Shotokan for self defence.

[Hanzou]

Hanzou: serious question, what do you believe is contained in kata? Do you understand the difference between a technique and a principle? Do you see kata as an exercise in the practice of technique, or the practice of principles, or both, or neither, or something else?

Second serious question: do you recognize that many similar or identical techniques are found in common with many different systems of martial art?

By way of example, in my own time in training I've noticed capoeira has techniques in common with judo and with Kenpo. White crane has techniques in common with Kenpo and wing Chun and capoeira. Kenpo has techniques in common with Dan zan Ryu and judo.

My point being, curriculum does not exist in a vacuum. No curriculum of any system is truly unique to itself. Is that a point you would agree with?

Absolutely, but there's a difference between what you're describing and what we're discussing. In this case we have a karateka performing basic Bjj, and stating that it's some hidden grappling in a fairly advanced shotokan kata.

Did I mention that this guy also studied Bjj?

So what's the more likely scenario? That this guy is performing standard Bjj fundamentals, or that he discovered some hidden grappling sequence hidden within a kata that isn't even designed for ground fighting in the first place?

Well, I can find several Bjj vids showing precisely the techniques he was doing. The only Tekki Shodan bunkai based on ground fighting is his own.

The same applies to Abernethy; Is he performing a super secret hidden kata bunkai, or a basic Bjj mount escape?

Here's the deal; If Karatekas can learn this top secret karate grappling bunkai from a month of Bjj training, why waste time trying to decipher advanced kata in the first place?

Just sign up for Bjj classes. Just like Sensei Ando did.

 

[Flying Crane]

Absolutely, but there's a difference between what you're describing and what we're discussing. In this case we have a karateka performing basic Bjj, and stating that it's some hidden grappling in a fairly advanced shotokan kata.

Did I mention that this guy also studied Bjj?

So what's the more likely scenario? That this guy is performing standard Bjj fundamentals, or that he discovered some hidden grappling sequence hidden within a kata that isn't even designed for ground fighting in the first place?

Well, I can find several Bjj vids showing precisely the techniques he was doing. The only Tekki Shodan bunkai based on ground fighting is his own.

The same applies to Abernethy; Is he performing a super secret hidden kata bunkai, or a basic Bjj mount escape?

Here's the deal; If Karatekas can learn this top secret karate grappling bunkai from a month of Bjj training, why waste time trying to decipher advanced kata in the first place?

Just sign up for Bjj classes. Just like Sensei Ando did.

Im still waiting for you to actually answer my questions. None of the responses have done so.

 

[Drose427]

Absolutely, but there's a difference between what you're describing and what we're discussing. In this case we have a karateka performing basic Bjj, and stating that it's some hidden grappling in a fairly advanced shotokan kata.

Did I mention that this guy also studied Bjj?

So what's the more likely scenario? That this guy is performing standard Bjj fundamentals, or that he discovered some hidden grappling sequence hidden within a kata that isn't even designed for ground fighting in the first place?

Well, I can find several Bjj vids showing precisely the techniques he was doing. The only Tekki Shodan bunkai based on ground fighting is his own.

The same applies to Abernethy; Is he performing a super secret hidden kata bunkai, or a basic Bjj mount escape?

Here's the deal; If Karatekas can learn this top secret karate grappling bunkai from a month of Bjj training, why waste time trying to decipher advanced kata in the first place?

Just sign up for Bjj classes. Just like Sensei Ando did.

What about the example I gave? My grappling experience is limited to HS wrestling and walked you through a simple Gi choke from one of our forms. Paul D gave an abernathy example from another form.

Again, your video argument is moot. If you can't even find basic Karate form videos, how you can expect to see application videos?

it isnt some "super secret bunkai" theyre pretty basic movements. Any gold belt should be able to pick out moves from a kata any adapt them anyways, it doesnt take much to do it for the ground. If your single school couldnt do this, but all of ours have you have to wonder what the majority training really is. Quite frankly, if you dont know how to adapt a move from a kata, you have no business doing kata. You're not training, you're dancing. At that point you clearly havent been paying attention.

