Shotokan for self defence.

[Zero]

Oh how I do love semantics....



Well I do know, because I've choked out plenty of people, but to date haven't come close to killing anyone. In a SD situation, choking someone out is a quick and relatively painless method of ending a confrontation.

Funny but I don't see anything semantic there and see a gulf of difference between time and effort...but I admit my cross to bear is that I am a lawyer, gulp, and have a legally trained mind so it is very hard for me to avoid semantics as you say. I have managed to disengage that in my personal life as it used to cause no end of tortuous hardships with my wife and arguments at dinner parties! : ) maybe I should try to do the same here. Uuh, not that I see you as anything like my "Online MT Wife" Hanzou!! haha!

 

[Zero]

Oh how I do love semantics....



Well I do know, because I've choked out plenty of people, but to date haven't come close to killing anyone. In a SD situation, choking someone out is a quick and relatively painless method of ending a confrontation.

So how much longer do you have to apply the pressure for it to go from a KO to RIP? A minute, or is it much less?

 

[Drose427]

I'd put Krav's punching on par with Karate and other TMA's punching. So I would say that its definitely worth mentioning. I can learn to punch at a Krav school.

In comparison, Ian Abernathy states plainly that if you want to learn grappling, learn a grappling style.

As have we. The assertion never was that Karates grappling was comparable to a jiujitieros or judokas, only that it exists in a mild basic form. Anyone with training will tell you basics and fundamentals are more than enough against someone with no training, which your average person wont have so its definitely worth mentioning. The whole debated started to correct the misconception that there is no ground game or grappling, which isn't quite true. Nobody has held the opinion or made the assertion that its as refined as a grappling style

 

[Danny T]

We run the get up sweep submit Idea.

It would be helpful if we could see some video examples of this Karate grappling in action, and see how it compares to modern grappling forms.

Interestingly, Abernathy has opined that what little Karate grappling there is, it's crude in comparison to what's found in the grappling arts. So I don't see why it's worth discussing when it comes to self defense.

The point is that grappling is in karate. Have not said it is the same or to the level as BJJ.
BJJ and other systems where grappling in the predominate aspect should be at a higher level.
From what I have been exposed to the grappling in karate was to utilized vs a non trained or a lowly train attacker (and yes that karate grappling is not to the same level within a highly trained BJJ person). Same could be stated of BJJ striking vs a boxer utilizing punching only.

 

[Hanzou]

So how much longer do you have to apply the pressure for it to go from a KO to RIP? A minute, or is it much less?

I've heard estimates of everything from 30 seconds to a few minutes depending on the person being choked. The point is, the person getting choked should begin to lose consciousness a lot sooner than that.

 

[Dirty Dog]

So how much longer do you have to apply the pressure for it to go from a KO to RIP? A minute, or is it much less?

That is not really predictable. A blood choke will result in death sooner than an air choke, but it'll still probably take a few minutes.

 

[Hanzou]

As have we. The assertion never was that Karates grappling was comparable to a jiujitieros or judokas, only that it exists in a mild basic form. Anyone with training will tell you basics and fundamentals are more than enough against someone with no training, which your average person wont have so its definitely worth mentioning. The whole debated started to correct the misconception that there is no ground game or grappling, which isn't quite true. Nobody has held the opinion or made the assertion that its as refined as a grappling style

While Krav hand techs may not be comparable to boxing, they're comparable to the hand techs of other MAs. According to Abernathy, Karate grappling is below every form of grappling out there. So you're not making an accurate comparison here.

We have yet to see any Karate ground game whatsoever. All we're getting are stories of Okinawans playing grappling games with each other. Where's some examples of traditional karate ground fighting? Surely if it's being taught in Okinawan Karate we should see evidence of it somewhere.

 

[Mephisto]

I've heard estimates of everything from 30 seconds to a few minutes depending on the person being choked. The point is, the person getting choked should begin to lose consciousness a lot sooner than that.

I've heard debate as to weather a choke causes incousciousness due to the manual restriction of oxygen and blood flow or if it's a response due to the drop in blood pressure from the restriction. Either way I think causing death or severe damage is a function of how long you deprive the brain of oxygen due to the restriction of blood flow. It probably varies from person to person but Id guess you'd have to hold it for couple of minutes but you also have factors like the health and build of the person you're choking and the position they're in.

On a side note a bjj buddy once suggested that if we were camping and he broke an arm he'd just have me choke him out and reset the bone. Not sure how smart that idea is though.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

So how much longer do you have to apply the pressure for it to go from a KO to RIP? A minute, or is it much less?

For a healthy individual, it will typically take several minutes (I've read 3-5 minutes) for brain damage to occur from a properly applied blood choke.

However - individuals with an unusually hypersensitive carotid sinus could be triggered into cardiac irregularity. Also, individuals in poor vascular health might suffer damage much more quickly or have other complications. I would imagine there might also be some kinds of pre-existing conditions which could be set off by the choke.

