Sharing with other Arts

[Kempogeek]

I respect your views MichiganTKD although I don't agree. Like Tae Kwon Do, in Kosho Ryu Kempo we train quite a bit on keeping people away by blocks, kicks and even some escaping skills. When I started, I don't believe the instuctor put that idea of keeping to ourselves. In fact I believe my instuctor does some side training in aikido. I wouldn't mind metting with people from other styles. I believe every style has alot to contribute and can learn from. Just my 2 cents. Best regards, Steve

 

[Adept]

MichiganTKD - I am nonplussed. The nature of TKD does not influence the personality of its students in such a way. If it did, all Traditional TKD students would avoid human contact whenever possible, and live reclusive lives. This is simply not the case.

I understand why you would not wish to 'pollute' your TKD syllabus. But why is it wrong, in your opinion, for others to train in other styles (where the knowledge of their TKD training is in the open, as a TKD instructor)?

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Moderator:

Is there a specific behavior you are reacting to or it there some tenor to the conversation or ????. There are plainly strong views on both sides of the discussion but I don't think I am hearing anything that too out of line. Am I missing something? Even if its just that the comments are becoming a little to direct, its OK to be a little be more specific if you think things are getting out of hand. Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Michigan:

I am still in agreement with you but still from a slightly different point of view. I don't see a pollution of the art as much as a risk of pollution of the process that the art facilitates. People who practice only for the physical expression of the art will not get this concept. In that case practicing a martial activity will only be just so much phys Ed to them. Oddly, there are more than a few great names in sports who routinely touted their sport as "building athletes" or "building Character" or one can look at the Military that often speaks to "making men". This Character development is the process of which I speak and is of much greater importance in my view than simply protecting a particular curriculum. After 1400 years of being overrun by a spectrum of enemies the Korean had a very clear view of the role of the martial mentaility on their culture which is to say that they viewed it as an unfortunate but necessary evil (so to speak). To this day the approach to developing a martial spirit is still to mute the importance of the military roles in common Korean culture, but it is still there. If we are to pursue the Korean ethos I suggest that we get used to the idea of being the same necessary evil in American life and do what necessary to protect the integrity of the process. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[shesulsa]

Dear Moderator:

Is there a specific behavior you are reacting to or it there some tenor to the conversation or ????. There are plainly strong views on both sides of the discussion but I don't think I am hearing anything that too out of line. Am I missing something? Even if its just that the comments are becoming a little to direct, its OK to be a little be more specific if you think things are getting out of hand. Thoughts?

Bruce et al;

Any kind of name-calling or insult or flame against another member on this board is against the rules. No matter how strong one's opinion or stance on any issue is, there is simply no need to stoop to this level in order to prove the intelligent person's point. Gender-based analyses are also irrelevant to the discussion and not necessary to make one's point. You are all intelligent men. Let's discuss things in an intelligent way - no name calling, insults or inappropriate connotations. And if you have problems with this, please feel free to take it up with a senior or super moderator.

 

[Zepp]

...I stated that I do not regularly associate with other stylists, go to "open to all styles" events, belong to all styles "Soke Organizations", regularly go to other gyms, or belong to organizations outside my chosen style.

Michigan, I think most people here would agree with your opinion on "soke organizations," and I don't think anyone here is arguing that it's okay to accept rank from MA organizations that don't have anything to with your own art. But that seems to be a different topic than the one you originally raised.

One more question for you: why exactly do you think that a TKD school participating in an open tournament or a multi-style event is a bad thing?

 

[MichiganTKD]

Zepp,

I am opposed to Tae Kwon Do students attending open-style tournaments for several reasons.

First, open-style tournaments are designed to make more money for the tournament promoter, despite what the flyers may say. Look at it this way: A karate tournament will make so much money for the promoter. But a karate-tae kwon Do-kung fu-MMA tournament will make a lot more money because many more participants can be invited.

Second, whose rules are followed? If you have a tournament with many different styles, each style has its own rules regarding what is allowed. If a karate student fights a Tae Kwon Do student, whose rules are followed? WTF? ITF? Point fighting? Karate rules?

