinawan wrestling and it didn't go to the ground maybe we should all learn it for its 'anti-grappling' effectiveness.

What nonsense. How can pull any of that from Tekki Shodan?

There's zero resemblance between the two.

It's almost as if someone learned a little grappling and assigned it to a random kata.

This is simply yet another example of people trying to make Karate applicable for all things instead of simply accepting that it has holes.

No. Now others have accused me of not changing my opinion. Well, I just did. You are right in saying that this is an example of people making karate, or more specifically kata, applicable.

There is no, and I believe there probably never was, specific bunkai for any particular karate kata, Pinans excepted. The secret of the bunkai was to make the sequence of the kata work in a particular situation. Now every kata has techniques that can be taken individually. That could be called Oyo bunkai but to me it is only bunkai when you can take a sequence of techniques and provide a workable explanation. What the video shows is just that. You are on the ground, you perform the first technique to escape. If it fails, you go to the very next technique. If that fails you go to the next technique and so on.

Instead of rubbishing this video I would be commending it. The guy has done a great job in interpreting the kata in a way it can be used on the ground against a relatively untrained person.

 

[K-man]

Would the fact that Sensei Ando also practices Bjj have anything to do with him suddenly "discovering" Karate ground fighting?

Would the fact that I practise Aikido have anything to do with me suddenly "discovering" Karate locks and holds?

No, I recognised that there were locks and holds in the kata and started Aikido to learn more about them and how to apply them. The fact that my original instructor didn't understand them or teach them is the problem we have been discussing all along and that is that much of the original systems have been lost as karate went down the competition path.

If I was forty years younger I would certainly be looking at BJJ more closely but I've seen too many friends with joint reconstructions to even consider it now.

Hanzou, perhaps you could open your eyes to the possibility that there really is more in karate that you were shown in your karate training.

 

[Hanzou]

He didnt "discover" it, that moves always been there.. Other schools have taught that move that way. Attributing it to him would be like saying the Gracies invented the Armbar. Not to mention the examples Paul D and K-Man gave from other forms if you'd like other examples. At this point, you're simply in denial because your Shotokan was lacking so you assume all else does as well.

I must have missed that, because I don't remember Kman and Paul D providing any examples of Karate ground fighting. However the example you provided is a guy who has trained in grappling applying his grappling knowledge to a Karate kata. He wasn't taught this by his Karate teacher. He even says it in that video that he was practicing Bjj and he suddenly had the bright idea that the movements resembled Tekki Shodan.

I'm sure with a little bit of imagination I could make all of Karate's katas resemble ground work. However, that knowledge doesn't come from my background in Karate, that knowledge comes from my background in Bjj.

 

[Hanzou]

Would the fact that I practise Aikido have anything to do with me suddenly "discovering" Karate locks and holds?

No, because there's photographs of even Funakoshi performing locks and holds.

That's quite a bit different than arguing that there's an entire system of grappling hidden within Karate's katas.

 

[K-man]

I must have missed that, because I don't remember Kman and Paul D providing any examples of Karate ground fighting. However the example you provided is a guy who has trained in grappling applying his grappling knowledge to a Karate kata. He wasn't taught this by his Karate teacher. He even says it in that video that he was practicing Bjj and he suddenly had the bright idea that the movements resembled Tekki Shodan.

I'm sure with a little bit of imagination I could make all of Karate's katas resemble ground work. However, that knowledge doesn't come from my background in Karate, that knowledge comes from my background in Bjj.

That is the secret of bunkai. Now if you really could do that my respect for you and your ability would be enormous. The fact that you would be using your BJJ skills to interpret kata is irrelevant. Unfortunately your understanding of kata and how it works in as a fighting system is so poor, I can't see it happening any time soon.

 

[Drose427]

I must have missed that, because I don't remember Kman and Paul D providing any examples of Karate ground fighting. However the example you provided is a guy who has trained in grappling applying his grappling knowledge to a Karate kata. He wasn't taught this by his Karate teacher. He even says it in that video that he was practicing Bjj and he suddenly had the bright idea that the movements resembled Tekki Shodan.

I'm sure with a little bit of imagination I could make all of Karate's katas resemble ground work. However, that knowledge doesn't come from my background in Karate, that knowledge comes from my background in Bjj.