Air chokes can inflict permanent damage much more quickly, by crushing the trachea. I don't recommend those for self-defense purposes.

 

[Mephisto]

While Krav hand techs may not be comparable to boxing, they're comparable to the hand techs of other MAs. According to Abernathy, Karate grappling is below every form of grappling out there. So you're not making an accurate comparison here.

We have yet to see any Karate ground game whatsoever. All we're getting are stories of Okinawans playing grappling games with each other. Where's some examples of traditional karate ground fighting? Surely if it's being taught in Okinawan Karate we should see evidence of it somewhere.

I'd agree, if it's (grappling) inherent to certain flavors of karate and is part of the system we should be able to find some video of it somewhere if it's as common as seems to be claimed here. I haven't seen much karate stand up grappling let alone ground work. Even rudimentary grappling is good if you train it with the honesty and realization that its not you're forte but more of an answer to a possibility.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I've heard debate as to weather a choke causes incousciousness due to the manual restriction of oxygen and blood flow or if it's a response due to the drop in blood pressure from the restriction. Either way I think causing death or severe damage is a function of how long you deprive the brain of oxygen due to the restriction of blood flow. It probably varies from person to person but Id guess you'd have to hold it for couple of minutes but you also have factors like the health and build of the person you're choking and the position they're in.

On a side note a bjj buddy once suggested that if we were camping and he broke an arm he'd just have me choke him out and reset the bone. Not sure how smart that idea is though.

Blood chokes require compression of the artery, which stops (or significantly decreases) the flow of blood to the brain. Since the veins are MUCH easier to compress, as well as being closer to the surface, they will also be compressed.
If both are completely compressed, there will be no flow into or out of the brain, and the oxygen in the (non-moving) blood will be quickly depleted, leading to unconsciousness. Pressure within the vessels won't change significantly.
If the artery is partially compressed, there will be some blood flow in, but none out. Depleting the available oxygen will take slightly longer (depending on the degree of arterial occlusion). The pressure in the vessels will rise somewhat.

 

[Drose427]

I'd agree, if it's (grappling) inherent to certain flavors of karate and is part of the system we should be able to find some video of it somewhere if it's as common as seems to be claimed here. I haven't seen much karate stand up grappling let alone ground work. Even rudimentary grappling is good if you train it with the honesty and realization that its not you're forte but more of an answer to a possibility.

While Krav hand techs may not be comparable to boxing, they're comparable to the hand techs of other MAs. According to Abernathy, Karate grappling is below every form of grappling out there. So you're not making an accurate comparison here.

We have yet to see any Karate ground game whatsoever. All we're getting are stories of Okinawans playing grappling games with each other. Where's some examples of traditional karate ground fighting? Surely if it's being taught in Okinawan Karate we should see evidence of it somewhere.

The issue with this is TMAs arent like Boxing or MMA, where even local events tend to be televised on local access channels. You can't even find videos of every form or SD drill in any TMA, forget just finding videos of everything Karate has to offer. If you go to youtube and google you're going to find Flashy Demos and Sparring, not much more. Thats what brings in students, or what parents wanna keep record of their child doing, so thats whats getting recorded.

Paul D and K-man both gave examples of uses and the type of grappling taught. Everyones been very clear that it isnt free rolling in the sense of BJJ or Judo, if you're still looking for that you havent been paying attention.

youtube popped up this example, if i had more time Id give more:

I believe Paul D gave another example earlier.

 

[Mephisto]

Blood chokes require compression of the artery, which stops (or significantly decreases) the flow of blood to the brain. Since the veins are MUCH easier to compress, as well as being closer to the surface, they will also be compressed.
If both are completely compressed, there will be no flow into or out of the brain, and the oxygen in the (non-moving) blood will be quickly depleted, leading to unconsciousness. Pressure within the vessels won't change significantly.
If the artery is partially compressed, there will be some blood flow in, but none out. Depleting the available oxygen will take slightly longer (depending on the degree of arterial occlusion). The pressure in the vessels will rise somewhat.

I don't know if that's really the case. I've discussed the topic at length with individuals who have done some homework and their are at least three plausible theories, and arguably a couple more contenders:
"Carotid chokes work because of

A. No blood gets to the brain thereby cutting of oxygen to the brain and causing a KO.
B. The vagas nerve is stimulated, dropping BP and oxygen to the brain, thereby causing a KO
C. The flow of blood out of the brain is restricted causing a pressure difference that causes a KO."
One of the strongest arguments is the vasocagal nervous response which is a nervous system reaction due to altered blood pressure. That's why unconsciousness is so quick from a choke. But you're theory is plausible too, my point is like many things, it's debatable.

 

[Mephisto]

The issue with this is TMAs arent like Boxing or MMA, where even local events tend to be televised on local access channels. You can't even find videos of every form or SD drill in any TMA, forget just finding videos of everything Karate has to offer. If you go to youtube and google you're going to find Flashy Demos and Sparring, not much more. Thats what brings in students, or what parents wanna keep record of their child doing, so thats whats getting recorded.