For many people its not as simple as "signing up for BJJ." For a variety of reasons. Our cheapest BJJ school in the area is 450 a month. Our cheapest across 5 towns, is more expensive than any 2 of the other martial art schools in the area combined. I've never seen a BJJ school priced less than 100 a month. for 450 in my area, you can get Judo/Aikido, TSD, and Fire Arms Training. Rather do a sport/competition focus? You can still afford one of the other Boxing/MMA gyms but they dont teach traditional BJJ(wrestlings their base although Im sure they have some familiarity with BJJ), and another Martial Art.

Idk about you, but unless BJJ is some ultimate Action Movie greatest in the world, self defense system, I'm not paying an erroneous amount of money each month for dues when I can get far more training and experience elsewhere. Add that on to the fact that many people dont wanna groundfight. Theyd rather focus their training elsewhere, especially if else includes some type of groundfighting or ground defense or they already have a wrestling background. Which is more than enough to handle the untrained. Or maybe they cant afford BJJ in addition to the art they enjoy.

This is just the money argument. Theres also time and scheduling conflicts, injuries that affects ones ability to grab anything in the first place.

 

[Flying Crane]

I guess I need to ask another question to hanzou: do you believe that karate has a specific body of techniques, and anything outside of that specific body of techniques is not karate?

So... Everything a karate guy does will be found within a kata somewhere, and kata is the "rule book" of what a karateka is allowed to do, in combat or in defending himself?

 

[RTKDCMB]

How can the lack lie in me when its impossible to learn grappling and ground fighting in your standard Karate dojo?

Not being able to recognize your own flaws is a flaw in itself.

 

[Hanzou]

What about the example I gave? My grappling experience is limited to HS wrestling and walked you through a simple Gi choke from one of our forms. Paul D gave an abernathy example from another form.

That does nothing for me. I would need to see some footage to be able to judge completely. Like that Abernathy vid you posted. Thanks to that, I was immediately able to tell what he was doing, and it was a very basic Bjj mount escape.

Again, your video argument is moot. If you can't even find basic Karate form videos, how you can expect to see application videos?

I don't get your meaning here. Are you saying that the vids I posted weren't legit kata videos? One of those vids used to be on the JKA website as an example of how to perform the kata properly.

it isnt some "super secret bunkai" theyre pretty basic movements. Any gold belt should be able to pick out moves from a kata any adapt them anyways, it doesnt take much to do it for the ground. If your single school couldnt do this, but all of ours have you have to wonder what the majority training really is. Quite frankly, if you dont know how to adapt a move from a kata, you have no business doing kata. You're not training, you're dancing. At that point you clearly havent been paying attention.

Uh, Tekki Shodan is a fairly advanced kata. Most Shotokan schools don't teach it until Purple/Brown belt levels. Again, the stuff Ando was doing was fundamental Bjj stuff, and if your argument is to be believed, he took Tekki Shodan, placed it on the ground, and modified it to the point where it somehow looked exactly like fundamental Bjj.

Also I simply don't believe that the majority are being taught any of this. If they were, we'd have more than one example (who just happened to take Bjj), and we'd have more than just the first 4 movements of Tekki Shodan, and it wouldn't look almost exactly like Bjj.

 

[Hanzou]

Seriously? You are now questioning the well documented history of karate?

Its so well documented that most articles about this are less than 20 years old. Popping up right about the same time karate dojos started losing significant ground to MMA. It's a smart tactic, since people are concerned about grappling, or how to stop grapplers. It's pretty convenient to rediscover your long lost grappling art hidden in your katas from 100 years ago.

Mmm! Interesting this newfound respect for Iain Abernethy (even with the snide comment to finish). Eighteen months ago when I posted some of his video to demonstrate the application of kata you dismissed his work as not realistic.

Oh, I still view his work the same way. I just respect the man for making a living doing what he loves to do. And heck, since everyone else is riding the grappling wave, so can he.

