Sharing with other Arts

[DuneViking]

There was this one time, at a martial arts seminar some people from my club attended, and the sponsoring instructor was very well respected and a highly accomplished martial artist. It was said that he did not even have hash marks on his belt to indicate his rank, he was that modest. He is still well known, and he shared all kinds of useful information. Like that artist, others in our club draw upon any applicable source to advance their understanding, which is practicle because our emphasis is on building character and developing self defense skills, rather than competition. We also recognise the enjoyment that many have for tournament competition and are glad to help them, but in doing so we emphasize the difference twixt self defense and the sport.

Our GrandMaster, president and founder recently shared a story, about how he entered a tournament in forms and won first, and a youngster who worked very hard took 4th, but they only had trophies for the first 3 places. He took his trophy and asked the second place man and third place man and they swapped them so that the 2nd place took home a 1st place, the 3rd took home a 2nd place and the 4th place kid got a 3rd place trophy with my instructor being happy to just have had the opportunity to compete as he was not interested in the trophy. He got one anyway, for a long time afterward, at every tournament that 4th placed kid went to, he pointed out the man who gave up his trophy so he could have one, saying to his friends, "there, that's the guy who gave up his trophy." That is the reason I am in martial arts, that is the best demonstration of what TDK is, building character by example and sharing.

Remember the seminar I wrote about above? Well my instructor had taken students there to learn and was even aquainted with the sponsor of the seminar. Later in the evening after the first or second day of the seminar, that sponsor, an 8th Dän at least at that time, stopped by their rooms and asked " Hey, can I hang out with you guys? " Another demonstration of TKD. While I am proud to study with my instructor I will respect his privacy and say only that the sponsor of that seminar was also someone of great character, he is called Bill Wallace. Share with other martial artists? You bet. As our master says: if it works on me, its TDK the next day.

 

[MichiganTKD]

Bill Wallace is a kickboxer, not a traditional martial artist. In other words, an athlete. Therefore, he is not guided by the same manners, etiquette, philosophy etc. that traditional martial artists use. I'm sure he's a nice guy. There are lots of nice guys out there.

Anyway, what would we talk about? Sparring? He is a point fighter and I use WTF rules. Forms? I doubt he does the same forms as me, if he even does forms. He is a kickboxer, remember. Kickboxers tend not to practice basics, forms, or one-step. They are athletes. They do drills, conditioning, exercises. His horrible acting? I'm sure he'd want to talk about the bad films he's been in.

But hey, if associating with Bill Wallace brightens your day, have at it.

 

[hardheadjarhead]

Bill Wallace is a kickboxer, not a traditional martial artist. In other words, an athlete. Therefore, he is not guided by the same manners, etiquette, philosophy etc. that traditional martial artists use.


From what I recall, Bill Wallace received training in Shorei-Goju under Glen Keeney, in Anderson, Indiana. He studied (allegedly) Tae Kwon Do under Jong Woo Kim in Muncie, Indiana in the very early seventies. I say allegedly because Kim claimed it openly when my sister studied with him. Wallace also studied classical Judo for a time, I believe...but I may be wrong.

As for his standards of etiquette, I don't know.

As for manners, etiquette and philosophy, etc of traditional martial arts, please post right now that these below (a very partial list) are not traditional martial arts, or if they are, list those standards of etiquette and philosophy that are in accordance with yours:

Pencak Silat Mande Muda
Krabi Krabong
Muay Thai
Bersilat
Bando
Hsing I.
Dos Pares escrima
Pekiti Tirsia
Kyokushin
Savate
Hop Gar
La Coste kali
Kenpo
Serrada escrima

Now, you may classify them as mere athletes, or ring fighters, or what have you...but please, lets see you do that right now.

Tell the practitioners of these systems here on this board that they're not practicing a martial art...or that these arts are somehow diminished in comparison to your brand of TKD because they don't follow your Hanophilic standards of obsequiousness and thus are not "traditional."

And if they meet your standards, tell us again why you have nothing in common with them and refuse to interact with them.

I find it odd that you can pontificate on the merits of your system of etiquette here on MT; then go about abusing junior ranks as you have in the past by minimizing their worth; then go about snidely swiping at other martial artists whose accomplishments are substantial; and then manage to ignore the systems of at least a dozen other nations other than your beloved "Land of the Morning Calm" because they don't meet your standards of interpersonal conduct.



