Shotokan for self defence.

[Hanzou]

We're certainly agreed that the guard has its place in the self-defense toolbox. On the other hand, almost none of us really spend a lot of time training every potentially useful tool. Everyone has different priorities. I'm sure the FMA folks could ask why we spend so much time focusing on unarmed techniques and neglect tools like a knife, which is much more of a force multiplier.

Probably because gutting someone like a fish is a quick way to wind up in the slammer.

However, I do agree with the rest of your post, even if I haven't personally experienced it myself.

 

[drop bear]

Drop bear, no offense to those guys, but I am not going to even start that Vid, from the stances of at least 4 of the 5 chaps in shot, it looks like a lame duck from the get-go!! That may be completely unfair but that's my take from the school of hard knocks.

and fair enough too. But it is developed through his success in SD.

 

[drop bear]

So are you saying that there are no self-defense situations where eliminating a threat either via a choke or break would be preferable/viable options to attempting to escape?

We run the get up sweep submit Idea.

 

[drop bear]

I too punched a guy in self defense with great success in a few occasions, didn't even need to follow up with a groin kick, eye gouge, or knee implosion.

Not every goju instructor is an Leo. I do not believe that situational awareness are part of the traditional goju curriculum. Perhaps it's like gjj where self defense is a prominent part of many school's curriculum but I doubt it traces back to Japan or Okinawa.

yeah one does not necessarily link to the other. Like my running metaphor.

And need to be assessed separately.

 

[drop bear]

Eh, depends on how stringent you're going to be about the meaning of "proven." There's no practical or ethical way to do rigorous scientific studies on the matter. However, once we've agreed on which definition of self-defense we are discussing, we can assemble reasonable evidence for or against certain approaches to certain aspects of that goal.

there seems to be a lot of misinformation on the subject. And we don't tend to rigorously examine it.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

We run the get up sweep submit Idea.

I think MMA gyms tend to be better about that than pure BJJ clubs.

 

[K-man]

So mostly stuff like protecting yourself from getting kicked in the head and getting back to your feet? Do you include escapes from pins? If so, do you think those go back to the founding of Goju Ryu or are they more recent additions?

Certainly protecting the head is a priority. An example would be a single leg takedown from the ground where I see MMA guys training to grab the ankle with both hands. I teach it with one hand grabbing the ankle so you still have one arm up to protect the head. On the ground against multiple attackers again I stress keeping the head protected and to keep moving.

Escaping from pins and locks is an interesting point. Generally it is not taught in Aikido until about 3rd dan. I teach it from the early stages as knowing how to escape means you learn better how to apply the hold.

As to whether these elements were in the original Goju ... I believe almost certainly. Although Higaonna didn't name Goju he started Naha-te, its forebear. This was the combination of the Kung fu that Kanryo Higaonna became a master of in China and the local wrestling type fighting that had developed in Okinawa, Tegumi. Chojun Miyagi was his student and obviously learned those things from Higaonna. Miyagi also studied Judo in his early years, something he obviously encouraged his students to study also. Jinan Shinzato, Miyagi's top pre-war student, and Eiichi Miyazato, Miyagi's successor, were both highly trained Judoka. Miyazato's student Masaji Taira, ex Jundokan and now teaching around the world, is also a highly trained Judoka and is teaching this hands on style of karate.

You might say these guys trained judo to fill in the gaps but I would suggest it was more to better understand what was already there. I started Aikido for that same reason.

Then you look at the Bubishi. It has many illustrations of grappling. Even more telling is the section on vital points and pressure points. Obviously some are for striking but others are activated by pressing or rubbing, something you need to be actively engaged to perform.

Of course that raises the question, "if it was there originally, why don't you see it now?" I think that is because of the mass training style that was adopted to teach karate to the masses. Hundreds of students lined up and moving in unison. Easy to teach kicks and strikes but difficult to teach complex grappling techniques. That is characteristic of Japanese Karate but not so much in the Okinawan style.

 

[ShotoNoob]

Hello, I'm new here. I was skimming through the conversation. Primarily the first and current pages.

I have no experience with Shotokan at all. But my instructor told me a story about a Shotokan guy who visited the school he was studying at at the time. (This was probably 30 or more years ago.) He said the guy participated in a friendly sparring match with the other students and absolutely dominated everyone.