 

[Drose427]

That does nothing for me. I would need to see some footage to be able to judge completely. Like that Abernathy vid you posted. Thanks to that, I was immediately able to tell what he was doing, and it was a very basic Bjj mount escape.



I don't get your meaning here. Are you saying that the vids I posted weren't legit kata videos? One of those vids used to be on the JKA website as an example of how to perform the kata properly.



Uh, Tekki Shodan is a fairly advanced kata. Most Shotokan schools don't teach it until Purple/Brown belt levels. Again, the stuff Ando was doing was fundamental Bjj stuff, and if your argument is to be believed, he took Tekki Shodan, placed it on the ground, and modified it to the point where it somehow looked exactly like fundamental Bjj.

Also I simply don't believe that the majority are being taught any of this. If they were, we'd have more than one example (who just happened to take Bjj), and we'd have more than just the first 4 movements of Tekki Shodan, and it wouldn't look almost exactly like Bjj.

We've given you multiple examples, from 3 or 4 different forms. Tekki shodan is an advanced form yeah, but it's not the only one. Picking a part of a form for SD and applying it is the same at all levels, it's basic stuff. Again when 5 strangers can give you examples, you should really think about how "rare" something can be. You still haven't explained how lack of video means it doesn't exist. The only video of my entire associations forms that im aware of online are exerpts in demos, brief show in tournament recordings, and one of Bassai my instructor did to compare how we do it compared to others here. This is across 6 branch schools and a main school. I suppose we don't do contact drills or bag work because they aren't in the videos?

Again, Are pathologists not able to do physicals because there isn't videos of this?

You do realize that's just one associations forms right? And even then you can't find videos of every for in their association. My meaning was pretty clear.

Not everyone has the time or interest in making YouTube videos. Using YouTube as a guide...I mean it just sounds bad itself..

 

[Hanzou]

I guess I need to ask another question to hanzou: do you believe that karate has a specific body of techniques, and anything outside of that specific body of techniques is not karate?

Pretty much.

For example, Floyd Mayweather doesn't do Karate. Rickson Gracie didn't do karate.

Karate is a fairly distinct set of martial arts. You recognize it almost immediately when you see it. At least I can, since I spent quite a few years in it.

I know that Elbow escapes, trap and rolls, and the Guard definitely isn't Karate.

So... Everything a karate guy does will be found within a kata somewhere, and kata is the "rule book" of what a karateka is allowed to do, in combat or in defending himself?

Everyone performs their personal fighting style when they're in combat or defending themselves. Again, the argument here is that the creators hid away entirely different martial arts systems within the katas. Sorry, I just don't buy it.

 

[Drose427]

Its so well documented that most articles about this are less than 20 years old. Popping up right about the same time karate dojos started losing significant ground to MMA. It's a smart tactic, since people are concerned about grappling, or how to stop grapplers. It's pretty convenient to rediscover your long lost grappling art hidden in your katas from 100 years ago.

Except it isnt.. in the book exert Paul d quoted from Funakoshis book they're discussing how Funakoshis is explaining how tegumi from his youth training in Okinawa karate helped him create Shotokan. The book was My Way of Life I believe, which came out in the 70s, long before the time of Karate "started losing significant ground". At this point, I'm assuming you're not even reading the information we'recommend giving you

 

[Drose427]

Pretty much.

For example, Floyd Mayweather doesn't do Karate. Rickson Gracie didn't do karate.

Karate is a fairly distinct set of martial arts. You recognize it almost immediately when you see it. At least I can, since I spent quite a few years in it.

I know that Elbow escapes, trap and rolls, and the Guard definitely isn't Karate.



Everyone performs their personal fighting style when they're in combat or defending themselves. Again, the argument here is that the creators hid away entirely different martial arts systems within the katas. Sorry, I just don't buy it.

No, the argument was never that there was an "entire system hidden away". You are quite literally the only one carrying that torch.