Paul D and K-man both gave examples of uses and the type of grappling taught. Everyones been very clear that it isnt free rolling in the sense of BJJ or Judo, if you're still looking for that you havent been paying attention.

youtube popped up this example, if i had more time Id give more:

I believe Paul D gave another example earlier.

Well it looks like you were able to find some video, so maybe we weren't to far off in asking for video. I like the video it definitely shows some karate ground application, I'm just curious if this is the only guy running the kata this way. If no one else or the majority of people within his system don't acknowledge that this is a ground kata, than it doesn't matter what it's original purpose was if it has been lost.

 

[Drose427]

Well it looks like you were able to find some video, so maybe we weren't to far off in asking for video. I like the video it definitely shows some karate ground application, I'm just curious if this is the only guy running the kata this way. If no one else or the majority of people within his system don't acknowledge that this is a ground kata, than it doesn't matter what it's original purpose was if it has been lost.

Point is, video on the web is a poor example. The most marketable, or popular, will always have more people uploading their videos. People upload what viewers want to see the majority of the time.

Clearly he isnt the only one, when myself, K-man, and Paul D have mentioned specific training, others have agreed with applications here. The statistical odds of all 3 of us attending "special badass, not typical" schools as MMA guys like to put it considering the lineage and geographical differences are pretty crazy. Yet, all of go to schools were there a ground fighting applications in our various forms. The implication that they arent there at all is just false.

 

[Tez3]

Clearly he isnt the only one, when myself, K-man, and Paul D have mentioned specific training, others have agreed with applications here. The statistical odds of all 3 of us attending "special badass, not typical" schools as MMA guys like to put it considering the lineage and geographical differences are pretty crazy

I train like this as well, I also know several places that train like this, it's not unusual at all as you've said.
I just can't be bothered arguing all the same points over and over when being told endlessly that we don't train 'ground fighting' in karate.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I don't know if that's really the case. I've discussed the topic at length with individuals who have done some homework and their are at least three plausible theories, and arguably a couple more contenders:

I did a fair bit of homework myself, enroute to earning a Masters in physiology...

"Carotid chokes work because of

A. No blood gets to the brain thereby cutting of oxygen to the brain and causing a KO.

That is correct.

B. The vagas nerve is stimulated, dropping BP and oxygen to the brain, thereby causing a KO

That is done with a strike, not a choke.

C. The flow of blood out of the brain is restricted causing a pressure difference that causes a KO."

Compressing the veins takes very little pressure. But at that level of pressure, your opponent would be able to move freely. If you're applying enough pressure to prevent your opponent from moving, you'll be compressing the artery.

One of the strongest arguments is the vasocagal nervous response which is a nervous system reaction due to altered blood pressure. That's why unconsciousness is so quick from a choke. But you're theory is plausible too, my point is like many things, it's debatable.

This is incorrect. The vasovagal response causes a decrease in blood pressure (and heart rate). Not the other way around.

 

[Hanzou]

The issue with this is TMAs arent like Boxing or MMA, where even local events tend to be televised on local access channels. You can't even find videos of every form or SD drill in any TMA, forget just finding videos of everything Karate has to offer. If you go to youtube and google you're going to find Flashy Demos and Sparring, not much more. Thats what brings in students, or what parents wanna keep record of their child doing, so thats whats getting recorded.

Paul D and K-man both gave examples of uses and the type of grappling taught. Everyones been very clear that it isnt free rolling in the sense of BJJ or Judo, if you're still looking for that you havent been paying attention.

youtube popped up this example, if i had more time Id give more:

I believe Paul D gave another example earlier.

What nonsense. How can pull any of that from Tekki Shodan?

There's zero resemblance between the two.

It's almost as if someone learned a little grappling and assigned it to a random kata.

This is simply yet another example of people trying to make Karate applicable for all things instead of simply accepting that it has holes.

 

[Drose427]

What nonsense. How can pull any of that from Tekki Shodan?

There's zero resemblance between the two.

It's almost as if someone learned a little grappling and assigned it to a random kata.

The first few moves are nearly identical in both videos...differences being yours enunciates a crescent kick and long arm extension. The legs coming together to trap and push, the cross block and"post party" bit from my video, are the same movements from yours just from the ground.

Saying theres "zero resemblance" is like saying theres zero resemblance from a standing rear naked, and one done from your back.

 

[Hanzou]

The first few moves are nearly identical in both videos...differences being yours enunciates a crescent kick and long arm extension. The legs coming together to trap and push, the cross block and"post party" bit from my video, are the same movements from yours just from the ground.

Saying theres "zero resemblance" is like saying theres zero resemblance from a standing rear naked, and one done from your back.

Would the fact that Sensei Ando also practices Bjj have anything to do with him suddenly "discovering" Karate ground fighting?