Shotokan for self defence.

[Flying Crane]

Cool, if you say so. I trained TSD in a limited capacity and learned a few forms but nothing ever touched on ground fighting but I'm not gonna say that reflects what everybody else does or knows.

And that is a perfectly reasonable position to take.

 

[Hanzou]

Your links are broken, but the moves in the form in both our videos are the nearly identical. I pointed out the differences to you earlier, now you're simply arguing semantics to avoid the facts several of us have given you about familiarity and applications of forms.

Now that the links work, im gonna note you cropped the top clip short so the move Sensei Ando is actually applying isn't even being shown..

Actually, what I posted would be the beginning of Tekki Shodan. I heard what Ando said, and was a bit curious as to where he got that opening movement from.

Here's the opening of the kata from that earlier clip I posted;


Sensei Osaka JKA Shotokan; Opening of Tekki Shodan;

Second, it isnt too hard. Clearly, many of us here from different associations and parts of the world, have instructors capable and have pointed that out.

Yet amazingly out of all of those instructors, the only one you post has extensive training in Bjj......

 

[Drose427]

Actually, what I posted would be the beginning of Tekki Shodan. I heard what Ando said, and was a bit curious as to where he got that opening movement from.

Here's the opening of the kata from that earlier clip I posted;


Sensei Osaka JKA Shotokan; Opening of Tekki Shodan;








Yet amazingly out of all of those instructors, the only one you post has extensive training in Bjj......

The beginning of that clip is exactly the movement Ando is doing from his back..

If you need it broken down:

The knees tightening and hands crossing and coming up then down, which is a common variation....exactly like ando did. You clip he simply doesnt bring his hands as high

Considering he walks you through the form both standing and from guard the same way as when he was standing, its pretty clear he got it from that form.....and yes, because the rest of us dont record everything we teach we must not teach it!

Also, he "dabbled" in BJJ according to his website, and used a move he learned from a karate kata...but he was on his back so i guess your point is its only karate if he's standing?

 

[Hanzou]

The beginning of that clip is exactly the movement Ando is doing from his back..

If you need it broken down:

The knees tightening and hands crossing and coming up then down, which is a common variation....exactly like ando did. You clip he simply doesnt bring his hands as high

Ando brought his opponents head to his chest and lifting his hips in order to break posture. That's quite a stretch to say he got that from the opening of Tekki Shodan. At what point does the karateka reach foward and brings his hands back towards his upper chest area? How the hell is bending the knees the same as lifting your hips?

Simple, it's not the same movement. However, that's fundamental Guard control in Bjj.

Considering he walks you through the form both standing and from guard the same way as when he was standing, its pretty clear he got it from that form.....and yes, because the rest of us dont record everything we teach we must not teach it!

You can view what he's doing from the clips I posted. It's pretty obvious that he's not taking much of anything from Tekki Shodan. That kata is many things, but it's definitely not a blueprint for grappling.

Also, he "dabbled" in BJJ according to his website, and used a move he learned from a karate kata...but he was on his back so i guess your point is its only karate if he's standing?

Really? According to his blog he's been doing Bjj for a few years now, and he took up Bjj because he said that he felt his ground game was lacking;

Lessons Learned from a Dojo Light Bulb - Sensei Ando Mierzwa


But again, I could be wrong about all of this. All you would need is a karateka doing ground fighting who has zero bjj experience.

 

[Drose427]

Ando brought his opponents head to his chest and raised his hips in order to break posture. That's quite a stretch to say he got that from the opening of Tekki Shodan. At what point does the karateka reach foward and brings his hands back towards his upper chest area? How the hell is bending the knees the same as raising your hips?

Simple, it's not the same movement. However, that's fundamental Guard control in Bjj.



You can view what he's doing from the clips I posted. It's pretty obvious that he's not taking much of anything from Tekki Shodan. That kata is many things, but it's definitely not a blueprint for grappling.



Really? According to his blog he's been doing Bjj for a few years now, and he took up Bjj because he said that he felt his ground game was lacking;

Lessons Learned from a Dojo Light Bulb - Sensei Ando Mierzwa

Many of us here from all over the world have given examples of ground fighting in our Karate. You're in total denial because it coincides with your poor experience with Karate

You clearly didnt do Shodan, else you'd know many schools teach the you reach up than come down. Some go above the head, others out. Some dont at all.The ones that do, do it in nearly the exact the same way he performs and teaches it in his video, he explains exactly what your attempting to call out from a standing position.....Hell, in the second clip of his video you cropped, the raising of his leg to slip past is the same movement as the Karetekas crescent kick and stomp.