 

[Flying Crane]

Pretty much.

For example, Floyd Mayweather doesn't do Karate. Rickson Gracie didn't do karate.

Karate is a fairly distinct set of martial arts. You recognize it almost immediately when you see it. At least I can, since I spent quite a few years in it.

I know that Elbow escapes, trap and rolls, and the Guard definitely isn't Karate.



Everyone performs their personal fighting style when they're in combat or defending themselves. Again, the argument here is that the creators hid away entirely different martial arts systems within the katas. Sorry, I just don't buy it.

I'm not selling anything. I'm trying to gauge what you do and do not understand.

Care to answer my earlier questions?

 

[Hanzou]

But that's a side issue. The secret is not to learn another martial art to apply it to a karate kata, but learning another martial art may help you understand your own system better. Now we have already established that your Shotokan training was way less than optimal. If the instructors are training you for karate style competition I wouldn't be expecting a lot of ground work or grappling.

The kata posted is Tekki Shodan, we know it as Naihanchi Shodan. It is not a traditional Goju kata but it was obviously recognised by someone higher up in Goju as a kata worth learning. The first real karate bunkai I saw was George Dillman demonstrating Naihanchi bunkai. It was all stand up grappling and the only groundwork was takedowns. In recent years I have virtually given it away to concentrate on the Goju kata and bunkai. Now I will revisit Naihanchi with different eyes.

Hanzou, bunkai is what it means to you, not what it meant to some Chinese guy two hundred years ago. A lot of my bunkai I have worked by reverse engineering. It doesn't matter how you arrive at your understanding. The important thing is that the sequence of techniques works for you. If that includes BJJ, Judo, Aikido or Capoiera techniques, fantastic, go for it. Karate can evolve just as BJJ is evolving. There are dozens of techniques in kata that people will tell you are 'blocks'. It was pointed out to me many years ago that there can't be blocks in the kata or it becomes choreography. That made me question whether indeed there were any blocks in karate, period. Any particular movement may have multiple applications. There is nothing to say they can't be used on the ground.

I remember being told years ago that kata could be used on the ground but I never really explored that option. Now that Ando has shown the possibility of use of bunkai on the ground I'll start to explore it a bit more.

Martial Arts evolve via pressure testing techniques, discarding flawed techniques, and embracing more effective ones. They also evolve by admitting their shortcomings and seeking methods to fill those shortcomings.

Martial Arts do not evolve by actively taking techniques from other systems and pretending that they've been within that system the entire time.

 

[Drose427]

Martial Arts evolve via pressure testing techniques, discarding flawed techniques, and embracing more effective ones. They also evolve by admitting their shortcomings and seeking methods to fill those shortcomings.

Martial Arts do not evolve by actively taking techniques from other systems and pretending that they've been within that system the entire time.

We'vw given you articles and books of funakoshi discussing grappling, it's applications in shotokan and how it pertains to tegumi and groundWork, some 20 years before the rise of MMA and BJJ. Hard to claim "it's a modern invention we'really adding i" when master were discussing ground applications some 40 years prior.

We've also given you other examples than andos. Me and Paul D gave examples from 2 Pinan forms.

You're simply ignoring the information we're giving you and nitpicking what fits your opinion.

 

[Tez3]

We'vw given you articles and books of funakoshi discussing grappling, it's applications in shotokan and how it pertains to tegumi and groundWork, some 20 years before the rise of MMA and BJJ. Hard to claim "it's a modern invention we'really adding i" when master were discussing ground applications some 40 years prior.

We've also given you other examples than andos. Me and Paul D gave examples from 2 Pinan forms.

You're simply ignoring the information we're giving you and nitpicking what fits your opinion.

