Shifting the Stance vs Turning the Waist

[LFJ]

Absolutely. But then that would not be chi sao would it?

What? Free fighting? Of course not. Or do you mean not using sensitivity to fight people throwing punches at us? You mean you try to chi-sau a guy as he's punching at you? How's that going?

Ok, but that is also a byproduct of the training it isn't that one does so without practicing in contact with another.

It's a byproduct, says you. I don't think you understand what byproduct means. It's often an unintended or incidental product. What I've been describing are the actual purpose of our training; to condition these automatic behaviors for fighting.

When WSL said sensitivity is a byproduct of the training, but not the goal, he meant that it's an unintended and incidental result of mutual contact training in chi-sau drills, but we don't focus on developing it to use in a free fighting strategy where there is no pre- or prolonged arm contact. People who base their system on this type of thing often look for connection in sparring / fighting and end up eating punches.

Ok and most striking type fighting has only short instances of contact. Again not chi sao and can be taught without chi sao training.

Other striking systems don't use our methods. Chi-sau is a stage used in the development of our striking methods. And if you think there will be long instances of contact when punches are being thrown at you at lightning speed, it's likely to be you in contact with the floor...

Ok.
I agreed with everything here and when one is in a position where your one arm is trapping or controlling the opponent's two arms you telling me you don't feel that? And when the opponent moves an arm or changes angles you don't feel that either?

I think you are oversimplifying your concept of "feeling" to just mean physical sensation, as in a faculty of a normal human being, so that I'll concede that I use your methods too. But what you really mean by feeling, in the context of your system, is some sort of ting-lik, "listening to energy" skill that is developed through your chi-sau training, isn't it? You do not simply mean the faculty of any normal sentient human being having awareness of physical contact, as that would not require chi-sau training to develop either.

I don't know why you want me to agree with you. Would that validate your method? We do different things. I don't over-trap by sticking to an opponent's arm to feel or "listen" to their energy and attempt to manipulate it in some fashion or choose my next move based on what I sense.

I displace and strike with a single limb in a single action. Even when using a helping hand to displace and open the line for striking with pak / jat / bong, etc., the displacing limb immediately recycles to become the next striking hand in order to continue the flow of attack. The centerline is controlled by spatial domination, not by sticking and over-trapping.

It's hard to wrap your head around if you aren't familiar with the method, but hopefully I've explained enough for you to drop the idea that I must be using feeling like you. What would make your Wing Chun different from any other martial art, since any normal human being also feels when contact is made?

 

[JowGaWolf]

Boy, the Hung Ga really stands out in the first, "Small Tiger" form. Great forms. Very impressive. Cool looking and obviously physically demanding. How does it hold up in free application? Do you guys spar against other systems ...Karate, boxers, WC, etc.?

If there was a term than physically demanding, it would be that lol. It holds up really well with free application. My school actually dedicates 2 hours every Thursday to abandoning the form and focusing on free application. We first start out with what feels natural to us and then slowly build on it by adding a slightly difficult technique.

We spar against other fighting styles because that's the only way to learn how to really use it and it helps us to understand the movement and tactics of other fighting styles. So far I've sparred against, Muay Thai, TKD, MMA, Sanda, WC, and Shuai Jiao practicioners. We spar against all sizes and weights so that we can learn how to adjust for when our opponent is bigger or smaller than we are. The grapplers are the most beneficial to spar against because it allows us to work on our techniques that are supposed to help us prevent someone from grabbing us. TKD helps us with agility because they have really good kicks, Sanda and MMA helps us to understand our stances better and how to use our stances to avoid and counter shoots. Muay Thai reminds us that we need to condition our legs. lol. WC helps us to be better with fighting at angles because WC practitioners like the center line and often take it to an extreme.

 

[JowGaWolf]

In order to avoid it, you should try to stand in such a way that your opponent can not get both of your legs at the same time. Here is a good example.

The double leg take downs are easy to avoid if you understand how they work. In the video the WC guy makes a lot of mistakes with dealing with the shoot.
1. He tries to punch the shoot instead of securing his root.
2. He removes his hand from around his opponent when he should have been sinking all of his weight on top of his opponent and wrapping his hands around his opponents torso to squeeze and compress that chest to make breathing difficult for the guy.
3. He knew he had low grappling skills so he should have been super sensitive towards an attempt to be put on the ground.

