Shifting the Stance vs Turning the Waist

[LFJ]

Do you practice any stances? YJKYM for instance? Why, you aren't going to just stand there and fight that way.

Not in fighting, but some people do use it (or think they'll use it) as a fighting stance and advance or pivot out of it, which is nonsense.

What I said was slow the video down and you will see some pivoting of one foot at a time.
Yes I did see some familiar footwork. Also saw a lot of ugly chaotic footwork as well.

I slowed it down. All I saw was ugly chaotic footwork; nothing I would call pivoting or want to do myself.

Video yourself sparring. I'm betting there will be times even you will pivot only one foot.

Like LT or JW style? Certainly not.

 

[PiedmontChun]

Many things could work against someone who has poor strategy. Doesn't make them good habits.

The problem with pivoting on the balls of the feet one foot at a time and swaying the central axis off line and weighting the rear leg is that if the opponent doesn't overcommit like dumb bull but knows how to reface and chase center, the person pivoting like this will be stuck with no mobility and nowhere to go and be run over.

I think its a mistake to believe a pivot or turn is a dead end that ceases your mobility. A pivot / turn can easily become a step if needed, it all depends on pressure. For your opponent to reface requires movement you would sense since there is a bridge formed. So I don't follow the line of reasoning.

Not in fighting, but some people do use it (or think they'll use it) as a fighting stance and advance or pivot out of it, which is nonsense.

Its nonsense to think you can advance or defend from a squared stance? You can move forward, backward, backward at an angle, to the side, plum blossom to circle opponents leg.... all from traditional squared stance. In that respect, it is the least committed and versatile stance that there is.

 

[wckf92]

For your opponent to reface requires movement you would sense since there is a bridge formed.

Not all WC subscribes to having a "bridge" in order to "fight"

 

[wckf92]

Its nonsense to think you can advance or defend from a squared stance? You can move forward, backward, backward at an angle, to the side, plum blossom to circle opponents leg.... all from traditional squared stance. In that respect, it is the least committed and versatile stance that there is.

Kind of agree with this...

 

[JowGaWolf]

But to be clear, not all Wing Chun was created equal. My lineage does not pivot like this. We maintain even distribution and are very mobile as if "gliding" as we move, never swaying our center axis and overloading one side

My approach for dealing with Pivots is not the same as dealing with "gliding". But you are right. The way that I would attack a pivot would not work on "gliding"

Couldn't really see the feet well in those clips

I know that the way a form looks in practice rarely looks the same in actual fight application, so I tried to pick movements that were similar to what was posted in regards to pivoting and swaying. I didn't slow any of the videos down to be 100% sure so it's possible that I could have easily mistaken a movement.

 

[Eric_H]

Chiming in my thoughts on Yee Gee Kim Yeung Ma as a fighting stance:

1) At long range it's not great. Leung Yi Ma side stance or Buhn Yuet Ma Forward stance are built for 6 gate fighting, better to use them.
2) Once you've bridged, it's essential if you're pull off any Loi Lau Hoi Sung/Move to a Deui Ying front facing body. If you're Jeui Ying (angled facing) you'll still use the body verbiage of Yee Gee Kim Yeung Ma as an action in the different stances to receive and escort energy.

That said, my lineage doesn't pivot like I learned in the Moy Yat branch of WC, nor do we turn the waist as presented by the OP. I've found some massive flaws in both TBH.

 

[JowGaWolf]

That said, my lineage doesn't pivot like I learned in the Moy Yat branch of WC, nor do we turn the waist as presented by the OP. I've found some massive flaws in both TBH

I would like to know what flaws you see with using the waist as presented by the OP. I'm not in argument, just curious just in case that this flaw exists in Jow Ga.

 

[Jake104]

I would like to know what flaws you see with using the waist as presented by the OP. I'm not in argument, just curious just in case that this flaw exists in Jow Ga.

I see a lack of mobility and disconnection.

In the video he shows shifting as possibly loosing root? You loose root because the forward energy goes away. His energy isn't forward like when he shifts w/o moving the feet.IMO You can shift either way as shown in video and still maintain root if forward energy is present.