Ando also never raises his hips from the ground, he pinches his knees together. Which according to his video, is how he performs the form standing.

Literally everything you've attempted to call out Ando either explains when doing the form normally, or has to do with your limited experience with the form i.e. not knowing hands coming up like a head grab is a common variant of the form.

Basically, you're claiming to have an understand of knowledge you dont know and when given many different explanations and proof from many different folks here to correct you, all you've done is given misdirection, argued semantics, and hid behind a wall of "We didnt do it at my school and since you dont record classes it doesnt exist and has nothing on BJJ" Even when you took 2 videos next to each other doing virtually the same movement, you refuse to see whats before you.

Frankly, if after so many different folks coming with different explanations, evidence, and anecdotes you still have wool over your eyes from your personal poor experience and you refuse to be anything but stubborn and ignorant, I have no intention of doing this any further.

 

[Hanzou]

Frankly, if after so many different folks coming with different explanations, evidence, and anecdotes you still have wool over your eyes from your personal poor experience and you refuse to be anything but stubborn and ignorant, I have no intention of doing this any further.

The only "evidence" you've provided is a karate guy who has done Bjj performing fundamental Bjj grappling techniques, and other posters saying that "it exists". Again, if this were truly as wide spread as you say it is, we'd be seeing it from far more sources that Ando Mierzwa. It takes pretty solid grappling training to perform what he did in that video, and you don't get that by making up grappling tactics from a kata in a completely different fighting range.

Interestingly, out of all of the contemporary and historical Japanese sources of Shotokan out there, not a single one showcases Tekki Shodan, or any Shotokan Kata utilizing grappling applications from the ground.

I wonder why that is, considering that you and others here believe that it's always been there. I can find hundreds if not thousands of books and vids on Tekki Shodan. Why? Because its truly always been there.

 

[Drose427]

The only "evidence" you've provided is a karate guy who has done Bjj performing fundamental Bjj grappling techniques, and other posters saying that "it exists". Again, if this were truly as wide spread as you say it is, we'd be seeing it from far more sources that Ando Mierzwa. It takes pretty solid grappling training to perform what he did in that video, and you don't get that by making up grappling tactics from a kata in a completely different fighting range.

Interestingly, out of all of the contemporary and historical Japanese sources of Shotokan out there, not a single one showcases Tekki Shodan, or any Shotokan Kata utilizing grappling applications from the ground.

I wonder why that is, considering that you and others here believe that it's always been there. I can find hundreds if not thousands of books and vids on Tekki Shodan. Why? Because its truly always been there.

As I believe Paul D said earlier, Tegumi has been a part of Karate since the beginning and it's always been exactly as we've explained, what we were taught, and teach.

These articles go over exactly that more:
Tegumi - Karate s Forgotten Range

There s no Grappling in Karate .Is there Moyers Karate

Karate and Okinawan Sumo

Tegumi - Old Style Karate s Two-Person Exercises

McCarthy (i believe was his name) took more from his experience with it and went into a different direction.

Paul D also mentioned a book where it was discussed.

As I said, we've given you more than anecdotes. You're simply ignoring them.

 

[Drose427]

The only "evidence" you've provided is a karate guy who has done Bjj performing fundamental Bjj grappling techniques, and other posters saying that "it exists". Again, if this were truly as wide spread as you say it is, we'd be seeing it from far more sources that Ando Mierzwa. It takes pretty solid grappling training to perform what he did in that video, and you don't get that by making up grappling tactics from a kata in a completely different fighting range.

Interestingly, out of all of the contemporary and historical Japanese sources of Shotokan out there, not a single one showcases Tekki Shodan, or any Shotokan Kata utilizing grappling applications from the ground.

I wonder why that is, considering that you and others here believe that it's always been there. I can find hundreds if not thousands of books and vids on Tekki Shodan. Why? Because its truly always been there.