This has been the case all along, in countless other threads now the same information has been given and still it's ignored because some are so invested in having only their style of martial arts being the 'correct' one, the one that works that there is no room to accept what others are saying. It could become beyond frustrating that time and time again the value of karate is devalued and misunderstood simply because one person had an unsatisfactory experience in one particular style, with one particular instructor and one particular school. That doesn't make it true that every karateka all around the world is doing the same thing, when experienced karateka tell you how they are training, when they tell you what is in there classes and teaching why would you disbelieve them?
Drose427, your replies have consistently been patient and informative, I really believe you can do no more, it was a valiant effort and I for one appreciate it but like me it's probably time to give up as nothing is going to persuade some that we do what we say we do.

 

[Hanzou]

We'vw given you articles and books of funakoshi discussing grappling, it's applications in shotokan and how it pertains to tegumi and groundWork, some 20 years before the rise of MMA and BJJ. Hard to claim "it's a modern invention we'really adding i" when master were discussing ground applications some 40 years prior.

We've also given you other examples than andos. Me and Paul D gave examples from 2 Pinan forms.

You're simply ignoring the information we're giving you and nitpicking what fits your opinion.

Funakoshi reminiscing about wrestling in his youth isn't the same as an active system of ground fighting existing and being practiced within Shotokan. It also isn't the same as the recent explosion of grappling popping up in traditional MA systems that previously had very little in the way of grappling. Again, I have no problem acknowledging standing locks and holds within Karate, it's the ground fighting like in that Sensei Ando video that I don't believe.

It's like Wing Chun anti-grappling. Instead of simply admitting that anti-grappling was created as a response to the rise of Bjj and MMA, exponents concocted some nutty story about how it was invented by the founder of the system itself. The Karate situation is a bit more pervasive, because you have karate exponents simply incorporating modern grappling and saying that its Tegumi, or kata Bunkai. You did it earlier, stating that Ando's and Abernethy's pretty clear display of Bjj technique was in fact Karate bunkai.

It's a good marketing ploy. Wish I had thought of it.

 

[Mephisto]

What about the example I gave? My grappling experience is limited to HS wrestling and walked you through a simple Gi choke from one of our forms. Paul D gave an abernathy example from another form.

Again, your video argument is moot. If you can't even find basic Karate form videos, how you can expect to see application videos?

it isnt some "super secret bunkai" theyre pretty basic movements. Any gold belt should be able to pick out moves from a kata any adapt them anyways, it doesnt take much to do it for the ground. If your single school couldnt do this, but all of ours have you have to wonder what the majority training really is. Quite frankly, if you dont know how to adapt a move from a kata, you have no business doing kata. You're not training, you're dancing. At that point you clearly havent been paying attention.

For many people its not as simple as "signing up for BJJ." For a variety of reasons. Our cheapest BJJ school in the area is 450 a month. Our cheapest across 5 towns, is more expensive than any 2 of the other martial art schools in the area combined. I've never seen a BJJ school priced less than 100 a month. for 450 in my area, you can get Judo/Aikido, TSD, and Fire Arms Training. Rather do a sport/competition focus? You can still afford one of the other Boxing/MMA gyms but they dont teach traditional BJJ(wrestlings their base although Im sure they have some familiarity with BJJ), and another Martial Art.

Idk about you, but unless BJJ is some ultimate Action Movie greatest in the world, self defense system, I'm not paying an erroneous amount of money each month for dues when I can get far more training and experience elsewhere. Add that on to the fact that many people dont wanna groundfight. Theyd rather focus their training elsewhere, especially if else includes some type of groundfighting or ground defense or they already have a wrestling background. Which is more than enough to handle the untrained. Or maybe they cant afford BJJ in addition to the art they enjoy.

This is just the money argument. Theres also time and scheduling conflicts, injuries that affects ones ability to grab anything in the first place.

$450 a month? Do they train world class athletes? That seems ridiculous. Did you say &450 is for bjj and a variety of other arts? Surely you can train just bjj for less. Seems like for that price they'd havevdifferent levels of membership.

I guess I need to ask another question to hanzou: do you believe that karate has a specific body of techniques, and anything outside of that specific body of techniques is not karate?

So... Everything a karate guy does will be found within a kata somewhere, and kata is the "rule book" of what a karateka is allowed to do, in combat or in defending himself?