In fighting I prefer to have options. So as long as I ALWAYS have forward energy it really doesn't matter what my feet do. I think what my hip and knees are doing is more important than what my feet do. With proper structure my feet will align with hip, knee etc. IMO, A lot of WC people get too caught up with static structure. They are obsessed with how strong there stance is or how much pressure it can hold. Structure in motion is way more important. Moving around while being punched or taken down changes things.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Thanks Jake104
This definitely doesn't sound like a flaw that exists in Jow Ga. It's probably because our movements are different from WC. I'm definitely learning more about WC and how people learn it.

 

[Jake104]

I wouldn't call it a flaw. What's flawed is the training methods. I can make either way work. Although I'm not a fan of either... Now does this mean I don't do either, or I only do it some other way? No, I've just learned how to move myself as a unit while constantly maintaining proper forward energy and structure. In a fight I take what I get, but I give the same regardless of what position I happen to be in. This comes from realistic training under pressure.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Jake 104
Thanks for the clarification

 

[LFJ]

I think its a mistake to believe a pivot or turn is a dead end that ceases your mobility. A pivot / turn can easily become a step if needed, it all depends on pressure.

Not all pivoting or turning is the same. As it is done in LTWT, for example, they let the opponent turn them as they sway their central axis to one side and overload the rear leg. Imo, that strategy is flawed and against a good center chaser, not hand chaser, or anyone not dumb as a bull, they put themselves in a vulnerable position that there is no time to step out of as their attacker seamlessly continues to pressure them over that weighted leg and socks them in the jaw. They are easily run over.

For your opponent to reface requires movement you would sense since there is a bridge formed. So I don't follow the line of reasoning.

You think you will attach to someone's arm as they are seriously trying to hit you, and you will sense some movement and take your next step based on that all in the nanosecond it takes for another punch to be thrown? I think you spend too much time in chi-sau and not out of it.

Its nonsense to think you can advance or defend from a squared stance? You can move forward, backward, backward at an angle, to the side, plum blossom to circle opponents leg.... all from traditional squared stance. In that respect, it is the least committed and versatile stance that there is.

As shown in the video from the OP, he's standing in his squared stance as an attacker comes in trying to hit him. You seriously think anyone would get away with just pivoting and hitting them back, or not even pivoting, or even stepping straight into the attack to intercept? This only works when you have likeminded friends throwing uncommitted attacks for demos or dead drills. Try fighting a boxer or kickboxer like that and see how versatile you are. You will not be standing in this training stance when you face them. It's complete nonsense.

Too much chi-sau with bad ideas and only playing with other WC guys is the problem.

 

[wckf92]

Structure in motion is way more important.

Awesome statement, and quite true!

 

[wckf92]

...
What's flawed is the training methods...
I've just learned how to move myself as a unit while constantly maintaining proper forward energy and structure...
This comes from realistic training under pressure...

Another awesome post...
YOUR BODY IS A UNIT, TRAIN IT LIKE ONE!

 

[Punchy]

Not all pivoting or turning is the same. As it is done in LTWT, for example, they let the opponent turn them as they sway their central axis to one side and overload the rear leg. Imo, that strategy is flawed and against a good center chaser, not hand chaser, or anyone not dumb as a bull, they put themselves in a vulnerable position that there is no time to step out of as their attacker seamlessly continues to pressure them over that weighted leg and socks them in the jaw. They are easily run over.
.

You are taking this one concept of WT and isolating it. There is more footwork in LTWT than simply pivoting/shifting.
Not to mention that while we are doing this we are not passive; there are attacks taking place.

 

[PiedmontChun]

Not all pivoting or turning is the same. As it is done in LTWT, for example, they let the opponent turn them as they sway their central axis to one side and overload the rear leg. Imo, that strategy is flawed and against a good center chaser, not hand chaser, or anyone not dumb as a bull, they put themselves in a vulnerable position that there is no time to step out of as their attacker seamlessly continues to pressure them over that weighted leg and socks them in the jaw. They are easily run over.



You think you will attach to someone's arm as they are seriously trying to hit you, and you will sense some movement and take your next step based on that all in the nanosecond it takes for another punch to be thrown? I think you spend too much time in chi-sau and not out of it.

As shown in the video from the OP, he's standing in his squared stance as an attacker comes in trying to hit him. You seriously think anyone would get away with just pivoting and hitting them back, or not even pivoting, or even stepping straight into the attack to intercept? This only works when you have likeminded friends throwing uncommitted attacks for demos or dead drills. Try fighting a boxer or kickboxer like that and see how versatile you are. You will not be standing in this training stance when you face them. It's complete nonsense.