Regards,


Steve

 

[Raewyn]

Are the different kinds of Martial Arts not allowed to evolve??? Do they have to stay traditional out of respect to the grandmasters??
Is MMA not a Martial Art because the training incorporates and teaches all kinds of MA???

These are just genuine questions I dont know the answers to.

 

[glad2bhere]

You know, I honestly don't know why this has to keep going round and round.
Are people being purposely obtuse or do folks reading this post honestly not understand? I could use an honest answer here because, frankly, it seems like people are going out of their way NOT to understand----- and to me that begins to smack of just plain messing with folks for the sheer joy of messing with them. Maybe its just me but this is pretty cut and dried.

I understand that folks want to work out together. Thats OK in my book.

I understand that maybe one of the outcomes of working out is that people may adopt some new practice. Thats OK, too.

I understand someone may even want to turn around and show/teach these new things to others. Still no problem.

The only place that a problem comes in is when the "New" thing is represented as being the same as the "Old" thing. Now, we have a problem. Not so much that I have an issue with Evolution. Thats going to happen. What I have a problem with is people representing what they do as one thing and actually promoting something else. We started talking about sharing and as I say thats fine. People want to turn Hapkido into a sport and THATS fine. But don't come back after a sharing event, or a sporting event and say you are doing "Hapkido". Hapkido arts are not sports. Use another name, 'cuz the term "Hapkido" is already taken. What part of this don't folks understand?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[MichiganTKD]

Steve,

Nowhere have I ever said or implied that Tae Kwon Do or the Korean Way is the best. I favor TKD because I practice it. The same way a kenpo or karate stylist would favor their art. I have just as much respect for a traditional Japanese or Chinese stylist as I would for a Tae Kwon Do Instructor

I don't associate with Bill Wallace for the following reason: he is/was a point fighter/kickboxer, and I am a traditional Tae Kwon Do student. I'm not saying he's not a nice guy or that what he did was easy. But the fact is this: what Bill Wallace does-lead seminars on point sparring and how to prepare for it-is the equivalent of a coach. A coach's job is to take your technique and build it up to enable you to win matches and competitions. He happens to coach point sparring, something I don't do and am not interested in.

It's nothing personal against him. We just have nothing in common. He doesn't teach anything that I relate to. He doesn't instruct in good martial art basics, how to make power, forms, etiquette/manners, or history/culture. I'm sure he's good at what he does. But he exists in a different world than me and the people I associate with.

Again, if you practice kickboxing or point fighting and think training with him would benefit you, have at it. But, to quote Yogi Berra, include me out.

 

[DuneViking]

Steve,

Nowhere have I ever said or implied that Tae Kwon Do or the Korean Way is the best. I favor TKD because I practice it. The same way a kenpo or karate stylist would favor their art. I have just as much respect for a traditional Japanese or Chinese stylist as I would for a Tae Kwon Do Instructor

I don't associate with Bill Wallace for the following reason: he is/was a point fighter/kickboxer, and I am a traditional Tae Kwon Do student. I'm not saying he's not a nice guy or that what he did was easy. But the fact is this: what Bill Wallace does-lead seminars on point sparring and how to prepare for it-is the equivalent of a coach. A coach's job is to take your technique and build it up to enable you to win matches and competitions. He happens to coach point sparring, something I don't do and am not interested in.

It's nothing personal against him. We just have nothing in common. He doesn't teach anything that I relate to. He doesn't instruct in good martial art basics, how to make power, forms, etiquette/manners, or history/culture. I'm sure he's good at what he does. But he exists in a different world than me and the people I associate with.

Again, if you practice kickboxing or point fighting and think training with him would benefit you, have at it. But, to quote Yogi Berra, include me out.

My apologies. I was not very good at making my point I guess. I think it is good to share with others and it is up to me to get something out of it, to collect my golden nugget of knowledge, so to speak.

The last time I saw Bill Wallace fight, it was a 3 second fight. He won by knockout, not on points. But again, I digress. The point I was making is that he shared on both an instructional level and a personal level. Our whole training emphasis is on 1-real world self defense and 2-building character-making yourself the best person you can be, and sharing can help there too. This is not meant to be a persuasive argument, but a simple explination of my opinion on the subject of the thread. :viking3:

 

[Marginal]

I don't associate with Bill Wallace for the following reason: he is/was a point fighter/kickboxer, and I am a traditional Tae Kwon Do student.

The same could be said of Chuck Norris.