A wider stance would have definitely given him a better chance to escape the shoot.

 

[Danny T]

What? Free fighting? Of course not. Or do you mean not using sensitivity to fight people throwing punches at us? You mean you try to chi-sau a guy as he's punching at you? How's that going?

Never said anything about trying to chi sao a guy as he is punching... You said; "free fighting outside of chi-sau where there is no such contact. Sensitivity is not used to fight against people throwing punches at us." I agreed with you and stated that would not be chi sao. Not trying to argue with you here I agreed with you. Free fighting is not chi sao.

It's a byproduct, says you. I don't think you understand what byproduct means. It's often an unintended or incidental product. What I've been describing are the actual purpose of our training; to condition these automatic behaviors for fighting.

When WSL said sensitivity is a byproduct of the training, but not the goal, he meant that it's an unintended and incidental result of mutual contact training in chi-sau drills, but we don't focus on developing it to use in a free fighting strategy where there is no pre- or prolonged arm contact. People who base their system on this type of thing often look for connection in sparring / fighting and end up eating punches.

Other striking systems don't use our methods. Chi-sau is a stage used in the development of our striking methods. And if you think there will be long instances of contact when punches are being thrown at you at lightning speed, it's likely to be you in contact with the floor...

I never said nor did I ever insinuate in free fighting one would be in long instances of contact. Chi Sao is an exercise, a drill, It Is Not Fighting. I Agree With You. You disagree with me in that Chi Sao is about feeling. Ok.
Again I agree Chi Sao is not free fighting.

I think you are oversimplifying your concept of "feeling" to just mean physical sensation, as in a faculty of a normal human being, so that I'll concede that I use your methods too. But what you really mean by feeling, in the context of your system, is some sort of ting-lik, "listening to energy" skill that is developed through your chi-sau training, isn't it? You do not simply mean the faculty of any normal sentient human being having awareness of physical contact, as that would not require chi-sau training to develop either.

I never said anything about ting-lik or listening to energy. Never alluded to anything special or mystical. I simply said and feel chi sao is about feeling. Feeling pressure, feeling the direction of the force being applied and when it changes during the roll. (which by the way is an attack and counter-attack action) We don't simple roll. We roll with the purpose of attacking.

I don't know why you want me to agree with you. Would that validate your method? We do different things.

Ok. I never asked you to agree with me. I simple stated my opinion.

I don't over-trap by sticking to an opponent's arm to feel or "listen" to their energy and attempt to manipulate it in some fashion or choose my next move based on what I sense.
I displace and strike with a single limb in a single action. Even when using a helping hand to displace and open the line for striking with pak / jat / bong, etc., the displacing limb immediately recycles to become the next striking hand in order to continue the flow of attack. The centerline is controlled by spatial domination, not by sticking and over-trapping.

What happens when your attack does not displace but is displaced or prevented and your next striking hand is also displace or prevented from making its attack?

It's hard to wrap your head around if you aren't familiar with the method, but hopefully I've explained enough for you to drop the idea that I must be using feeling like you. What would make your Wing Chun different from any other martial art, since any normal human being also feels when contact is made?

I never said you must be using feeling like me.

 

[LFJ]

You said; "free fighting outside of chi-sau where there is no such contact. Sensitivity is not used to fight against people throwing punches at us." I agreed with you and stated that would not be chi sao. Not trying to argue with you here I agreed with you. Free fighting is not chi sao.

Okay then. Thank you, Capt. Obvious.

Why is sensitivity your primary focus in chi-sau if you agree it's not used in fighting?

I never said nor did I ever insinuate in free fighting one would be in long instances of contact.

You said "most" striking style "fighting" has "only" short instances of contact. Sounds like you think there is another striking style of fighting that has more than short instances of contact, and I can only assume that's your WC and you train for this in chi-sau...

I never said anything about ting-lik or listening to energy. Never alluded to anything special or mystical. I simply said and feel chi sao is about feeling. Feeling pressure, feeling the direction of the force being applied and when it changes during the roll.

