Shotokan for self defence.

[Hanzou]

Not quite.

In a challenge match, I'm committed to engaging with my opponent. If I can't get the top position, then settling for guard and working for a sweep or submission is a viable option. (Especially if it's a grappling-only match as many of the matches in the formative years of BJJ were.)

In a self-defense situation, I would prefer to disengage from my attacker(s). Having someone in my guard is significantly less bad than being mounted, but it's still potentially a very bad situation. Disengaging and getting to my feet should be a higher priority than either sweeping or submitting in most (not all) cases. Fortunately, the guard does offer some good routes to safely disengage and get up if you are tangled with an opponent on the ground.

So are you saying that there are no self-defense situations where eliminating a threat either via a choke or break would be preferable/viable options to attempting to escape?

 

[Hanzou]

Really? the word 'any' is what you are basing 'wild claims' on.

Actually no, it would be the entire line. Saying that your training would allow you to "rapidly immobilize any attacker" is a pretty wild claim.

Just saying....

 

[Tony Dismukes]

So are you saying that there are no self-defense situations where eliminating a threat either via a choke or break would be preferable/viable options to attempting to escape?

Nope. You'll notice I said "most (not all)".

Some situations where going for the choke or break first might be preferable:

You are 100% certain there are no 3rd parties nearby or likely to show up to stomp your head in.
Your opponent is doing a good enough job holding you down that you can choke him out faster than you can disengage.
Your opponent gives you an immediate opening so that you can take an extra second to snap his arm and still manage to disengage quickly before any additional attackers arrive.
The tactical situation is such that getting to your feet will not give you a route to escape until your attacker is incapacitated - and you lack the ability to handle him standing.

As I said, use of the guard has self-defense validity as long as you understand the tactical needs of the situation and train to respond appropriately to those needs. If we don't understand the difference between working to win a fight and working to survive a self-defense situation, then we can run into trouble,

 

[RTKDCMB]

Actually no, it would be the entire line. Saying that your training would allow you to "rapidly immobilize any attacker" is a pretty wild claim.

So if it said that my training would allow me to "rapidly immobilize an attacker" that would still be a wild claim in your opinion? And that is just your opinion, which is not coming from any position of knowledge.

 

[Mephisto]

So if it said that my training would allow me to "rapidly immobilize an attacker" that would still be a wild claim in your opinion? And that is just your opinion, which is not coming from any position of knowledge.

It's a wild claim, but it is typical of school advertisements. I've seen many schools claim to offer the best instruction, another wild claim. You also mentioned that mma fighters claim to be the best in the world. I wouldn't mind seeing some quotes specifically, but I'm sure it's been said. The difference is the fighter is an individual preparing physchologically for a match, the school is selling a product. Advertising can often be filled with half truths but is be curious to the truth to any of the statement in question.

I wouldn't mind seeing a video from honzou's school though. The tkd school in question demoed typical tkd fair, plenty of flash, some compliant possibly self defense, and a brief moment of typical tkd soarring complete with typical tkd high kicks (which are generally frowned upon from a sd pov).

 

[Zero]

I have no doubt that my training in Bjj has taught me to avoid confrontations, as much as knowing how to handle myself if things go south.

As for litigation and punitive action, being able to disable someone without actually hurting them has its merits.

Then good for you my friend and long may you continue to avoid any such situations. Personally, I have very little in my repertoire that enables me to disable an assailant without "hurting" them, be it my jujitsu joint locks, which sure as hell hurt when put on to the degree required to restrain or disable a resisting and aggressive assailant or my judo throws and submissions...I don't think you can say choking someone until they pass out is not hurting them. I certainly do not want to be in a position where I am having to maintain a lock or hold (either standing or on the ground - and particularly NOT on the ground) until the coppers turn up! I have actually kept a shop lifter immobilised with a shoulder lock until the shopping mall security guards turned up but I would not have done that on the street at night where his potential mates where also on the scene...

 

[RTKDCMB]

I wouldn't mind seeing a video from honzou's school though. The tkd school in question demoed typical tkd fair, plenty of flash, some compliant possibly self defense, and a brief moment of typical tkd soarring complete with typical tkd high kicks (which are generally frowned upon from a sd pov).

We typically frown upon them for self defense too.We don't have a lot of flash, you will not find very many tornado kicks or any 720 kicks or backflips.

 

[Zero]

It's a wild claim, but it is typical of school advertisements. I've seen many schools claim to offer the best instruction, another wild claim. You also mentioned that mma fighters claim to be the best in the world. I wouldn't mind seeing some quotes specifically, but I'm sure it's been said. The difference is the fighter is an individual preparing physchologically for a match, the school is selling a product. Advertising can often be filled with half truths but is be curious to the truth to any of the statement in question.