It doesnt come from your Karate training. But many other TMA folks here have said and some have even given examples where ground applications are. We have no Grappling background in our system, but when a movement translates to ground fighting its taught that way. K-mans was the same, he said he picked up Aikido to further this knowledge.

Sensai Ando being on his back and seeing a familiar movement has nothing to with his BJJ training. Even if it was his first day of BJJ, that move would have been familiar to him from the kata. He wouldnt need to be applying any sort of grappling technique or using a wrestling thought process. Unless squeezing the legs together and bringing your hands to your face like in the Real world application of that move is a BJJ technique. A technique feels familiar. If a boxer throws a hook from guard is that because of BJJ training/experience too?

No, because there's photographs of even Funakoshi performing locks and holds.

That's quite a bit different than arguing that there's an entire system of grappling hidden within Karate's katas.

Nobody here has claimed there's "an entire grappling system," your black/white thinking has led you to make this assertion.

 

[Flying Crane]

I'm sure with a little bit of imagination I could make all of Karate's katas resemble ground work. However, that knowledge doesn't come from my background in Karate, that knowledge comes from my background in Bjj.

And for YOU that would be true. But not for everyone else out there.

You keep falling back into what has been pointed out to you over and over: that your experiences with karate do not necessarily match the experiences that others have had.

You clearly feel that your karate experience was lacking and failed to live up to what you were looking for in your training. That could have been for any of a number of reasons, including:
Poor instruction
A sensei who lacked knowledge to teach properly
Your own lack of ability/aptitude for the method
Your own lack of commitment to the training process
The methodology itself was simply a poor match for you and was not something you should have been doing

Given that I'm not in a position to judge you or your sensei, I'll just assume it was the last reason. So you find something else that is a better match for you, that makes sense to you as a training methodology, that lives up to your personal expectations and goals, and you do that. Nobody will fault you for that. I've done it myself, several times.

But when you insist that YOUR experiences are representative of everyone else's, that the training you received is identical to what others have received, and you use that position to paint everything in broad strokes as a reflection of your personal experiences, then you are taking a position of ignorance.

People here are doing you a favor: they have been patient and generous enough to try and give you an education and not simply write you off as ignorant and unable to be educated. Are you proving them wrong? It's your choice. Accept an education, or choose to be deliberately ignorant.

 

[Hanzou]

That is the secret of bunkai. Now if you really could do that my respect for you and your ability would be enormous. The fact that you would be using your BJJ skills to interpret kata is irrelevant. Unfortunately your understanding of kata and how it works in as a fighting system is so poor, I can't see it happening any time soon.

So the secret of Bunkai is to learn a completely different MA and then apply that MA to karate katas in a less desirable and effective manner?

Then you're supposed to pretend that the "bunkai" you created (thanks to the moves you learned from a completely different MA) was in karate the entire time?

You'd seriously respect me more for doing that?

 

[Hanzou]

It doesnt come from your Karate training. But many other TMA folks here have said and some have even given examples where ground applications are. We have no Grappling background in our system, but when a movement translates to ground fighting its taught that way. K-mans was the same, he said he picked up Aikido to further this knowledge.

So you honestly believe that Ando was taught that ground work solely from his Karate training when he himself said (in the very video you posted) that he figured all of this out while practicing Bjj?

Sensai Ando being on his back and seeing a familiar movement has nothing to with his BJJ training. Even if it was his first day of BJJ, that move would have been familiar to him from the kata. He wouldnt need to be applying any sort of grappling technique or using a wrestling thought process. Unless squeezing the legs together and bringing your hands to your face like in the Real world application of that move is a BJJ technique. A technique feels familiar. If a boxer throws a hook from guard is that because of BJJ training/experience too?

Using your hips to break posture, grasping the head to further break posture, open guard positioning, moving to your side to slip out of someone's mount, hooking and trapping the legs in order to sweep, etc. all comes from grappling. In fact, it's fundamental Bjj. The idea that he pulled those nuances from the first 4 movements of a Kata is utterly ridiculous. If Karatekas are truly learning all of that from just 4 movements in the opening of Tekki Shodan ( because frankly his ground work looked very good), then we should be seeing karatekas competing at the top levels of grappling.

