wckf92
Master of Arts
The forms are entirely abstract.
CK shifting also develops torque for whole body knockout power.
Yep...correct!
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The forms are entirely abstract.
CK shifting also develops torque for whole body knockout power.
LFJ, I agree with you here and I am not talking about standing squared. I am talking about training and then using the training in a fight situation. We are using the video as the example for 'training'. Learning; which is what form work is about. Application is another thing.You're all talking about applying this and it being situational how you pivot, but do you really think you will be standing squared with feet parallel in front of an opponent as he's seriously attacking you, and you will handle him standing still? That is how this is presented and how you're discussing it, like chi-sau in a fight.
For me, that's not at all what CK shifting is for. We don't take movements from the forms and try to apply them as-is in fighting. The forms are entirely abstract. Shifting in CK is done vigorously with sudden stops to purposely test our rotation and balance, even to the point of almost over rotating or losing balance, which are common mistakes beginners make and what we want to cause our opponents to do. And this is testing ourselves in solo training, not even dealing with a partner or opponent yet. Keeping the feet planted or shifting one foot at a time to maintain stability takes the testing out of it and is just considering applications.
CK shifting also develops torque for whole body knockout power. But it is not applied stationary as it appears in the forms. Forms and chi-sau are just training. Fighting is dynamic and we need to be mobile or we get run over, taken down, or knocked out.
I didn't take it this way. Fights are fluid so there will be a lot of movement and I can't see a fighting system assuming that the opponent will stay still. I think many people misinterpret the forms and in such will actually try to fight the same way that they do when they are doing the form. In reality the forms make it easier to understand the technique. Once you learn technique then comes the challenge of actually learning how to use it in a real fight situation which is almost never the same as the form.You're all talking about applying this and it being situational how you pivot, but do you really think you will be standing squared with feet parallel in front of an opponent as he's seriously attacking you, and you will handle him standing still?
I agree. This is where the ability to quickly root comes into play.even to the point of almost over rotating or losing balance, which are common mistakes beginners make
I agree with this 100% many kung fu students assume that the attacks are stationary. The majority of the attacks should be done when rooted, but rooted could mean staying there for 10 seconds or being there for only 1 second and then move.But it is not applied stationary as it appears in the forms. Forms and chi-sau are just training. Fighting is dynamic and we need to be mobile or we get run over, taken down, or knocked out.
...CK shifting also develops torque for whole body knockout power. But it is not applied stationary as it appears in the forms. Forms and chi-sau are just training. Fighting is dynamic and we need to be mobile or we get run over, taken down, or knocked out.
LFJ, I agree with you here and I am not talking about standing squared. I am talking about training and then using the training in a fight situation. We are using the video as the example for 'training'. Learning; which is what form work is about. Application is another thing.
As to the forms being entirely abstract. Naw they certainly present abstract ideas but much of the physical presentation within the forms are not. How those presentations are utilized are abstract.
Danny, does your WC have any connection to WT? I ask because the WT people are the only ones I've run into who strongly preach the one foot at a time approach to turning,
You are correct it does limit mobility. I think this is one of the cases where the stance is shown and people make the assumption that they are supposed to do this stance through the entire fight. For example, I wouldn't try to do a cat stance through an entire fight. A kung fu cat stance only has good forward mobility, ok backward mobility, and no side-to-side mobility. The cat stance in my style of kung fu is similar to what I've seen in the videos where the WC practitioner pivots on one leg meaning making the supporting leg rooted. When one leg is rooted like that then the mobility is greatly decreased. Like Danny T touched on. There's a time and place for the stance and the technique.So, I don't agree with the one foot at a time thing. I think it limits mobility and creates bad position by taking yourself off line and weighting the rear leg, and I don't find it applicable in the chaos of a fight, and therefore don't see it's place in training. What exactly do you do it for?
Agreed. That's the situation he show and how he would use the way he pivots or doesn't.The OP says this video shows how he would apply it in certain situations, and demonstrates a scenario where he's standing squared and has an attacker come punching at him and all he needs to do is shift or turn his waist...
Nope. Wouldn't be concerned about it at all for if needed, due to the training and practice I have done, it would simply happen. Just as if I were to punch as a boxer using a jab/straight right/left hook combination I would pivot one foot at a time.The video just posted by JowGaWolf may be sloppy, but it's a good example of the chaos of a fight. When, in such chaos, would you be concerned with pivoting one foot at a time to shift your body to one side or the other?
I think if you would view the video in slow motion you will see several points where feet are being pivoted one at a time.I think you'll find when someone is really attacking you, you will be a lot more mobile and never be pivoting like that. So, I don't see the point in giving it such detailed focus in training.