If chi-sau is "about" feeling and "not much else" as you said, that tells me your mindset is primarily in feeling things through arm contact and what you might do about it. That is called ting-lik. Nothing mystical about it. It's a skill you can develop when you have people playing along in your chi-sau. Its practicality as a fighting tactic is another issue though.

In the system I train, feeling things like that is not the focus. The only reason we're in contact is to exchange force to develop lower body and elbow power connection for punching concepts, check and improve alignment, angles, coordination, balance, footwork, etc.. We don't care about sensitivity. We want to control space, not arms. If an arm gets in the way, it gets displaced or we take a better line. There is simply no time to be feeling out details of force in our opponent's arms and decide where to go from there as punches are flying in free fighting. You need to move your and hit.

What happens when your attack does not displace but is displaced or prevented and your next striking hand is also displace or prevented from making its attack?

You're seriously asking me to give you a play by play three or more moves into a hypothetical fight? How do I know what will happen in a fight until I'm in it? Either I will hit them or they will hit me. It's not like "chi-sau sections", which we don't do in my lineage. So, I don't know what kind of answer you're looking for.

Yes, I have methods for continuing an interrupted attack, but no, it is not to feel out some information on my arms and manipulate the opponent's arms in some way or determine my next move based on that gathered intelligence... if that's what you're hoping I'll concede. There's no time for such nonsense.

 

[Danny T]

Okay then. Thank you, Capt. Obvious.

Interesting.

Why is sensitivity your primary focus in chi-sau if you agree it's not used in fighting?

Huh. I must have missed something because my comment was based upon you stating "free fighting outside of chi-sau where there is no such contact." Again I was agreeing with you. If there is no contact there is no chi sao type contact.

You said "most" striking style "fighting" has "only" short instances of contact. Sounds like you think there is another striking style of fighting that has more than short instances of contact, and I can only assume that's your WC and you train for this in chi-sau...

Actually Boxing has a clinch element (lots of contact) Muay Thai has a very strong clinch element with punching, elbowing, and kneeing out of it (lots of contact), several Karate systems utilize a lot of arm contact, grabs, and clinch type of action as well (again a lot of contact). Your assuming is understandable but we train for a lot of different actions not just other wing chun people.

If chi-sau is "about" feeling and "not much else" as you said, that tells me your mindset is primarily in feeling things through arm contact and what you might do about it. That is called ting-lik. Nothing mystical about it. It's a skill you can develop when you have people playing along in your chi-sau. Its practicality as a fighting tactic is another issue though.

In the system I train, feeling things like that is not the focus. The only reason we're in contact is to exchange force to develop lower body and elbow power connection for punching concepts, check and improve alignment, angles, coordination, balance, footwork, etc.. We don't care about sensitivity. We want to control space, not arms. If an arm gets in the way, it gets displaced or we take a better line. There is simply no time to be feeling out details of force in our opponent's arms and decide where to go from there as punches are flying in free fighting. You need to move your and hit.

Ok. There are other drills we utilize that is more on line of fighting than chi sao.
We do several different things as I'm sure you do as well depended upon range, timing, and what the opponent does as well.
What happens when you are clinched or in a standing grappling situation or even on the ground and the other person has the advantages. If that has never happened to you then you haven't trained enough.

You're seriously asking me to give you a play by play three or more moves into a hypothetical fight? How do I know what will happen in a fight until I'm in it? Either I will hit them or they will hit me. It's not like "chi-sau sections", which we don't do in my lineage. So, I don't know what kind of answer you're looking for.

Wasn't my intent for any particular answer. You have stated your opinion and position, ok. I've stated mine. It's all good.

Yes, I have methods for continuing an interrupted attack, but no, it is not to feel out some information on my arms and manipulate the opponent's arms in some way or determine my next move based on that gathered intelligence... if that's what you're hoping I'll concede. There's no time for such nonsense.