He said the guy was just so fast that he was all over you before you had time to process it. He said that even though the guy was using the same techniques over and over (front kick, straight and reverse punch) he was so fast at getting off the line and so precise with his attacks, that it didn't matter.

So my point I guess, is judging from this story (and the credibility of my instructor) that yeah, Shotokan definitely has self defense applications.

I feel like the primary weapon that any martial art employs is intent. If you train Shotokan or any other martial with the intention of getting out of the situation as quickly as possible through what ever means necessary, it will probably serve you well in a self defense scenario. But its unfair to say that any martial art will be effective in 100% of the situations. Maybe the guys has a knife, or gun. Or a friend with a gun, or a car and he's going to run you over. You never know.
NIce Post. I've intensity level on which one has trained. Your post demonstrates that someone training Shotokan karate at a higher level of intensity could exhibit this kind of self defense effectiveness. There's many a you tube vid demonstrating Shotokan kumite competitors on this level.

I've commented before on the levels of intensity with which one trains traditional karate. Higher intensity training should work towards producing the results in your story.... There's many a YT vid of Shotokan kumite competitors demonstrating what you are describing....
|
You qualification of "intent" figures exactly into this equation and dovetails with the "State of Mind" thread the concepts advocated there.
|
Again, nice post.....

 

[Hanzou]

Certainly protecting the head is a priority. An example would be a single leg takedown from the ground where I see MMA guys training to grab the ankle with both hands. I teach it with one hand grabbing the ankle so you still have one arm up to protect the head. On the ground against multiple attackers again I stress keeping the head protected and to keep moving.

Escaping from pins and locks is an interesting point. Generally it is not taught in Aikido until about 3rd dan. I teach it from the early stages as knowing how to escape means you learn better how to apply the hold.

As to whether these elements were in the original Goju ... I believe almost certainly. Although Higaonna didn't name Goju he started Naha-te, its forebear. This was the combination of the Kung fu that Kanryo Higaonna became a master of in China and the local wrestling type fighting that had developed in Okinawa, Tegumi. Chojun Miyagi was his student and obviously learned those things from Higaonna. Miyagi also studied Judo in his early years, something he obviously encouraged his students to study also. Jinan Shinzato, Miyagi's top pre-war student, and Eiichi Miyazato, Miyagi's successor, were both highly trained Judoka. Miyazato's student Masaji Taira, ex Jundokan and now teaching around the world, is also a highly trained Judoka and is teaching this hands on style of karate.

You might say these guys trained judo to fill in the gaps but I would suggest it was more to better understand what was already there. I started Aikido for that same reason.

Then you look at the Bubishi. It has many illustrations of grappling. Even more telling is the section on vital points and pressure points. Obviously some are for striking but others are activated by pressing or rubbing, something you need to be actively engaged to perform.

Of course that raises the question, "if it was there originally, why don't you see it now?" I think that is because of the mass training style that was adopted to teach karate to the masses. Hundreds of students lined up and moving in unison. Easy to teach kicks and strikes but difficult to teach complex grappling techniques. That is characteristic of Japanese Karate but not so much in the Okinawan style.

It would be helpful if we could see some video examples of this Karate grappling in action, and see how it compares to modern grappling forms.

Interestingly, Abernathy has opined that what little Karate grappling there is, it's crude in comparison to what's found in the grappling arts. So I don't see why it's worth discussing when it comes to self defense.

 

[drop bear]

I think MMA gyms tend to be better about that than pure BJJ clubs.

There are not many submissions from inside guard but plenty of hammer fists.

 

[RTKDCMB]

The tkd school in question demoed typical tkd fair, plenty of flash, some compliant possibly self defense, and a brief moment of typical tkd soarring complete with typical tkd high kicks (which are generally frowned upon from a sd pov).