Thirdly, a Karate tournament promoter would most likely be unfamiliar with the background, history, culture, and ways of Tae Kwon Do, and vice versa. A Tae Kwon Do tournament is also a celebration of Tae Kwon Do as a whole. In open tournaments, much of this celebration is left out because of the various backgrounds of the competitors. Then it just becomes a fighting competition.

Fourthly, open tournaments tend to degenerate into "I'm flashier than you" competitions. Competitors try to outdo each other with flashier uniforms, fancier weapons (if there is a weapons division), made up forms with acrobatics added that have no relation to self defense or history, and no emphasis on etiquette and manners.

I don't care whether it is Ed Parker, S. Henry Cho, or the United States Open Nationals. The above could apply to any one of them. Would I attend as a spectator? Possibly, out of curiosity. Would I attend to compete or recommend people to compete? Nope.

 

[MichiganTKD]

Gretchen,

Speaking in their defense, I do think you are being a bit unreasonable. I don't believe anybody resorted to name calling or flaming. And as for gender references, I tried to use a gender reference that I hoped would help convey my attitude without being offensive. I hope I was not being offensive, for it was not my plan to be.
We are reasonable men. The posts I have read from Bruce in various threads convey the sentiments of someone who is entirely reasonable. I personally have tried very hard to convey my thoughts in a civilized, reasonable manner. Whether people agree with them is another matter. Some do, some don't. Believe me, I've seen attacks far worse than these in other MT threads.

 

[terryl965]

Michagan TKD if I may what tournament do you and your student attend, where you at State, USTU Junior Olympic or maybe Nationals both Junior And Seniors. Not trying to be rude or anything but I've done alot of open with apre set of rules for sparring and enjoyed myself.
Thanks Your Friend in arms
Terry L. Stoker

 

[MichiganTKD]

Terry,

Our organization is actually not affiliated with the USTU, much of it for political reasons. When we do attend tournaments, they are usually organized and led by colleagues of our Grandmaster Tae Zee Park. They are held according to WTF rules, but are not officially USTU or WTF sanctioned.They are normally private tournaments with color belt/Dan forms and free fighting divisions only. These tournaments have taken us around the country, as well as to Vietnam, Peru, Spain, and a few other countries whose names escape me.

 

[terryl965]

Thank you Michagan TKD for clearing that up for me.

Have a wonderful evening

Terry artyon:

 

[arnisandyz]

Here is an interesting question:

Do you think it is proper for an Instructor in, say, Tae Kwon Do, to share his Art with Instructors of other styles and hang out with them?

Would you consider the above quote a form of prejudice? Your say I am ______(fill in the blank) and you are not, therefore I am not going to be associated with you.

Here is question for you...Do you think it is "proper" for an Asian instructor who has an art handed down to him through family to teach non-Asians or even hang out with them? In some cultures it would not be proper, however, the US would have not learned Eastern Martial Arts if this had not happened. I only bring this up to state a point (don't mean for it to get "racial" moderators). The point being to set aside your prejudices whether it be racial, political, social or stylistic.

 

[glad2bhere]

"....Would you consider the above quote a form of prejudice?..."

Does it need to be "prejudice"? Might it not just be "discretion" or perhaps even a sense of being protective of what one does? I have trained in MA for a tad over 30 years now and the last 20 or so in Hapkido. I take what I do pretty seriously, though I will go halfway across the country on my own dime to give information to people who are seriously interested in learning. On the other hand I routinely turn-away kids who come to me with 2nd and 3rd TKD dans because they want to see what Hapkido is "like" or they have some sense of being entitled to be taught by me because they are willing to give me dollars. Always comes as a shock to them that their money carries no currency (pun intended) with me.

Do I need to go places to learn from others? No, not really. My art has more than enough material to keep me busy in this life and well into the next. But I also don't sit around on my bum waiting for someone to spoon-feed me the next dose of insight. Hapkido has plenty of room for growth all by itself. What I seem to be hearing other people suggest is that whatever they are involved in has lost its novelty, is somehow lacking, or perhaps is even too chalenging to deal with. The result is a need to just hang-out in less structured activities so as to do some MA-like things without having being held to accountable for accomplishing actual Growth. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[hardheadjarhead]

MichiganTKD's comments in bold:

I am opposed to Tae Kwon Do students attending open-style tournaments for several reasons.