So how do you know that your attack was interrupted? How do you know what would be your next move? I never said anything about gathering intelligence and determining the next move. I never said anything about a preplanned response or some kind of chi sao sections. (that was your terms).
I never stated anything about manipulating the opponent's arms. Can that be done, yes. But it isn't why we chi sao.
We use chi sao as an exercise to feel pressure, force vectors, maintain good structure, striking angles and weaknesses all while controlling the space and lines. In my training Chi Sao is an exercise/drill; it is not fighting however there are many skills and attributes developed within the practice of chi sao one will utilize in a fight.
I'm not wanting nor have I requested you to concede anything.
My questions are for discussion, not to upset you or to prove anything.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Your assuming is understandable but we train for a lot of different actions not just other wing chun people.

Training to deal with other people and not just with people who fight using the same system is what makes the martial art useful.

 

[Phobius]

Just make sure to not confuse skin sensitivity with feeling a force. The former gives you a false illusion of perfection during chi-sao, the later is my belief the goal of understanding how to react in that split second when your arm connects with an opponents incoming or outgoing force. I do not care for the former but am still far from controlling the later.

 

[LFJ]

Actually Boxing has a clinch element (lots of contact) Muay Thai has a very strong clinch element with punching, elbowing, and kneeing out of it (lots of contact), several Karate systems utilize a lot of arm contact, grabs, and clinch type of action as well (again a lot of contact). Your assuming is understandable but we train for a lot of different actions not just other wing chun people.

None of those styles to my knowledge attempt to establish and maintain arm contact while punches are being thrown, which is how many Wing Chun guys interpret "seeking the bridge" and "sticking". That kind of prolonged arm contact is not clinching or grabbing, and it only works inside chi-sau with likeminded individuals.

What happens when you are clinched or in a standing grappling situation or even on the ground and the other person has the advantages.

You're one of those guys who thinks they'll use chi-sau to get out of a grappling situation, are you? If I'm in a position to use Ving Tsun I will do so to prevent the clinch or standing grappling situation, but I have no delusions about the scope of VT. If I am taken to the ground, it will not be VT that helps me escape.

So how do you know that your attack was interrupted?

It doesn't hit the target.

How do you know what would be your next move?

I don't. I train to condition non-thinking behaviors for fighting.

We use chi sao as an exercise to feel pressure

For what purpose?

 

[Tony Dismukes]

The instructor in the video is SiFu Alex Wallenwein, who is in the Leung Ting, or WT lineage.
Some of the posture is a bit exaggerated, possibly or likely to make a point. Many in that lineage do practice forms / drills with knees heavily bent and the weight sunk and biased to the rear foot. In sparring or even just free practice, the emphasis is less obvious.
As someone from outside WC/WT but a practicioner of another MA, I'm curious on your take since you bring it up- what specifically do you find issue with as far as structure and balance?

Sorry for not responding earlier. It's been a busy week.

It's much easier to explain this sort of thing in person, where you can actually demonstrate and feel what's going on, but I'll do as best I can in print.

His weight is on his heels and his hips are slightly ahead of his shoulders. His body as a whole is making almost a slight "c" curve backwards. Any sort of solid collision will knock him off-balance backwards. When he pivots his weight backwards onto one foot to avoid the collision, he is even more vulnerable to follow up pressure and he has nowhere left to go.

The fact that his hips are ahead of his shoulders means that he can't put any structural support or leg power behind any sort of upper body strike or block. You'll notice that when he demonstrates a stop-hit at around 4:55 in the video he has to switch his balance forward in order to get his shoulder ahead of his hips so that he doesn't get knocked backwards. Realistically it's really, really hard to have the time to do that on a stop hit that has to beat an opponent to the punch.

Finally, his mobility is extremely limited. While weighted on his heels like that he is going to have a hard time moving forward, backwards, or sideways quickly enough to deal with any sort of fast, aggressive opponent.

I do recognize that different arts make different tradeoffs in the engineering of their preferred stances. What is considered a good stance in one style my not be correct in another. Beyond a certain point, though, physics and biomechanics have the final say in what is going to work. Hopefully the problems I pointed out are characteristic just of the individual in the video and not the entire lineage of WT.