Too much chi-sau with bad ideas and only playing with other WC guys is the problem.

I think we will have to agree to disagree: I believe you describe a caricature of WT. Even allowing your opponent to shift you is not completely passive. There should still be forward pressure toward the opponent even though the facing angle has just changed. Maybe you've watched too many bad videos of people shifting as they deflect an attack and then stop to pose there with an "AHA" look on their face as if there there is nothing that follows, or with their pressure directed AWAY from the opponent,. A shift is often momentary, transitional, and leads into a step if needed, but above all it deflects while finding an opportunity to strike.

It seems like most of the threads you comment heavily on go down the rabbit hole of dismissing chi-sau, dogging other lineages, and bashing WC people who train mostly against WC people, etc. *Yawn*

 

[LFJ]

You are taking this one concept of WT and isolating it.

It's the topic of this thread.

There is more footwork in LTWT than simply pivoting/shifting. Not to mention that while we are doing this we are not passive; there are attacks taking place.

Yeah, equally as uh, questionable.

@3:44 in this video he tries to show the pivot and it fails. lol Then he asks the guy to come slowly so he can show what he meant to do, but then tries to cover the goof up by saying "who cares" if he gets knocked out of position so badly. Well, he'd better care if he were really being attacked...

LTWT followers think people are going to go sailing past them if they just pivot and shift their weight over like that. It's clueless noob strategy. Who is going to completely run by like that, besides maybe a drunken idiot? And it becomes a central idea in that system.

Even using simultaneous attacks, it puts you in a bad position where mobility is hampered and posture is vulnerable. Don't forget the attacker has hands too and can change direction seamlessly and take you right over, by striking or grappling. If you think you're going to shift to the side and weight the rear leg and they'll just go sailing by, you're a dreamer.

@7:53 his kicking technique also fails in exactly the same way he criticized another method would. lol

Lastly, the "stance inserting footwork" works maybe on your WT mates, but against a boxer you're stepping right between their arms and into the "pocket", the worst place to be! Good luck getting there, and surviving if you do!

It's much more intelligent to fight their flanks and prevent them from refacing or let them over rotate as you stay squared and fight half a man, rather than having to worry about which side he's going to be punching from as you're moving right up the middle.

When I see strategy like this, I genuinely question the fighting experience of its advocates.

 

[LFJ]

It seems like most of the threads you comment heavily on go down the rabbit hole of dismissing chi-sau, dogging other lineages, and bashing WC people who train mostly against WC people, etc. *Yawn*

I've never dismissed chi-sau, only certain approaches to/ understandings of it. But what can I say? Rarely are threads started on good ideas, so I comment on those bad ideas. Maybe my point of view gives some readers something to think about.

What is the OP's approval rating amongst other posters here anyway? He has generally not earned many supporters of his method with what he shows and describes in most of his clips.

 

[wckf92]

What is the OP's approval rating amongst other posters here anyway? He has generally not earned many supporters of his method with what he shows and describes in most of his clips.

True.
Most of his vids (while appreciative for him posting them, for discussion sake) are what appears to be him dealing with students of his. Hard to judge whether this guy can handle himself or not based on the stuff he posts.
The one thing I like about his vids is that he is starting to restrict his views and comments to his "modified" MCM interpretation of WC... (since I think he said he has learned an Yip Man version and a Fut Sao version)... instead of to the entire WC community as a whole.

 

[Danny T]

I will allow that most of what is shown as to Chi Sao is presented as this is how to fight. And I disagree with that chi sao is nothing more than an exercise and drilling. Bits and pieces may be use from time to time but it certainly isn't about fighting. It is about feeling and not much more. I've seen several approaches and understand what and why but again it isn't about fighting it is about play their chi sao game.
As to pivoting and footwork we have far more than just standing in YJKYM and pivoting. There is the learning to pivot stage, learning to shift the body stage, there is turning the body from a 50/50 weight distribution to a 90/10, a 80/20, a 70/30/, a 60/40, and to a 50/50 all depending upon what is needed based upon the situation at any one particular point in time. If one needs to step off line and turn into the opponent then that is what we will do.
There is forms and drills. Training and practice. Then there is practical application. What one does with the attributes one has developed. Every situation will be different and require a different response.