First, open-style tournaments are designed to make more money for the tournament promoter, despite what the flyers may say. Look at it this way: A karate tournament will make so much money for the promoter. But a karate-tae kwon Do-kung fu-MMA tournament will make a lot more money because many more participants can be invited.

The assumption here, if I read this correctly, is that Tae Kwon Do promoters are above any avaricious intent, and don't host tournaments for the purposes of profit. This is patently false. I know a Korean-once a state director for the USTU-who was in it for only that purpose. The man was (and is) noted for his profit driven motives and will openly teach ways of cheating a student out of several months of tuition via bank drafts.

Is this a tu quoque argument? Hardly. I list it to point out the error in your reasoning. Open karate tournament directors haven't cornered the market in corruption when it comes to sponsoring an event. I know open tournament directors who make a fair profit and run a fair event, and I know Koreans who host biased competitions and are in it for the cash. It goes both ways.

Second, whose rules are followed? If you have a tournament with many different styles, each style has its own rules regarding what is allowed. If a karate student fights a Tae Kwon Do student, whose rules are followed? WTF? ITF? Point fighting? Karate rules?

You fight the rules of the tournament. If a TKD fighter can't handle the hand strikes of a karate man, or the karate man can't handle the kicks of the TKD stylist, or neither can handle the boxing skills of a Muay Thai fighter, I'd say that leads to reflection and illumination. Or, perhaps, to a "sour grapes" attitude with rationalization for having received a beating.

Thirdly, a Karate tournament promoter would most likely be unfamiliar with the background, history, culture, and ways of Tae Kwon Do, and vice versa. A Tae Kwon Do tournament is also a celebration of Tae Kwon Do as a whole. In open tournaments, much of this celebration is left out because of the various backgrounds of the competitors. Then it just becomes a fighting competition.

No kidding it becomes a fighting competition.

The paragraph above is a rather sad rationalization for not stepping out of your house. Again, the term is xenophobia.

You have plenty of tournaments in which to "celebrate" Tae Kwon Do culture.

Fourthly, open tournaments tend to degenerate into "I'm flashier than you" competitions. Competitors try to outdo each other with flashier uniforms, fancier weapons (if there is a weapons division), made up forms with acrobatics added that have no relation to self defense or history, and no emphasis on etiquette and manners.

The flash and star spangled forms are an event you don't have to participate in. Merely fight, and see in what areas you're found wanting.

I don't care whether it is Ed Parker, S. Henry Cho, or the United States Open Nationals. The above could apply to any one of them. Would I attend as a spectator? Possibly, out of curiosity. Would I attend to compete or recommend people to compete? Nope.

Well, we wouldn't want that moment of reflection and illumination now, would we? Or would it be sour grapes?


Regards,


Steve

 

[MichiganTKD]

I realize full well that Tae Kwon Do is no stranger to tournaments organized for monetary gain. One of the reasons why our Grandmaster did not recommend tournaments to us for many years. Too much Instructor politics and shady financial dealings. He waited until he had Instructors of his own in his organization who could judge and referee properly and then began to give them the responsibility of organizing the tournaments, telling them what he wanted and how they were to be organized (WTF rules, safety first, color belt forms/sparring/one step, black belt forms/sparring). Much like the ATA, it is an organization tournament supervised and run within our organization. We know what the rules will be, and (overall) what to expect. Unlike open tournaments, with their "anything goes" mentality.
We don't have karate students or MMA students at our tournament, or the tournaments we go to for the same reason there are no such students at the World TKD Championships-it is a Tae Kwon Do tournament, celebrating TKD culture and using its rules. If someone else wants to go to a MMA tournament and risk getting injured, have at it.
One of the nice things about having a tournament organized along these lines: You know what to expect and what the rules are. There are no satin or star-spangled uniforms, no one doing a form they made up to impress the judges, no forms with flips and somersaults, and no matches with karate students fighting Tae Kwon Do students. Everyone goes home happy and in one piece.

Bruce is absolutely correct. Tae Kwon Do or Hapkido have enough in them to keep me busy and occupied for at least one lifetime. Aside from curiosity, there really is no reason for me to continually share with other styles.