If you want context for where I'm coming from, my background is as follows:

5000+ hours BJJ
2000+ hours Muay Thai
1500+ hours Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu
600+ hours Yudansha Fighting Systems (a Danzan ryu spinoff)
400+ hours Judo
400+ hours Boxing
300+ hours SCA heavy weapons fighting
100+ hours Kali, Wrestling (various flavors)
10 - 100 hours each TKD, Bando, Tai Chi, Karate, Sambo
less than 10 hours each Silat, Wing Chun, JKD, Capoeira, Shaolin Do, HEMA

(That's not counting umpteen-zillion hours of watching video of fights and demos for every art under the sun.)

In none of those arts does that sort of stance seem to work out well.

 

[geezer]

...what you really mean by feeling, in the context of your system, is some sort of ting-lik, "listening to energy" skill that is developed through your chi-sau training, isn't it? You do not simply mean the faculty of any normal sentient human being having awareness of physical contact, as that would not require chi-sau training to develop either.

Ting lik... I like that! Thanks for the vocab. lesson, LFJ.

Yeah, unlike you WSL guys (apparently), we try to develop that ting lik (listening energy) as well as yau-lik (springy-energy) in chi-sau. And yes it is a very normal human skill. One that becomes more useful as you approach the clinch range. Even brief instants of contact help you read a person's balance and energy ...good for striking, and good for controlling your opponent's CG.That's why wrestlers train this stuff too. Different drills, similar benefits.

.

What would make your Wing Chun different from any other martial art, since any normal human being also feels when contact is made?

What makes it different? Practice! Other fighting arts have it too, it's just a matter of emphasis. Maybe a misplaced emphasis, from your perspective, but I enjoy the training. Regardless of how much I can really apply in sparring or a possible self-defense scenario, I find it challenging and entertaining like a physical game of chess. Maybe I'm just weird that way.

 

[geezer]

....In none of those arts does that sort of stance seem to work out well.

Tony, I think you may be misjudging the situation. I just watched this again and found it to be a muddled presentation where he jumps back and forth between what you should do, what you shouldn't do, what you should do theoretically, but why that isn't what you actually do, etc. etc. Then on top of that, he makes some technical bobbles that make it even harder to sort out what is supposedly "right" and "wrong".

However, I was able to sort it out easier than most, since I trained in the same system during the same period and held the same rank as that instructor. So basically I already knew what he was trying to say. Otherwise, I'd have probably come to the same negative conclusion as you.

My own opinion is that the WT stance is very light and mobile, and is quite functional. It is also uniquely tailored to work within the overall system. No, it wouldn't work in the context of the other arts you spent significant time in. But WT is a different art completely. A golf swing doesn't work in baseball or tennis. To judge the stance work and steps fairly, you have to see it in context, being applied, not in a somewhat confused and "theoretical" demo like this.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Tony, I think you may be misjudging the situation. I just watched this again and found it to be a muddled presentation where he jumps back and forth between what you should do, what you shouldn't do, what you should do theoretically, but why that isn't what you actually do, etc. etc. Then on top of that, he makes some technical bobbles that make it even harder to sort out what is supposedly "right" and "wrong".

However, I was able to sort it out easier than most, since I trained in the same system during the same period and held the same rank as that instructor. So basically I already knew what he was trying to say. Otherwise, I'd have probably come to the same negative conclusion as you.

My own opinion is that the WT stance is very light and mobile, and is quite functional. It is also uniquely tailored to work within the overall system. No, it wouldn't work in the context of the other arts you spent significant time in. But WT is a different art completely. A golf swing doesn't work in baseball or tennis. To judge the stance work and steps fairly, you have to see it in context, being applied, not in a somewhat confused and "theoretical" demo like this.

I hope that's the case. I was trying to account for when he was demonstrating the "wrong" way vs. the "right" way, but maybe I misinterpreted him. (Or maybe he confused himself at points while switching back and forth.)

Is the WT stance supposed to have the weight back on the heels and the shoulders behind the hips when standing square? The various arts I've trained in have some very different stances, trading off one set of strengths and weaknesses for another depending on their purpose, but I've never encountered one where those characteristics would be workable. I've also never observed a fight (in person or on video) where a stance like that worked out well. (I have seen plenty of WC/WT practitioners who seem to have very solid balance and structure in their stances, but I don't know what lineage they belong to.)

Do you have any video examples that make it more clear how the WT stance is supposed to work in application?