Sorry Mephisto the Magnificent but sometimes, actually, oftentimes these days, it is the prize fighter that is also selling a product (with more dollars on the line than the school); the fighter and the forum they represent, UFC for example, IS the product and it is very much in the world of advertising, marketing and sales in which such claims and pre-fight, after fight promo material is made...the $ is king, all hail the $!

 

[Zero]

We typically frown upon them for self defense too.We don't have a lot of flash, you will not find very many tornado kicks or any 720 kicks or backflips.

But nothing looks better for sheer coolness value and aesthetics than escaping doing backflip/flick flaks at speed down the alleyway, you get that up on YouTube and you da man, Da Man!!!

 

[Mephisto]

Sorry Mephisto the Magnificent but sometimes, actually, oftentimes these days, it is the prize fighter that is also selling a product (with more dollars on the line than the school); the fighter and the forum they represent, UFC for example, IS the product and it is very much in the world of advertising, marketing and sales in which such claims and pre-fight, after fight promo material is made...the $ is king, all hail the $!

What does that have to do with a mma fighters claiming to be the best in the world? There are many more mma venues than the ufc that lack the same level of merchandizing as the ufc. Fighters have been claiming to be the best for eons, in all events. Basketball players and competitive athletes of all kinds do it. And they are probably happy to oblige anyone who claims to be better to prove it.

 

[Zero]

What does that have to do with a mma fighters claiming to be the best in the world? There are many more mma venues than the ufc that lack the same level of merchandizing as the ufc. Fighters have been claiming to be the best for eons, in all events. Basketball players and competitive athletes of all kinds do it. And they are probably happy to oblige anyone who claims to be better to prove it.

In answer to your question, your very words being: "the difference is the fighter is an individual preparing psychologically for a match, the school is selling a product." I was making the point that in competitive, prize fighting, there is often not this degree of difference that you are stating. Yes the fighter is mentally preparing for a match but the fighter is also selling themselves, the particular fight and the overall forum, the example I used being UFC. My answer therefore has everything to do with the statement of yours that I again highlight above. Or are you saying a response is permitted to only certain of your statements, claims or questions and not others?

Further, in making such statements "I am the greatest in the world", "I am going to take him out in the first round", this can very much be hype build up for a pay-per-view fight. So I see my observation as absolutely on point.

 

[Hanzou]

As I said, use of the guard has self-defense validity as long as you understand the tactical needs of the situation and train to respond appropriately to those needs. If we don't understand the difference between working to win a fight and working to survive a self-defense situation, then we can run into trouble,

But under what circumstances would someone be confused to the point where they would be utilizing suicidal tactics in a street fight? I mean, my instructor never TOLD me to not take someone's back if someone with a baseball bat is standing behind me. I just sort of know better because its common sense. I was never trained to do knee on belly or modified mount instead of full-on-mount if I have another threat to deal with, I just do it. This is true even among sport guys whose entire application of technique revolved around sporting rules and limitations.


Again, my point is that ignoring the Guard position and its benefits in order to advocate a position that your MA isn't a sport is a pretty silly thing to do. I think we both agree that it is a very useful tool that can be utilized to great effect in a SD situation. I'm not really understanding your disagreement here.

 

[Hanzou]

I wouldn't mind seeing a video from honzou's school though. The tkd school in question demoed typical tkd fair, plenty of flash, some compliant possibly self defense, and a brief moment of typical tkd soarring complete with typical tkd high kicks (which are generally frowned upon from a sd pov).

Relson Gracie Jiu-Jitsu Academy - YouTube

That should be all of them.

 

[Mephisto]

In answer to your question, your very words being: "the difference is the fighter is an individual preparing psychologically for a match, the school is selling a product." I was making the point that in competitive, prize fighting, there is often not this degree of difference that you are stating. Yes the fighter is mentally preparing for a match but the fighter is also selling themselves, the particular fight and the overall forum, the example I used being UFC. My answer therefore has everything to do with the statement of yours that I again highlight above. Or are you saying a response is permitted to only certain of your statements, claims or questions and not others?

Further, in making such statements "I am the greatest in the world", "I am going to take him out in the first round", this can very much be hype build up for a pay-per-view fight. So I see my observation as absolutely on point.

Really? the claim by a fighter that he's the best is bragging, that's it. There's no secret conspiracy to make money via bragging for the fight promotion. Sure it makes things more interesting but I don't think there's a bragging to monetary gain relationship that you're implying. Not to mention if these are championship bouts the fighter's claim to be the best may be somewhat accurate if he's competing at the top level in his sport.