Speaking of Tegumi, Look what the youtube fairy popped up:

Goshin Wales - YouTube

 

[Hanzou]

As I believe Paul D said earlier, Tegumi has been a part of Karate since the beginning and it's always been exactly as we've explained, what we were taught, and teach.

These articles go over exactly that more:
Tegumi - Karate s Forgotten Range

There s no Grappling in Karate .Is there Moyers Karate

Karate and Okinawan Sumo

Tegumi - Old Style Karate s Two-Person Exercises

McCarthy (i believe was his name) took more from his experience with it and went into a different direction.

Paul D also mentioned a book where it was discussed.

As I said, we've given you more than anecdotes. You're simply ignoring them.

Yeah, more tales from the old days. Can we get some modern examples please? Like actual modern Karate students doing this stuff. After all, your claim is that all of the good Karate teachers are teaching this stuff.

Also this from your second link;




Isn't ground fighting.

 

[Danny T]

While I cannot say I learned what is shown in the video as part of kata we did do as some of the training I did within the ground fighting I received in the shotokan training I was exposed to.
My training must not have been from a standard shotokan dojo.

 

[Drose427]

Yeah, more tales from the old days. Can we get some modern examples please? Like actual modern Karate students doing this stuff. After all, your claim is that all of the good Karate teachers are teaching this stuff.

Also this from your second link;




Isn't ground fighting.

Well considering I posted 2 other examples of ground fighting....One of which is Abernathy using bunkai from kata,a gain your nitpicking to avoid the subject of being proven wrong..

 

[Hanzou]

Well considering I posted 2 other examples of ground fighting....One of which is Abernathy using bunkai from kata,a gain your nitpicking to avoid the subject of being proven wrong..

The upa escape is now considered Bunkai from kata?

Where's the laugh emoticon when you need it?

 

[Drose427]

The upa escape is now considered Bunkai from kata?

Where's the laugh emoticon when you need it?

A grappling style that came from a Japanese martial art uses something also found in a Japanese Art that precedes it? They must have stole it from Brazil!

Both Karate and BJJ took from Tegumi, judo, and Jujutsu. Claiming that move for BJJ is like a Boxer saying other art stole the straight punch.

Ura Bunkai. An entire method of Bunkai were one move from a kata can be applied to a different situation. We've explained this and given examples.

In my system we have a form called Pinan Odan. In the beginning, its a simple punch block into a quick hidden fist and chamber on the other side. From guard, this becomes either a punch/block on a typical attacker, the hidden fist chamber becomes a gi choke. When you twist and switch sides, it becomes a choke. This can also be a choke from a standing position, but thats a little more difficult as they arent in your guard. This is a throw as well.

Applying movements from kata to groundfighting isnt some rare secret, you're just in complete denial.

The "well we'd see videos!" excuse doesnt cut it when most of us can't even find videos of our own kata.

 

[K-man]

So the secret of Bunkai is to learn a completely different MA and then apply that MA to karate katas in a less desirable and effective manner?

Then you're supposed to pretend that the "bunkai" you created (thanks to the moves you learned from a completely different MA) was in karate the entire time?

You'd seriously respect me more for doing that?

As usual you are twisting it to suit your own ends. You quoted Ando Mierzwa to demonstrate that he had trained BJJ. In fact the blog was titled "Lessons learned from a dojo light bulb". Now if you read the blog you might have recognised that you shared something in common with Ando.

YIKES! All those years of martial arts training and here I was getting my butt kicked by a burned out light bulb.

That weird bulb brought out the worst in me. Specifically, it raised three horrible feelings…

Ignorance, incompetence, and insecurity.

Heavy stuff. But that’s not the worst part. The worst part is that I refused to admit to any of those feelings. I just kept making excuses and ignoring the problem.

I was keeping myself in the dark.

Lessons Learned from a Dojo Light Bulb - Sensei Ando Mierzwa

How true is that?

But that's a side issue. The secret is not to learn another martial art to apply it to a karate kata, but learning another martial art may help you understand your own system better. Now we have already established that your Shotokan training was way less than optimal. If the instructors are training you for karate style competition I wouldn't be expecting a lot of ground work or grappling.