 

[MichiganTKD]

Personally, I never really thought much of Chuck Norris. I'll admit, I used to watch his movies when I was 15, but I also used to love the Sho Kosugi Ninja films, so that doesn't mean much.
But yeah, the same could be said for Chick Norris. We occupy two different worlds. Not saying he's not a nice guy, but he doesn't teach anything I'm interested in learning, unless you count "Getting Your Face on the Cover of Black Belt Magazine 101". He's really good at that.
You know, I'm not even really sure what stylist I'd consider him. Is he a Tang Soo Do Instructor? Karate? Kung Fu? He's made it a practice to associate with so many different Instructors I'm not sure exactly what it is he teaches.
And don't give me a line about "well when he came back to America he practiced with different stylists out of necessity." Lots of Instructors, mine included, came to this country and stayed true to what they practiced. They didn't practice with 50 different stylists "out of necessity". They practiced what they were familiar with.

 

[DuneViking]

Once again it seems we are getting bogged down in semantics. While the minuteia (sp?) of tiny label differences can be interesting and make understanding easier over the internet, I feel that in this case it is counter-productive.

The discussion at hand is with regard to the positive and negative elements of an experienced martial artist* openly associating with martial artists of a different style.

While I understand that this is not something everyone would want to do (some people are happy learning from only one syllabus) I do not understand how it can be viewed as something that is bad for other people to do.

* - Call it combat sport, martial science, boxing, whatever label seems best to you.

Bullseye!
And where did these arts [and sciences] come from, hmmmm?
Obviously some one thought of them, thru observation or speculative contemplation, or probably both, and to share with others is to continue that experience. Remember Ayn Rand's Anthem, should we not develop the light bulb because it would threaten the department of candles ?

 

[DuneViking]

Actually, you youngin's might not remember, and I am sure I'll go senile too, but FYI, both Bill Wallace and Chuck Norris were superb full contact champion martial art fighters. I learned those names watching the sporting events and reading the early print media for that information- I learned those names before they were ever in any movies. That is how they got into movies etc.

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear DuneViking:

Personally I LIKE candles. Some people might find them messy and bothersome, but I DO like them. I have nothing against people using light bulbs. I even can accept light bulbs that are shaped like candles and have those wiggly filaments inside. Just don't hand me a lightbulb and tell me its a "candle." What is more I would shudder to think that someone would take a bulb and put a load of wax and a wick in it and represent that as an improvement over both the candle AND the lightbulb because it used features from both. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[DuneViking]

Dear DuneViking:

Personally I LIKE candles. Some people might find them messy and bothersome, but I DO like them. I have nothing against people using light bulbs. I even can accept light bulbs that are shaped like candles and have those wiggly filaments inside. Just don't hand me a lightbulb and tell me its a "candle." What is more I would shudder to think that someone would take a bulb and put a load of wax and a wick in it and represent that as an improvement over both the candle AND the lightbulb because it used features from both. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

LMAOROTG !!

Waa Hooo! Excellent explination! Your discourse is short sweet and to the point, in a word, eloquent! Understanding is the key to using any techniques. If you do not understand how to apply something how can it help? Some movements in some forms do not have an obvious use, but after some contemplation and experimantation one may come to understand. To do something ritualistically makes no sense if one cannot apply the information. The same with incorporating 'wax' in 'lightbulbs' as you described. I might take a little bit of wax and rub it round the first thread of the bulb to help it fit in a stick socket. That is useful. Too much might be dangerous. Thus, one must take what works and dump the rest and use it in accordance with their goals.:viking3: :viking3:

 

[terryl965]

Sharing is fine with me. Telling me my Art is no good is another thing I've been in the Arts for 43 years and nowhere has my art is better than your has appeared as much has it has in the last 15 years. Everybody have found a new way or a lost secret or the holy grail of training techniques. A roundhouse is a roundhouse the only difference is who gets the kick to land first. Sorry off topic, I'll shut up now.

 

[DuneViking]

Sharing is fine with me. Telling me my Art is no good is another thing I've been in the Arts for 43 years and nowhere has my art is better than your has appeared as much has it has in the last 15 years. Everybody have found a new way or a lost secret or the holy grail of training techniques. A roundhouse is a roundhouse the only difference is who gets the kick to land first. Sorry off topic, I'll shut up now.

No need to stifle, that competative 'My school vs your school' stuff, well, bites!!

 

[MichiganTKD]

I think the "my art is better than your art" and "traditional martial arts are useless" attitude has directly paralleled the rise of UFC, Pride, and K-1. These guys make it a point to pick and choose techniques from many different styles, not realizing how superficial the end result is. While I personally prefer traditional Tae Kwon Do because it works for me, it seems to be the aforementioned students who have carried disrespect for other styles to new heights.
But then, they are following in the steps of their spiritual godfather, Bruce Lee.