On the other hand a school claiming to teach students to "rapidly immobilize any attacker" is very different. Do you think there is truth to the statement? It should be no surprise that schools make unfounded claims to sound more appealing. Recently I saw a school that claimed to have world class instructors, no credentials or names were given, and chances are the instructirs haven't trained any world class athletes. But it sounds good to unknowledgeable potential students.

 

[Hanzou]

Then good for you my friend and long may you continue to avoid any such situations. Personally, I have very little in my repertoire that enables me to disable an assailant without "hurting" them, be it my jujitsu joint locks, which sure as hell hurt when put on to the degree required to restrain or disable a resisting and aggressive assailant or my judo throws and submissions...I don't think you can say choking someone until they pass out is not hurting them. I certainly do not want to be in a position where I am having to maintain a lock or hold (either standing or on the ground - and particularly NOT on the ground) until the coppers turn up! I have actually kept a shop lifter immobilised with a shoulder lock until the shopping mall security guards turned up but I would not have done that on the street at night where his potential mates where also on the scene...

Choking someone out is relatively painless compared to bashing their face in until they pass out, or breaking their bones. It doesn't take much to choke someone unconscious. It takes far more effort to choke someone to death.

Further, if done properly, such maneuvers should accomplish their goal relatively quickly. I've personally choked someone out (and have been choked out) in a matter of seconds. I've also witnessed people getting bones broken completely by accident. The reaction can occur quickly, and oftentimes when the first tinge of pain hits it's already too late.

I suppose that's what makes me avoid fighting; I know what I'm capable of doing to people, and its something that I want to avoid at all costs.

 

[Zero]

Choking someone out is relatively painless compared to bashing their face in until they pass out, or breaking their bones. It doesn't take much to choke someone unconscious. It takes far more effort to choke someone to death.

Further, if done properly, such maneuvers should accomplish their goal relatively quickly. I've personally choked someone out (and have been choked out) in a matter of seconds. I've also witnessed people getting bones broken completely by accident. The reaction can occur quickly, and oftentimes when the first tinge of pain hits it's already too late.

I suppose that's what makes me avoid fighting; I know what I'm capable of doing to people, and its something that I want to avoid at all costs.

I agree with all of that other than that it takes far more effort to choke someone to death. I have choked out opponents and been choked out myself through not tapping. If you have your choke on right and either the blade of your forearm or hand engaged, then it only takes a little more time to bring about death or to put your opponent/assailant in a position where they can not self-recover/ self-resuscitate and therefore succumb to death or brain damage relatively quickly. Ok, I have not thank god choked anyone to death (!!!) but I have been told by trainers, have read about it and it makes perfect physiological and medical sense that if you keep the pressure on just a bit longer then it is bye bye for good good. Happy if those in the know can tell me otherwise...

 

[Zero]

Really? the claim by a fighter that he's the best is bragging, that's it. There's no secret conspiracy to make money via bragging for the fight promotion. Sure it makes things more interesting but I don't think there's a bragging to monetary gain relationship that you're implying. Not to mention if these are championship bouts the fighter's claim to be the best may be somewhat accurate if he's competing at the top level in his sport.

On the other hand a school claiming to teach students to "rapidly immobilize any attacker" is very different. Do you think there is truth to the statement? It should be no surprise that schools make unfounded claims to sound more appealing. Recently I saw a school that claimed to have world class instructors, no credentials or names were given, and chances are the instructors haven't trained any world class athletes. But it sounds good to unknowledgeable potential students.

I am saying that the "bragging" as you put it, trash talk, pre-fight hype can well be all part of the show and that it can very much add to ticket sales and therefore does come into the monetary equation (sure often it isn't but often it is part of that picture).

If you want to disagree with that then that's cool, we can disagree on that.

I don't want to be drawn into the comments on school website claims.

But I would agree with you, if that is what you are saying, that there is a lot of schlock, nonsense, down right false claims and even false and misleading advertising and statements going on in the martial arts world and some clubs are doing that absolutely for the reason of getting people through the dojo doors to part with the hard earned cash... I wonder if this is regulated to any degree, or should be...or if that is what we of the larger MA community want?? I mean some of the claims you see, if they were made in other sectors, such as the drug industry (uh, that has its own issues!!) or food industry, people would be opening themselves up to legal proceedings and damages claims.

...I wonder if anyone has tried and successfully sued a martial arts school for claiming they would be "trained by the best" or learn "DEVASTATING, CRIPPLING MOVES" and after handing over their money for months on end none of this has resulted. A hard defence to overcome would be the standard response that, "hey, that student never applied themselves in class or never paid attention and of course we meant they had to train after school also"??