The kata posted is Tekki Shodan, we know it as Naihanchi Shodan. It is not a traditional Goju kata but it was obviously recognised by someone higher up in Goju as a kata worth learning. The first real karate bunkai I saw was George Dillman demonstrating Naihanchi bunkai. It was all stand up grappling and the only groundwork was takedowns. In recent years I have virtually given it away to concentrate on the Goju kata and bunkai. Now I will revisit Naihanchi with different eyes.

Hanzou, bunkai is what it means to you, not what it meant to some Chinese guy two hundred years ago. A lot of my bunkai I have worked by reverse engineering. It doesn't matter how you arrive at your understanding. The important thing is that the sequence of techniques works for you. If that includes BJJ, Judo, Aikido or Capoiera techniques, fantastic, go for it. Karate can evolve just as BJJ is evolving. There are dozens of techniques in kata that people will tell you are 'blocks'. It was pointed out to me many years ago that there can't be blocks in the kata or it becomes choreography. That made me question whether indeed there were any blocks in karate, period. Any particular movement may have multiple applications. There is nothing to say they can't be used on the ground.

I remember being told years ago that kata could be used on the ground but I never really explored that option. Now that Ando has shown the possibility of use of bunkai on the ground I'll start to explore it a bit more.

 

[Hanzou]

A grappling style that came from a Japanese martial art uses something also found in a Japanese Art that precedes it? They must have stole it from Brazil!

Keep in mind that Bjj actually predates Funakoshi founding Shotokan in Japan. Further, Bjj's lineage comes from Maeda, and as far as I know, Maeda never practiced any form of Karate. Bjj itself is a combination of judo/juijitsu, catch wrestling, and street fighting.

Did Abernathy "steal" the Upa escape form the Brazilians? "Stealing" is a harsh term. More likely, as Bjj proved the effectiveness of ground fighting, other arts began to borrow from it to fill in the gaps. Heck, Judo was neglecting newaza for decades until the UFC and Bjj showed how important newaza was to fighting.

Both Karate and BJJ took from Tegumi, judo, and Jujutsu. Claiming that move for BJJ is like a Boxer saying other art stole the straight punch.

Bjj didn't take anything from Tegumi, and frankly, I seriously doubt Karate took much from it either. All of this just smells of Karatekas taking modern grappling, and claiming that it was actually in their art the entire time.

I have a great deal of respect for Abernethy, but saying that the Upa escape is some hidden kata bunkai technique is pretty laughable behavior. I know for a fact that he trains with Bjj guys, so clearly that's where he picked it up. There's no shame in simply admitting where you really got the technique from.

Of course everyone needs to make a living right?

Applying movements from kata to groundfighting isnt some rare secret, you're just in complete denial.

The "well we'd see videos!" excuse doesnt cut it when most of us can't even find videos of our own kata.

I wonder why that is....

 

[Drose427]

Keep in mind that Bjj actually predates Funakoshi founding Shotokan in Japan. Further, Bjj's lineage comes from Maeda, and as far as I know, Maeda never practiced any form of Karate. Bjj itself is a combination of judo/juijitsu, catch wrestling, and street fighting.

Did Abernathy "steal" the Upa escape form the Brazilians? "Stealing" is a harsh term. More likely, as Bjj proved the effectiveness of ground fighting, other arts began to borrow from it to fill in the gaps. Heck, Judo was neglecting newaza for decades until the UFC and Bjj showed how important newaza was to fighting.

.

Yes, BJJ did. But the grappling in Shotokan, comes from Judo/Jujustu/and Tegumi. If you read the articles I posted, you'd see where funakoshi was talking about how Tegumi played a role in his Okinawan Karate training years before founding Shotokan. So no, it isnt a modern invention. BJJ shares a lineage with the systems that Karate takes its grappling from. Seeing similar concepts isnt surprising.

I wonder why that is....

Because we dont feel the need to record every second of our training? You dont see 100 videos online of a doctor learning an appendectomy, does that mean Doctors dont learn it?

Better yet, you don't see videos of a Pathologist performing physicals. So I can assume they cant right?

 

[K-man]

Bjj didn't take anything from Tegumi, and frankly, I seriously doubt Karate took much from it either. All of this just smells of Karatekas taking modern grappling, and claiming that it was actually in their art the entire time.

Seriously? You are now questioning the well documented history of karate?