 

[Adept]

These guys make it a point to pick and choose techniques from many different styles, not realizing how superficial the end result is.

How do you mean superficial?

it seems to be the aforementioned students who have carried disrespect for other styles to new heights.

There is a difference between disrespect and simply being rude. Even if I think what someone is teaching me is bollocks, or if I think a certain style or attitude is not as beneficial as something else, I would not voice those opinions because it would be rude.

To whit, I do not respect all arts or organisations equally, but I do not make a point of openly insulting people involved with those arts or styles.

Please be aware I am not trying to imply that you are trying to insult me or anyone else, I'm just pointing out that it is possible to have no respect for something without being rude about it.

Having said all that, I dont tend to see MMA practitioners insulting other artists more, or less, than their traditional counterparts.

But then, they are following in the steps of their spiritual godfather, Bruce Lee.

To a certain degree. The underlying principle of take what works and discard what does not seems very near to perfect, as far as I'm concerned. It is open enough to allow for personal interpretation (what works for me as opposed to what works for someone else) and yet rigid enough to make you the best you can be. A particular move not working for you? Dont bother with it. Being taught something ineffective? Discard it.

I would not call Bruce Lee a spiritual godfather though. An innovative and influential martial artist and talented individual, certainly, but not someone whose religious and moral views I necessarily agree with.

 

[MichiganTKD]

I mean superficial because all these guys do is train to fight other fighters in a controlled ring environment. To that end, instead of being students of a martial art, they pick and choose selected techniques from various styles to help them become better fighters. They do not care about etiquette, history, background, manners, or how/why a technique developed. All they care about is learning a few moves from different styles to become better fighters. In the process they develop a fighting mentality. This is not the same having warrior spirit or martial art spirit. Fighting mentality means all you do is practice and train to to fight. One step above a thug, because you don't actually try to make trouble. Instead, these UFC, Pride, and K-1 guys become one-dimensional: Their whole life at that point is spent preparing for fighting instead of using martial arts to enrich their lives.
They have such disrespect for traditional arts and denigrate them because they fail to see how these arts train them for their next fight, not realizing that these arts help you AVOID fighting.

 

[Adept]

I mean superficial because all these guys do is train to fight other fighters in a controlled ring environment.

Thats only as accurate as saying traditional martial artists only leanr how to fight other traditional martial artists of the same style in point sparring tournaments.

They do not care about etiquette, history, background, manners, or how/why a technique developed. All they care about is learning a few moves from different styles to become better fighters.

I freely admit that this description suits me. The etiquette and history of a particular throw or punch is irrelevant to me. I learned manners and morals from my parents and other formative influences as a child. I learn martial arts to be the best I can be.

In the process they develop a fighting mentality. This is not the same having warrior spirit or martial art spirit. Fighting mentality means all you do is practice and train to to fight. One step above a thug, because you don't actually try to make trouble.

This is interesting. I'm going to have to hit you up for some definitions. What is a fighting mentality, what is a martial/warrior spirit, and how are they different? And how are they developed differently by TMA and MMA?

Instead, these UFC, Pride, and K-1 guys become one-dimensional: Their whole life at that point is spent preparing for fighting instead of using martial arts to enrich their lives.

To a certain degree. They are proffesional athletes. They make their living from being extremely strong, fit, and skilled. So naturally, it occupies a lot of their time. One dimensional? I dont think so. No more one dimensional than any other professional athlete.

They have such disrespect for traditional arts and denigrate them because they fail to see how these arts train them for their next fight, not realizing that these arts help you AVOID fighting.

Well, as I said earlier, I dont hear MMA fighters denigrate TMA any more than I hear MMA fighters denigrate TMA.

 

[Marginal]

Well, as I said earlier, I dont hear MMA fighters denigrate TMA any more than I hear MMA fighters denigrate TMA.

Going by the spirit rather than the meaning...

www.sherdog.com
rec.martial-arts

Mention that you practice a TMA on either. See what happens.

I'm betting at least 10 responses on RMA telling you you're utterly wasting your time. One guy ranting about Cho's TKD, and someone else ranting about ear biting.

Not saying there aren't reasonable MMA'ers, but there tend to be very vocal, obnoxious people in MMA circles that are more than happy to lay down what they perceive as "the cold truth".