Nobody here has claimed there's "an entire grappling system," your black/white thinking has led you to make this assertion.

Well considering that your argument is that Sensei Ando learned all of that from just 4 kata techniques within one kata, there would have to be right?

 

[Dirty Dog]

So the secret of Bunkai is to learn a completely different MA and then apply that MA to karate katas in a less desirable and effective manner?

Then you're supposed to pretend that the "bunkai" you created (thanks to the moves you learned from a completely different MA) was in karate the entire time?

You'd seriously respect me more for doing that?

I think what he's saying is that he'd respect you for recognizing the possibility that the lack lies in you, not in the arts you hold in such contempt.

 

[Hanzou]

I think what he's saying is that he'd respect you for recognizing the possibility that the lack lies in you, not in the arts you hold in such contempt.

How can the lack lie in me when its impossible to learn grappling and ground fighting in your standard Karate dojo?

Additionally, I hold no contempt for Karate. I simply know what it is, and what it isn't.

 

[Drose427]

So you honestly believe that Ando was taught that from his Karate teacher when he himself said in the very video you posted that he figured all of this out while practicing Bjj?




Using your hips to break posture, grasping the head to further break posture, open guard positioning, moving to your side to slip out of someone's mount, hooking and trapping the legs in order to sweep, etc. all comes from grappling. In fact, it's fundamental Bjj. The idea that he pulled those nuances from the first 4 movements of a Kata is utterly ridiculous. If Karatekas are truly learning all of that from 4 movements ( because frankly his ground work looked very good), then we should be seeing karatekas competing at the top levels of grappling.



Well considering that your argument is that Sensei Ando learned all of that from just 4 kata techniques within one kata, there would have to be right?

The movement he demonstrated on his partner were exactly the same as the first moves of the form. You may have a way of doing it in BJJ, but what he demonstrated was right out of that kata, unadulterated, unchanged. I never said where he learned it, but that exact movement is from the kata, is taught in Karate as a means of getting back up exactly as he demonstrated, in schools all over. He said he noticed the familiar movement during BJJ practice, he didnt learn it there. Again, same concept as a boxer using a hook from his back. Its a familiar movement all the same. He even demonstrated and described the movements when teaching form standing in the video as he did from the back. Nothing distinction it as BJJ, especially when the EXACT MOVEMENT is in the video you posted of Tekki Shodan.

Even with zero BJJ training, if he had been working on groundwork he would have recognized that position from Tekki Shodan and would still apply and teach it that way.

Saying he only say that because of his BJJ is giving incorrect credit.

And no, there wouldnt have to be. Thats a pretty simple movement on anyone outside of a BJJ school where you learn how to prevent it.

 

[Hanzou]

The movement he demonstrated on his partner were exactly the same as the first moves of the form.

Really?










The exact same you say?

You may have a way of doing it in BJJ, but what he demonstrated was right out of that kata, unadulterated, unchanged. I never said where he learned it, but that exact movement is from the kata, is taught in Karate as a means of getting back up exactly as he demonstrated, in schools all over. He said he noticed the familiar movement during BJJ practice, he didnt learn it there. Again, same concept as a boxer using a hook from his back. Its a familiar movement all the same. He even demonstrated and described the movements when teaching form standing in the video as he did from the back. Nothing distinction it as BJJ, especially when the EXACT MOVEMENT is in the video you posted of Tekki Shodan.

Even with zero BJJ training, if he had been working on groundwork he would have recognized that position from Tekki Shodan and would still apply and teach it that way.

Then it shouldn't be too difficult to find a Karate instructor capable of doing that with zero Bjj training right?

 

[Flying Crane]

How can the lack lie in me when its impossible to learn grappling and ground fighting in your standard Karate dojo?

Additionally, I hold no contempt for Karate. I simply know what it is, and what it isn't.

Go back and re-read my earlier post, #248. That should clear up your confusion.

 

[Drose427]

Really?

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The exact same you say?



Then it shouldn't be too difficult to find a Karate instructor capable of doing that with zero Bjj training right?

Your links are broken, but the moves in the form in both our videos are the nearly identical. I pointed out the differences to you earlier, now you're simply arguing semantics to avoid the facts several of us have given you about familiarity and applications of forms.