 

[geezer]

I hope that's the case. I was trying to account for when he was demonstrating the "wrong" way vs. the "right" way, but maybe I misinterpreted him. (Or maybe he confused himself at points while switching back and forth.)

Is the WT stance supposed to have the weight back on the heels and the shoulders behind the hips when standing square? The various arts I've trained in have some very different stances, trading off one set of strengths and weaknesses for another depending on their purpose, but I've never encountered one where those characteristics would be workable. I've also never observed a fight (in person or on video) where a stance like that worked out well. (I have seen plenty of WC/WT practitioners who seem to have very solid balance and structure in their stances, but I don't know what lineage they belong to.)

Do you have any video examples that make it more clear how the WT stance is supposed to work in application?

To answer your questions, first a disclaimer: I haven't been a member of the "official" Leung Ting WT group for many many years, so any answers I give are just my take on things. But as I was taught (by LT himself) the WT "Character Two" stance (Yee Gee Kim Yeung Ma) is frontal with the feet and knees adducted (pigeon-toed) with the weight evenly distributed between the balls and the heels of both feet -- i.e. on the center of the foot, NOT on the heels. Furthermore, although trained in forms and drills, YGKM is not a static stance you take when fighting. It is a structure you transition through as you pivot, sidestep or to explode forward to attack or intercept . I believe Alex Wallenwein stated as much somewhere in that clip of his. Moreover, the spine is held vertically and the shoulders are above, not behind the hips. We avoid the dreaded back leaning "Wing Chun slouch" often seen elsewhere.

I'm sorry, I don't have any videos ...of me or my little group at least. Besides, I myself break the WT rules a bit. For me it's a simple cost-benefit situation. In application I sacrifice the groin protection of having both feet exactly on the same centerline for the greater lateral stability acheived by having them separated a little. Similarly, In practice (as compared to forms and drills) I don't weight the rear foot 100%, again sacrificing the theoretical WT advantages of having the front leg unweighted at all times and free to attack and counter, etc. I prefer the more important attribute of greater stability. This is a personal decision, since I have screwed up ankles and I'm a real klutz sometimes. I've known others who can make the "pure" WT stance work very well.

The part I like about WT footwork the best (when done well) is it's explosiveness coming from an unassuming upright stance. Nobody shows this off better than Emin. Check the clip below from about 1:15 to about 2:20. This unexpected explosiveness is an attribute that is very useful, especially in self defense scenarios.

 

[JowGaWolf]

The part I like about WT footwork the best (when done well) is it's explosiveness coming from an unassuming upright stance.

The only that I don't like is the demo guy's stance. His stance makes the technique look more powerful than it actually is in the video. His feet are parallel to each other and his knees are locked out which is why he falls backward like he did. With that said, the concept of using the body weight behind the punch is a sound and proven concept. Boxers use the same concept. That unexpected explosiveness is key to a lot of kung fu styles, in most fights people tend to telegraph the power of their punches by pulling their arm way back, but with this technique the power is hidden because it's not the arm that is generating the majority of the force. Getting hit when you aren't expecting it sucks.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

To answer your questions, first a disclaimer: I haven't been a member of the "official" Leung Ting WT group for many many years, so any answers I give are just my take on things. But as I was taught (by LT himself) the WT "Character Two" stance (Yee Gee Kim Yeung Ma) is frontal with the feet and knees adducted (pigeon-toed) with the weight evenly distributed between the balls and the heels of both feet -- i.e. on the center of the foot, NOT on the heels. Furthermore, although trained in forms and drills, YGKM is not a static stance you take when fighting. It is a structure you transition through as you pivot, sidestep or to explode forward to attack or intercept . I believe Alex Wallenwein stated as much somewhere in that clip of his. Moreover, the spine is held vertically and the shoulders are above, not behind the hips. We avoid the dreaded back leaning "Wing Chun slouch" often seen elsewhere.