 

[Miles]

Dear Michigan:

I am still in agreement with you but still from a slightly different point of view. I don't see a pollution of the art as much as a risk of pollution of the process that the art facilitates. .......This Character development is the process of which I speak and is of much greater importance in my view than simply protecting a particular curriculum. ........To this day the approach to developing a martial spirit is still to mute the importance of the military roles in common Korean culture, but it is still there. If we are to pursue the Korean ethos I suggest that we get used to the idea of being the same necessary evil in American life and do what necessary to protect the integrity of the process. FWIW.

Very interesting post Bruce!

Please explain how the process of character development is polluted by sharing with other instructors. (I am assuming the instructors share an equal desire to develop martial spirit, at least that is one of my goals as well as that of my friend who is learning TKD and teaching me Kali.)

Miles

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Miles:

If I decided to get "Biblical" about this, my response would come down to that bit from the New Testament about how "no man can serve two masters". But let me try something a little more concrete.

Lets say you decide to join the Marine Corp here in the States. Off to Paris Island you go for Boot Camp. Say about the Xth week you get your weapon and the DI gives you the skinny on your weapon according to the Corps. But then your bunk buddy, who has previous duty in the Army starts to fill you in on what the "REAL" story is about your weapon, some of which matches the DI and some of which does not. Now we have a mental conflict-- follow the DI and his theory, or your bunk buddy and his life experience. The issue is not whose right or wrong --- the DI or your buddy. The ISSUE is that YOU now have a conflict which will reduce your efficiency and effectiveness as a team player. Fact is that you didn't come to Paris Island to become a Marine. You were sent to Paris Island to learn how to subject your priorities to those of the organization. In the end the label you earn for doing this is "Marine".

Lets shift this to Martial arts. You join a martial art with an eye towards becoming a Black Belt in a selected art. As you go through the training you are constantly distracted by people who think differently, who tout an "easier way", or a "better" way. Now you are conflicted and you will remain conflicted until you resolve that conflict, and until that happens you will be compromised as a practitioner. The fact is that you didn't join a MA to become a BB. You joined to learn how to be a better person and a true servant of your culture. In the end, if you succeed, you earn a Black Belt--- which mean in this case you are just getting warmed-up for the rest of your life. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Shu2jack]

Dear Miles:

If I decided to get "Biblical" about this, my response would come down to that bit from the New Testament about how "no man can serve two masters". But let me try something a little more concrete.

Lets say you decide to join the Marine Corp here in the States. Off to Paris Island you go for Boot Camp. Say about the Xth week you get your weapon and the DI gives you the skinny on your weapon according to the Corps. But then your bunk buddy, who has previous duty in the Army starts to fill you in on what the "REAL" story is about your weapon, some of which matches the DI and some of which does not. Now we have a mental conflict-- follow the DI and his theory, or your bunk buddy and his life experience. The issue is not whose right or wrong --- the DI or your buddy. The ISSUE is that YOU now have a conflict which will reduce your efficiency and effectiveness as a team player. Fact is that you didn't come to Paris Island to become a Marine. You were sent to Paris Island to learn how to subject your priorities to those of the organization. In the end the label you earn for doing this is "Marine".

Lets shift this to Martial arts. You join a martial art with an eye towards becoming a Black Belt in a selected art. As you go through the training you are constantly distracted by people who think differently, who tout an "easier way", or a "better" way. Now you are conflicted and you will remain conflicted until you resolve that conflict, and until that happens you will be compromised as a practitioner. The fact is that you didn't join a MA to become a BB. You joined to learn how to be a better person and a true servant of your culture. In the end, if you succeed, you earn a Black Belt--- which mean in this case you are just getting warmed-up for the rest of your life. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

I do agree with that to an extent. I believe that color belts should stick just with what they are doing in their art, their organization, and their school. This is so a student can gain a solid foundation.

Once you earn your black belt, I think it would be acceptable to train with different people, compete in different types of events, and maybe talk to other instructors about theory and application. I don't think it is diluteing anything, but looking at a different perspective. In your example with the military. Both the DI and bunk-mate could be correct, but different personal experiences lead to different views and ideas. After that marine has gained his own expereince he can take what the DI says and what his bunk-mate says, use his own real-world experience, and determine what is best.