I dont think anyone would say that there's a system limits what you can do in an actual fight but if a bjj guy were to throw a high kick I'd say that he's not doing bjj. Some bjj guys do throw low leg checking kicks but it is part of the bjj syllabus? Has kicking been part of bjj all along?

 

[Drose427]

Funakoshi reminiscing about wrestling in his youth isn't the same as an active system of ground fighting existing and being practiced within Shotokan. It also isn't the same as the recent explosion of grappling popping up in traditional MA systems that previously had very little in the way of grappling. Again, I have no problem acknowledging standing locks and holds within Karate, it's the ground fighting like in that Sensei Ando video that I don't believe.

It's like Wing Chun anti-grappling. Instead of simply admitting that anti-grappling was created as a response to the rise of Bjj and MMA, exponents concocted some nutty story about how it was invented by the founder of the system itself. The Karate situation is a bit more pervasive, because you have karate exponents simply incorporating modern grappling and saying that its Tegumi, or kata Bunkai. You did it earlier, stating that Ando's and Abernethy's pretty clear display of Bjj technique was in fact Karate bunkai.

It's a good marketing ploy. Which I had thought of it.

If you actually read the excerpts, funakoshi goes in to talking about specific techniques..and how he trained them as a part of his karate Training and taught them until modernization and commercialization..as have several of us here, you keep ignoring the examples we give you.

Again, nobody other than you has claimed there's an active ground system.

You seem to have an issue distinctive between continously free-rolling, and applying moves from kata, which shows you don't really understand bunkai. Which is the fault of your instructor.

You still havent answered many of flying cranes questions, or explained how a lack of youtube prescense means something doesnt exist, or chimed in to my explanation that "simply taking BJJ" isnt possible or even the best cjoice for everyone. We've given you exact examples from multiple forms, books, articles with more historical texts long before BJJ even came into the picture (nullifying the "modern invention to keep up with BJJ" argument )You keep ignoring evidence that doesn't fit your opinion. I'm done repeating myself and the other guys hear.

$450 a month? Do they train world class athletes? That seems ridiculous. Did you say &450 is for bjj and a variety of other arts? Surely you can train just bjj for less. Seems like for that price they'd havevdifferent levels of membership.

I dont think anyone would say that there's a system limits what you can do in an actual fight but if a bjj guy were to throw a high kick I'd say that he's not doing bjj. Some bjj guys do throw low leg checking kicks but it is part of the bjj syllabus? Has kicking been part of bjj all along?

the 450 one has Boxing too The MMA gym claiming Helios Gracie lineage (I haven't checked they're full lineage) is 250 or adult BJJ alone. Self defense and no-gi are an additional 50. The full MMA package I'd close to 5, but the striking is limited to American kickboxing. which quite frankly, is subpar. Their BJJ from what i hear is good in the competitive aspect, but the price is outrageous. Are all BJJ schools that bad? Of course not, i briught up my local gyms to give an example of how "simply takeing BJJ" isnt always an option.

Generally speaking though, BJJ is expensive, one of the most expensive arts. It's popular and commercialized and folks know they can milk their students regardless of the quality of their training. Their are boxers who are subpar because of poor instruction but never bother to see how their instructors line up with other gyms. They just think it's all on them. That's the flaw in the "sports have a public funnel argument". if it made every gym good, there'd be no sub part guys.

The issue is the ground and standing applications of kata as locks and hold come from Judo and Jujustu, as did BJJ. Nobody here is claiming or has claimed "well this gi choke is solely karate!" That's like a BJJ guy saying they invented the armbar. Every grapple, lock, and choke application we use and teach from our kata, is usually taught in Judo or Japanese Jutusu and drilled in Randori. Nobody other than Hanzou believes or has been arguing that Funakoshi invented an entire grappling system. We've all said that whats there is basic and meant for the untrained and isnt randori Or free rolling. Any competive grappler is in a different league. Tegumi was nothing more than Okinawa wrestling Funakoshi trained in, brought to karate, then taught with his karate until full modernization. In his book he talks about specific techs karate should still be drilling. All he did, was take grappling elements and put them in forms. Many just like a BJJ rear naked, they can be done standing or from the ground.