I'm sorry, I don't have any videos ...of me or my little group at least. Besides, I myself break the WT rules a bit. For me it's a simple cost-benefit situation. In application I sacrifice the groin protection of having both feet exactly on the same centerline for the greater lateral stability acheived by having them separated a little. Similarly, In practice (as compared to forms and drills) I don't weight the rear foot 100%, again sacrificing the theoretical WT advantages of having the front leg unweighted at all times and free to attack and counter, etc. I prefer the more important attribute of greater stability. This is a personal decision, since I have screwed up ankles and I'm a real klutz sometimes. I've known others who can make the "pure" WT stance work very well.

The part I like about WT footwork the best (when done well) is it's explosiveness coming from an unassuming upright stance. Nobody shows this off better than Emin. Check the clip below from about 1:15 to about 2:20. This unexpected explosiveness is an attribute that is very useful, especially in self defense scenarios.

Thanks for the info. Boztepe does a much better job of demonstrating the stance while still having good structure and balance.

I don't think that particular structure is one I would personally feel very comfortable using, but I'd love the chance to work with someone who is good at it, just to get a better feel for how it works.

 

[geezer]

Well, if you did use a stance similar to this, nobody says you always have to stay in it. Your grappling experience in BJJ, judo, etc. would allow you to recognize and anticipate when your opponent was setting you up for a shoot or throw in time to change your stance into a more secure position. Purists may differ, but I believe that when the threat changes, it's best to change accordingly. Or, to put it another way, screw tradition and do what works!

In my own limited background I find myself variously using body mechanics from Latosa Escrima (which is much like boxing), to WT (as we were discussing), to a bit of folkstyle wrestling which I learned as a kid. My DTE buddies (like Jake on this forum) help me find the conceptual unity behind what some would see as disparate, even contradictory systems.

 

[Phobius]

The interpretation of that stance for me, as was explained to me by my sifu, is that it is a training stance to understand proper power and tension. Building up explosiveness in the legs and so on.

We have had it explained both why the stance itself does not work but why it is effective way to start learning movement and not only footwork. In other words it is a training tool.

Far to static in my view to be used in fighting scenario but you can at least react quickly if caught offguard in a standing position. For self defense it is normally not a good idea to prepare your stance as if a boxer since the moment you do, you are sending out an invitation to fight to your aggressor.

Another beautiful aspect of that stance, it allows you in the first form to train all your techniques evenly on both sides without a thought on footwork. Keeping tension in your knees, I am repeating myself sorry, gives you a spring force like feeling of moving into an offensive or defensive position. Body weight being either on front or rear leg. (Please do not mistake this from collapsing knees in that stance as it would just damage you)

Also I train WT as well.

 

[futsaowingchun]

From what I see in the op's presentation his body structure doesn't support the waist movement leading to a one-sided body presentation with his COG very open for challenge from anyone able to maintain a Deui Ying structure. He attempts to cover this flaw by taking the elbow with his strong side but that's just masking the incompatibility in his stance and waist movement with a technique.

I don't know anything about Jow Ga, are you guys more run and gun like kickboxing or karate? I could see this type of body tactic working better in that framework.



I've been training Tai Chi and other Wudang arts for more than a few years now and while yes they use the waist, they don't use it in the frame you are presenting. Just because something works under one art's engine/framework doesn't mean it fits under another... Or else you're stating the logical equivalent of "a fuel pump that works in a Smart Car would work just as well in a Nissan Titan because they both use fuel pumps."

Tai Chi uses small medium and large frame depending on the style or lineage. turning the waist is turing the waist whether small medium or large frame.

 

[LFJ]

Ting lik... I like that! Thanks for the vocab. lesson, LFJ.

Oh crap... Don't run off with it just yet! I think I wasn't using my brain. Ting-lik (听力) is a word in everyday speech that means hearing (ability) or listening comprehension. The term I was looking for was ting-ging (听劲) (listening to energy / force), which is a concept also found in Taijiquan push hands referring to "sensitivity" to the opponent's force, although in Mandarin (ting jin). Obviously I'm not used to using that term.

Anyhow, another issue I have with this concept within Wing Chun is that we're a striking system, but when people defend the usefulness of sensitivity in fighting, they often bring up the clinch or other grappling situations to show where they'll use it. If you spend so much time training and attach so much importance to developing a skill that is going to be used in standing grappling, then it sounds like you're more of a grappling system that incorporates striking, or grappling with intent to strike. At least the system I train is not that.