Now that the links work, im gonna note you cropped the top clip short so the move Sensei Ando is actually applying isn't even being shown..

Second, it isnt too hard. Clearly, many of us here from different associations and parts of the world, have instructors capable and have pointed that out.

Additionally, I hold no contempt for Karate. I simply know what it is, and what it isn't.

Except very clearly, you do not. You know what your training was. Where the rest of us can recognize when a movement from a kata can be applied in groundfighting and groundwork and how thats been taught to us, you've have taken every opportunity to say nothing more than, "No, we never did that at my old school so clearly it isnt there! BJJ is still better for grappling!" When many different people from different schools here have explained that its common in Dojos everywhere and effectiveness against a grappler was never the question.

You are the only person who has said anything about these groundwork and grappling applications being on any comparable level to any grappling style. The rest of us have explained them as they were explained to us, in Karate/TSD/TKD as simple applications for groundwork. Not understanding that simple concept of forms and how they relate to applications, you can hardly say you know what karate is. You know the poor experience you had.

When students from unrelated TMAS and Schools all over the world, are telling you there are groundwork applications in forms, that we have all been taught these things and you're denying it simply because of your singular experience at a poor school, its simply misinformed and ignorant.

 

[Mephisto]

are we saying that the demonstrated Kata is commonly known to be a ground kata? This is commonly accepted among those doing the kata in question? Are we still talking about shotokan here or is this kata from another form of karate?

I'm sure I could find some footwork common to what I know in the filipino martial arts in say salsa dancing or the tango or some other dance. But that doesn't mean weapons footwork was concealed in the dance all along. Or who knows maybe long ago one of those dances came from a fencing art? But if that knowledge was lost generations ago and there's no proof, what's the point?

I'm not sure if shotokan grappling is more common than I realized and has been there all along and all competent shotokan practitioners know this, or if my dancing scenario is what's going on and the grappling is a reconstruction of what may have been. as we've seen done with midevil sword arts and pankration which now exist as recreations of what may have been.

 

[Dirty Dog]

How can the lack lie in me when its impossible to learn grappling and ground fighting in your standard Karate dojo?

I've highlighted the problem.

 

[Drose427]

are we saying that the demonstrated Kata is commonly known to be a ground kata? This is commonly accepted among those doing the kata in question? Are we still talking about shotokan here or is this kata from another form of karate?

I'm sure I could find some footwork common to what I know in the filipino martial arts in say salsa dancing or the tango or some other dance. But that doesn't mean weapons footwork was concealed in the dance all along. Or who knows maybe long ago one of those dances came from a fencing art? But if that knowledge was lost generations ago and there's no proof, what's the point?

I'm not sure if shotokan grappling is more common than I realized and has been there all along and all competent shotokan practitioners know this, or if my dancing scenario is what's going on and the grappling is a reconstruction of what may have been. as we've seen done with midevil sword arts and pankration which now exist as recreations of what may have been.

We're saying the same thing we've been the whole time. Kata has some ground applications, not just shotokan but across TMA's, many people here have concurred. It's always been taught that way at my school, other posters here have said their experiences were similar in that when part of a kata can be applied to groundwork, it is. Someone posted a link to a book where early founders were discussing grappling in Karate. Im sure some schools are just analyzing and may be "reconstructing" as you put it, but for many of us it was part of day one of our training, of our instructors, and of their instructors.

By the number of folks here who have said there are groundwork applications in their forms, I wouldn't call it rare.

 

[Mephisto]

We're saying the same thing we've been the whole time. Kata has some ground applications, not just shotokan but across TMA's, many people here have concurred. It's always been taught that way at my school, other posters here have said their experiences were similar in that when part of a kata can be applied to groundwork, it is. Someone posted a link to a book where early founders were discussing grappling in Karate. Im sure some schools are just analyzing and may be "reconstructing" as you put it, but for many of us it was part of day one of our training, of our instructors, and of their instructors.

By the number of folks here who have said there are groundwork applications in their forms, I wouldn't call it rare.

Cool, if you say so. I trained TSD in a limited capacity and learned a few forms but nothing ever touched on ground fighting but I'm not gonna say that reflects what everybody else does or knows.