Yep.What one needs is a mobile stance able to maintain rooting while in constant motion to deliver knockout or stopping force at any moment.
We simply disagree.So, I don't agree with the one foot at a time thing. I think it limits mobility and creates bad position by taking yourself off line and weighting the rear leg, and I don't find it applicable in the chaos of a fight, and therefore don't see it's place in training. What exactly do you do it for?
Nope. Wouldn't be concerned about it at all for if needed, due to the training and practice I have done, it would simply happen.
I think if you would view the video in slow motion you will see several points where feet are being pivoted one at a time.
Keep sparring empty hands and vs weapons. You may one day see the practicality. If not, it's ok.
Geezer; not connected to WT. Our linage is Jiu Wan from Foshan. According to my Sifu (Francis Fong) Jiu Wan beginning at the age of 8 first learned from his uncle Jiu Jow who learned from Chan Wah Shun and then Jiu Wan trained directly under Chan Wah Shun and is where he met Ip Man. Both were in the Police Association in Foshan and became friends. They became associates again when Jiu Wan move to Hong Kong. He trained and taught in Ip's school for a while and then opened his own school about a year afterwards. He and Ip remained friends until Ip's death.
The video just posted by JowGaWolf may be sloppy, but it's a good example of the chaos of a fight. When, in such chaos, would you be concerned with pivoting one foot at a time to shift your body to one side or the other? Or when would you be standing still and only turning your waist?
I think you'll find when someone is really attacking you, you will be a lot more mobile and never be pivoting like that. So, I don't see the point in giving it such detailed focus in training.
What one needs is a mobile stance able to maintain rooting while in constant motion to deliver knockout or stopping force at any moment.
So, I don't agree with the one foot at a time thing. I think it limits mobility and creates bad position by taking yourself off line and weighting the rear leg, and I don't find it applicable in the chaos of a fight, and therefore don't see it's place in training. What exactly do you do it for?
Just go kamikaze.Why practice anything with any precision if fighting is chaos?
Do you practice any stances? YJKYM for instance? Why, you aren't going to just stand there and fight that way.What I mean is pivoting one foot at a time versus same time or not at all. There is a lot of debate in training, but no one is going to be standing and pivoting like that in fighting anyway.
What I said was slow the video down and you will see some pivoting of one foot at a time.I didn't see even one point where any such pivoting was done. You saw familiar footwork in that clip? That's how you move?
No answer to how it is used or why. Video yourself sparring. I'm betting there will be times even you will pivot only one foot.So no answer then? I'm just wondering where outside your training one would use this footwork. Are there any videos online of sparring empty hands and vs weapons that show it working?
So that the reaction will become habit. Like DannyT has stated often, what you do and how you respond is going to depend greatly on the situation. You mentioned that you "overcommitted or barreled in on one of my si-hings in chi-sau or sparring" The pivot worked well against you because you were overcommitted. Never overcommit with an attack. I'm always trying to bait people that I spar with to overcommit because it's much easier to counter an overcommitted attack.Why practice anything with any precision if fighting is chaos?
So that the reaction will become habit. Like DannyT has stated often, what you do and how you respond is going to depend greatly on the situation. You mentioned that you "overcommitted or barreled in on one of my si-hings in chi-sau or sparring" The pivot worked well against you because you were overcommitted. Never overcommit with an attack. I'm always trying to bait people that I spar with to overcommit because it's much easier to counter an overcommitted attack.
My personal rule is to attack when someone isn't committed and to counter when they commit.
I have learnt the Ip Man forms where it is?
ha ha ha. I got it. It didn't fly over my head. ha ha ha. I only responded the way that I did just in case someone missed it. I've been in a couple of discussions where people really didn't understand of repetitive practice.Haha. My question was very rhetorical
Overcommitting is really easy to do, it's more of a lack of patience than a mistake. Even the best fighters will overcommitt from time to time. People who seem to like power more than technique tend to be more willing to do it.My example of overcommitting is just me being honest that I train with people better than me
You mentioned that you "overcommitted or barreled in on one of my si-hings in chi-sau or sparring" The pivot worked well against you because you were overcommitted.
If I had to sparr against someone that does WC then I would fake an overcommitted attack with the purpose of identifying which leg he would use to pivot on. Or I would attack heavy on one side as a misdirection so that I could make him pivot on the leg of my choice.
Better examples of Pivots 7:28 too lazy to name the rest but by now it should be clear that pivots work when done at the right time against the right attack.