 

[Tony Dismukes]

But under what circumstances would someone be confused to the point where they would be utilizing suicidal tactics in a street fight? I mean, my instructor never TOLD me to not take someone's back if someone with a baseball bat is standing behind me. I just sort of know better because its common sense.

Being confused to the point of using highly inappropriate tactics in a street fight is pretty common. "Common sense" on the other hand, is not.

Under pressure of an emergency situation (such as a street fight), people's ability to reason out a sensible solution takes a sharp nosedive. Tunnel vision is common. There's a strong tendency to fall back onto whatever patterns are well established and easily available to your brain.

That's why...

If all your guard training is focused on sweep or submit, you are highly likely to fixate on that if you end up in the guard in a fight.

If you regularly do guard training focused on sweep, submit, or stand, then you are much more likely to have the stand/disengage reaction come out when necessary in a fight.

If you regularly do sparring/drilling where your primary focus is getting up from the bottom and disengaging, then you are even more likely to have that option mentally available to you when you need it.

My point is that too many of us in BJJ spend too much of our guard time focusing on just the sweep and submit options.

Again, my point is that ignoring the Guard position and its benefits in order to advocate a position that your MA isn't a sport is a pretty silly thing to do. I think we both agree that it is a very useful tool that can be utilized to great effect in a SD situation. I'm not really understanding your disagreement here.

We're certainly agreed that the guard has its place in the self-defense toolbox. On the other hand, almost none of us really spend a lot of time training every potentially useful tool. Everyone has different priorities. I'm sure the FMA folks could ask why we spend so much time focusing on unarmed techniques and neglect tools like a knife, which is much more of a force multiplier.

 

[Hanzou]

I agree with all of that other than that it takes far more effort to choke someone to death. I have choked out opponents and been choked out myself through not tapping. If you have your choke on right and either the blade of your forearm or hand engaged, then it only takes a little more time to bring about death or to put your opponent/assailant in a position where they can not self-recover/ self-resuscitate and therefore succumb to death or brain damage relatively quickly. Ok, I have not thank god choked anyone to death (!!!) but I have been told by trainers, have read about it and it makes perfect physiological and medical sense that if you keep the pressure on just a bit longer then it is bye bye for good good. Happy if those in the know can tell me otherwise...

What's your definition of "a little more time"? There's no way you kill someone with a choke in a matter of seconds. Pass out? Definitely.

 

[Mephisto]

Being confused to the point of using highly inappropriate tactics in a street fight is pretty common. "Common sense" on the other hand, is not.

Under pressure of an emergency situation (such as a street fight), people's ability to reason out a sensible solution takes a sharp nosedive. Tunnel vision is common. There's a strong tendency to fall back onto whatever patterns are well established and easily available to your brain.

That's why...

If all your guard training is focused on sweep or submit, you are highly likely to fixate on that if you end up in the guard in a fight.

If you regularly do guard training focused on sweep, submit, or stand, then you are much more likely to have the stand/disengage reaction come out when necessary in a fight.

If you regularly do sparring/drilling where your primary focus is getting up from the bottom and disengaging, then you are even more likely to have that option mentally available to you when you need it.

My point is that too many of us in BJJ spend too much of our guard time focusing on just the sweep and submit options.



We're certainly agreed that the guard has its place in the self-defense toolbox. On the other hand, almost none of us really spend a lot of time training every potentially useful tool. Everyone has different priorities. I'm sure the FMA folks could ask why we spend so much time focusing on unarmed techniques and neglect tools like a knife, which is much more of a force multiplier.

I'd like to think I'm more down to earth than some of the FMA guys I'm friends with and talk to. Knife defense is highly speculative, and anyone with a knife is a "master" if you're unarmed. Unlike bjj, striking or unarmed arts where generally the higher ranks greatly outclass the lower ranks, I think the gap is much smaller when dealing with a high risk situation like knife vs unarmed. Knife training is beneficial but unless you're an unsavory character chances are most knife guys in the States just don't have the experience to claim to be an expert. Most people have been in a fight, even if it was as a youth but much fewer have faced a blade. Statistically I think it's not as important of a skill as many FMA guys would have you believe, but it doesn't hurt. The same goes for the guys that train with the "stick represents a blade" mentality. At least in the states I think stick as an impact weapon has much more applicability. How many people do you guys know that have faced a ~2 ft blade? What about another impact weapon improvised or not? You might be lucky enough to find an improvised stick in an attack and might be unlucky enough to face one. But your chances of facing a ~2 ft blade are very slim.