There are strikes in Japanese Jujustu, contrary to popular belief. When a Japanese Jujustu guy with zero cross training throws a punch or kick, is he now using a different martial art?

 

[Hanzou]

If you actually read the excerpts, funakoshi goes in to talking about specific techniques..and how he trained them as a part of his karate Training and taught them until modernization and commercialization..as have several of us here, you keep ignoring the examples we give you.

Again, nobody other than you has claimed there's an active ground system.

If there's no active ground system, then what is the point of your argument? No active ground system means that its not being taught or developed within the system itself.

My point was that if I get taken to the ground in a fight, my karate training has no answers for that situation. A lack of an active ground system in Karate confirms that belief.

You seem to have an issue distinctive between continously free-rolling, and applying moves from kata, which shows you don't really understand bunkai. Which is the fault of your instructor.

I understand bunkai perfectly. However my understanding of it is far more cynical and negative than your understanding of it.

You still havent answered many of flying cranes questions, or explained how a lack of youtube prescense means something doesnt exist, or chimed in to my explanation that "simply taking BJJ" isnt possible or even the best cjoice for everyone. We've given you exact examples from multiple forms, books, articles with more historical texts long before BJJ even came into the picture (nullifying the "modern invention to keep up with BJJ" argument )You keep ignoring evidence that doesn't fit your opinion. I'm done repeating myself and the other guys hear.

I answered FC's questions that pertain to this discussion. It isn't just a lack of youtube presence, there's also a lack of presence within all media. I didn't chime into your explanation about taking Bjj because I didn't see the relevance. And besides, you can always take Judo as an alternative.

Hopefully that helps.

As for your "exact" examples, you do know that there's a difference between Nagewaza and Newaza right? Again, I have no problem acknowledging throws, standing locks, and standing holds in karate, its the ground fighting aspect that I doubt.

 

[Drose427]

If there's no active ground system, then what is the point of your argument? No active ground system means that its not being taught or developed within the system itself.

my karate training has no answers for that situation. A lack of an active ground system in Karate confirms that belief.

I understand bunkai perfectly. However my understanding of it is far more cynical and negative than your understanding of it.

Hopefully that helps.

As for your "exact" examples, you do know that there's a difference between Nagewaza and Newaza right? Again, I have no problem acknowledging throws, standing locks, and standing holds in karate, its the ground fighting aspect that I doubt.

Yours didnt. The rest of us have no issue with being able to apply the locks, torques, and chokes form standing kata to doing them on our backs.

Are we free-rolling as in a competitive environment? No.

Are we practicing newaza from standing chokes and locks in our forms as bunkai? Yeah, its not difficult at all. typically, you have to change very little if anything.

Thats like saying you can only do a rear naked from a standing position.

Can I still set an Armbar from a takedown by throwing the leg over like like we do as a crescent in Samdan and teach as an application of that form? Yes, is the same movement and I have full control of the arm/wrist.

Gi choke from Odan.

Bunkai vs. Kumite.

Nobody is claiming everyones live wrestling. But saying there is zero ground game or applications is false. Especially considering your reasoing is because yours didnt.

No there isnt a lack in "all media." We've shown videos of full rolling in goju schools, linked articles discussing teachings and events from long before BJJ, and books written by Grandmasters or from interviews and talks with Grandmaster from long before BJJ's time. Saying theres a "lack of presence within all media" just shows you havent actually looked at any of the sources.

Funakoshi practiced and taught full on Okinawan Wrestling (newaza) in his okinawan days. He believed we still should and as a result of that reasoning, many of us still do. This is all in his books, its far more than "reminiscing about his boyhood days."

instead of covering your ears and going "nananananannanan", look into the actual information we've given you.