I have a great deal of respect for Abernethy, but saying that the Upa escape is some hidden kata bunkai technique is pretty laughable behavior. I know for a fact that he trains with Bjj guys, so clearly that's where he picked it up. There's no shame in simply admitting where you really got the technique from.

Of course everyone needs to make a living right?

Mmm! Interesting this newfound respect for Iain Abernethy (even with the snide comment to finish). Eighteen months ago when I posted some of his video to demonstrate the application of kata you dismissed his work as not realistic.

I wonder why that is....

Simply because not everything is on YouTube.

 

[Flying Crane]

Hanzou: serious question, what do you believe is contained in kata? Do you understand the difference between a technique and a principle? Do you see kata as an exercise in the practice of technique, or the practice of principles, or both, or neither, or something else?

Second serious question: do you recognize that many similar or identical techniques are found in common with many different systems of martial art?

By way of example, in my own time in training I've noticed capoeira has techniques in common with judo and with Kenpo. White crane has techniques in common with Kenpo and wing Chun and capoeira. Kenpo has techniques in common with Dan zan Ryu and judo.

My point being, curriculum does not exist in a vacuum. No curriculum of any system is truly unique to itself. Is that a point you would agree with?

 

[Mephisto]

Hanzou: serious question, what do you believe is contained in kata? Do you understand the difference between a technique and a principle? Do you see kata as an exercise in the practice of technique, or the practice of principles, or both, or neither, or something else?

Second serious question: do you recognize that many similar or identical techniques are found in common with many different systems of martial art?

By way of example, in my own time in training I've noticed capoeira has techniques in common with judo and with Kenpo. White crane has techniques in common with Kenpo and wing Chun and capoeira. Kenpo has techniques in common with Dan zan Ryu and judo.

My point being, curriculum does not exist in a vacuum. No curriculum of any system is truly unique to itself. Is that a point you would agree with?

I'd agree that many arts share movements, one art may use a movement for a completely different purpose than another art. For example in my Filipino system we have several stick disarms, We only use those movements as stick disarms. But I've trained in other arts and other stick arts and I've seen how some will use the same stick disarm motion for multiple techniques. Now when I teach the stick disarms I'll show the empty hand version. A vine disarm becomes a shoulder lock, a north south disarm becomes an elbow lock. I could tell my students that the empty hand disarm applications have always been there and it's a stretch but if the motions have been their then perhaps the empty hand moves have been there in a sense. But the truth is it took outside knowledge for me to learn this new application for disarms in my system and without outside knowledge I'd never have a thought of it. I could show this to my peers and some might even agree with my new knowledge and some might even act as though they've known it all along. Some might imply that the empty hand applications for disarms have always been in my system and just under that I didn't learn it due to inferior training. But the truth is I'm just recycling a movement a repurposing it based on my knowledge from another system. I don't think its wrong to do this but I think it's important to be honest about how I arrived at the technique. I suppose shotokan is different than my example because apparently everyone in shotokan grapples with the exception of sport focused schools.

 

[drop bear]

Hanzou: serious question, what do you believe is contained in kata? Do you understand the difference between a technique and a principle? Do you see kata as an exercise in the practice of technique, or the practice of principles, or both, or neither, or something else?

Second serious question: do you recognize that many similar or identical techniques are found in common with many different systems of martial art?

By way of example, in my own time in training I've noticed capoeira has techniques in common with judo and with Kenpo. White crane has techniques in common with Kenpo and wing Chun and capoeira. Kenpo has techniques in common with Dan zan Ryu and judo.

My point being, curriculum does not exist in a vacuum. No curriculum of any system is truly unique to itself. Is that a point you would agree with?

I think the argument is that it becomes increasingly hard to believe that the guy who invented kata had somehow managed to cover every single issue into one perfect response. Nobody else has ever managed this with anything.

That kata is being treated as dogma. And that people are rationalising to try to grind real life into a shape that they can agree with.

And for me anyway. Training with a dogmatic belief in kata wont work in the long term because say for example with ground work. There will be elements that are not covered by kata or outright defy kata that will be effective and essential to getting the basic fundamentals of your technique right.

So you don't do the hip escape because it looks similar to the nasi goreng kata. You do it because it is the best method you can employ to get that fat sweaty bugger off you.

Same as if you went and did judo. But refused to change from karate. You screw yourself up.