After all, each art teaches a person how to be a better person by different methods. They also view things differently. I think part of learning to be a better person is to know how other people are "raised" and "trained" in order to know where they are coming from, how to interact with them, and how to get along. By sticking with just my art I limit my understanding of others and what it is to be a good person. This could be said of character-building, technique, knowledge, theory, etc.

It is like growing up. As a child you get all these mixed messages and different thoughts. You need a parent to give you a set, solid, healthy way of doing things and thinking. As a teenager or "young adult" you hear all these crazy ideas and points of views. You compare these to what you have been taught as a child and think for yourself. Once you become an adult and gain real world expereince you begin to see how things are in the world and take what works for you.

 

[MichiganTKD]

Bruce,
Excellent analogy. Each martial art has their own way of doing things, their own culture, philosophy etc. Again, I don't really have a problem with one time comparing styles with someone else out curiosity. However, if you frequently share with a karate student, or a MMA student, inevitably it will lead to questions of "why do you do it like that? Why do you kick like that? Why do you believe that?" Sometimes the questions are innocent-merely curiosity toward a different culture. However, if you share often enough with other styles, inevitably questions about why you do the things you do will surface, and doubts will be planted about how and why you practice. Trust me, when was the last time you heard a karate student say "Wow! Tae Kwon Do is just as good as karate. Maybe I should practice that instead!" Doesn't happen.

One of the basic tenets of the teacher-student relationship is trust. As the Instructor, it is my obligation to teach you the right way, and your obligation to trust me to do so. If you contantly compare with other styles and question each other, eventually doubts will build up in our relationship because other students-who do not share your experience-will question why you do what you do and its effectiveness. As an Instructor, I simply cannot teach someone who continually questions me, for there is no trust.

Let's be honest. Every stylist believes their art is the most effective and the best. It is part of being proud of what you practice. The MMA think traditional styles don't work; jeet kune do people think JKD is the ultimate style because of the Bruce Lee mystique; Tae Kwon Do students think their style is the most effective etc. Nothing wrong with being proud of what you practice. However, if you frequently practice and associate with other students who think their style is the best, they will inevitably question what and why you do what you do. Maybe out of curiosity, maybe because in their mind they don't think your art is effective. What will happen is the instructor-student relationship is now undermined because some guy who doesn't even practice the same style constantly questions how effective my art is.

And please spare me the "all arts are one" bull. All arts are not one. Each art is different and separate, with its own background, history, philosophy, and etiquette. I would no more expect a karate student to want to frequently share with me than I would want to share with a karate or Hapkido student. They go their way, I go mine.

 

[Miles]

Nothing wrong with being proud of what you practice. However, if you frequently practice and associate with other students who think their style is the best, they will inevitably question what and why you do what you do. Maybe out of curiosity, maybe because in their mind they don't think your art is effective. ......And please spare me the "all arts are one" bull. All arts are not one. Each art is different and separate, with its own background, history, philosophy, and etiquette. I would no more expect a karate student to want to frequently share with me than I would want to share with a karate or Hapkido student. They go their way, I go mine.

Lets shift this to Martial arts. You join a martial art with an eye towards becoming a Black Belt in a selected art. As you go through the training you are constantly distracted by people who think differently, who tout an "easier way", or a "better" way. Now you are conflicted and you will remain conflicted until you resolve that conflict, and until that happens you will be compromised as a practitioner. The fact is that you didn't join a MA to become a BB. You joined to learn how to be a better person and a true servant of your culture. In the end, if you succeed, you earn a Black Belt--- which mean in this case you are just getting warmed-up for the rest of your life. FWIW.

Thank you both for your insights. Bruce, what about black belts or instructor-level people simply training with each other? I totally agree with your inference that there may be distractions to those who may not have matured within a given art. But if one is an instructor, the assumption will be that he/she has learned to be a better person, and therefore may not be so stylistically-prejudiced to presume his/her art is better...just different.

MichiganTKD, I agree each art is different-has it's own background, history, etiquette, as you stated. I say, "viva la difference."

Perhaps not as good as your analogy Bruce, but when I was a high school student I studied the French language. In doing so, I learned more about the structure of the English language. My son is a senior in high school. He studied Latin-I know it has benefited him as well.

I am not advocating formal mixing of the arts per se-I agree "all arts are not one" as MichiganTKD mentioned. Just sharing....

Miles