I should point out that the demonstration on the website is not typical of our usual style of demonstration. This one was for the Chinese festival in Northbridge. It was a bit more flashy than usual, there were only black belts, they had a demo team (usually those taking part in demonstrations are just the students and instructors/black belts that were available at the time). This one was practiced extensively beforehand (usually we just meet an hour before the demonstration, sort out what we are going to do and have a quick practice session). There are typically only one or two tile breaks and the most spectacular breaking technique is just a flying side kick, jumping front kick or jump spinning heel kick. We usually try to keep it simple so that potential students will not think that they would not be able to do it.

 

[Tames D]

So without any karate experience you are now an expert on karate stances and kata. Well, the only time we use a long stance is in a takedown. Because the kata is all grappling there are few if any kicks and there are no exaggerated punches. Best stick to your MMA. I'm out of here. This was meant to be a conversation with those who practise karate.

You really should stop saying this.

 

[Drose427]

It would be helpful if we could see some video examples of this Karate grappling in action, and see how it compares to modern grappling forms.

Interestingly, Abernathy has opined that what little Karate grappling there is, it's crude in comparison to what's found in the grappling arts. So I don't see why it's worth discussing when it comes to self defense.

Krav Maga's punching is less refined than a normal boxing class, is it not worth mentioning for SD?

 

[Zero]

You really should stop saying this.

 

[Zero]

You really should stop saying this.

What? K-Man's left the building again? He'll be back...

 

[Zero]

What's your definition of "a little more time"? There's no way you kill someone with a choke in a matter of seconds. Pass out? Definitely.

You said "effort". There is a world of difference between "more effort" and "more time".

But in answer to your question, I do not know, I would need someone on here with a medical background or actual experience in this to tell us, if you are asking how long a choke needs to be on for death to be the more than likely result.

Of course on a neck crank such as tate hishige or even more so gyaku hishige, that's a different matter, that can be literally done in seconds but as you have said, this does require exertion, particularly if you are up against someone your own size/weight or larger. It's interesting as with these moves you can apply them either as strangulations with the blade/edge of forearm or as they are referred to as dislocations, ie being death moves/breaks, when you instead apply torque or a backwards bending crank.

 

[Zero]

I'd like to think I'm more down to earth than some of the FMA guys I'm friends with and talk to. Knife defense is highly speculative, and anyone with a knife is a "master" if you're unarmed. Unlike bjj, striking or unarmed arts where generally the higher ranks greatly outclass the lower ranks, I think the gap is much smaller when dealing with a high risk situation like knife vs unarmed. Knife training is beneficial but unless you're an unsavory character chances are most knife guys in the States just don't have the experience to claim to be an expert. Most people have been in a fight, even if it was as a youth but much fewer have faced a blade. Statistically I think it's not as important of a skill as many FMA guys would have you believe, but it doesn't hurt. The same goes for the guys that train with the "stick represents a blade" mentality. At least in the states I think stick as an impact weapon has much more applicability. How many people do you guys know that have faced a ~2 ft blade? What about another impact weapon improvised or not? You might be lucky enough to find an improvised stick in an attack and might be unlucky enough to face one. But your chances of facing a ~2 ft blade are very slim.

Valid points but do the statistics in the States of finding yourself facing a mugger or assailant holding a gun therefore make the applicability of training in bjj or striking arts for self defence much less than we MAs would hope? What is the likelihood of being faced with a gun, rather than an unarmed mugger or assailant, in the States? Is it not as much as media sometimes portrays?

 

[Zero]

and fair enough too. But it is developed through his success in SD.

haha! Cripes, I just found a bit of down time and actually watched that "highlight clip", thanks for the numerous laughs!!

 

[Hanzou]

Krav Maga's punching is less refined than a normal boxing class, is it not worth mentioning for SD?

I'd put Krav's punching on par with Karate and other TMA's punching. So I would say that its definitely worth mentioning. I can learn to punch at a Krav school.

In comparison, Ian Abernathy states plainly that if you want to learn grappling, learn a grappling style.

 

[Hanzou]

You said "effort". There is a world of difference between "more effort" and "more time".

Oh how I do love semantics....

But in answer to your question, I do not know, I would need someone on here with a medical background or actual experience in this to tell us, if you are asking how long a choke needs to be on for death to be the more than likely result.

Well I do know, because I've choked out plenty of people, but to date haven't come close to killing anyone. In a SD situation, choking someone out is a quick and relatively painless method of ending a confrontation.