Shadow Boxing vs Kata fallacy argument.

[Kung Fu Wang]

Foundation is often neglected indefinitely.

- Bill Gates was Harvard University (dropped out).
- Steve Jobs was Reed College in Portland, Oregon (dropped out).
- Mark Zuckerberg was Harvard University (dropped out).

If we compare

- university education with MA foundation,
- career with MA application,

a perfect MA foundation is not that important after all.

Application require:

- catch good timing,
- recognize an opportunity,
- move in through a right angle.

All has nothing to do with foundation.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

- Bill Gates was Harvard University (dropped out).
- Steve Jobs was Reed College in Portland, Oregon (dropped out).
- Mark Zuckerberg was Harvard University (dropped out).

If we compare

- university education with MA foundation,
- career with MA application,

a perfect MA foundation is not that important after all.

Why would you compare the highest level of education to foundation? If you're going to decide to make that comparison (without knowing if it's valid) you should at least use something like high school to compare foundation.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Why would you compare the highest level of education to foundation? If you're going to decide to make that comparison (without knowing if it's valid) you should at least use something like high school to compare foundation.

Most people need a college degree to find a job. One of my friends could not get a job with a

- liberal arts degree.
- PhD degree in physics. He went back to school to obtain his computer science PhD degree. When he started to work his 1st job, he already had white hair on his head. He had spent too much time to build his foundation. All his life, he had a very bad attitude.

This remind me a MA guy with strong foundation and get knocked out within 8 second in the ring.

 

[drop bear]

if you had a staff and someone PHYSICALLY attacked you. Would you not use the staff to defend yourself?
If you didn't have staff and someone PHYSICALLY attacked you. Would you or would use your hands to defend yourself?

It's not that difficult man.

It depends how bad I wanted to hurt them to be honest.

Which is why I also don't wear rings to do unnecessary damage.

But my martial arts isn't so ineffective as to need to walk around with a stick or spikey rings.

 

[Buka]

I don’t have a college degree, even though I went to college for three years in Liberal Arts as an English major.

It was taking too much time away from my study of Martial Arts so I left.

And I got a dandy of a job. But that was then.

Probably not a good idea, but forty plus years later I don’t have one single regret. That being said, I would NOT recommend that particular path to anyone. Times have changed.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Most people need a college degree to find a job. One of my friends could not get a job with a

- liberal arts degree.
- PhD degree in physics. He went back to school to obtain his computer science PhD degree. When he started to work his 1st job, he already had white hair on his head. He had spent too much time to build his foundation. All his life, he had a very bad attitude.

This remind me a MA guy with strong foundation and get knocked out within 8 second in the ring.

So the comparison would then be that you need a college education to find a job, would be the experience needed to be a pro boxer/wrestler/etc. I would hope that at that point you would be past the foundation stage.

As for your friend, that seems to be more about him than his education. I know people who have gotten jobs with both of what you listed.

 

[Steve]

So the comparison would then be that you need a college education to find a job, would be the experience needed to be a pro boxer/wrestler/etc. I would hope that at that point you would be past the foundation stage.

As for your friend, that seems to be more about him than his education. I know people who have gotten jobs with both of what you listed.

I don't know about the boxing, pro boxing, foundation discussion. But regarding the analogy, how and why people have the jobs they have is fascinating to me.

 

[Flying Crane]

The issue is one can still develop foundation when he is old. One cannot develop fighting experience when he is old. So sparring should be done when one is still young.

A: If I ever see you with my girlfriend again, I'll kill you.
B: I refuse to fight you until I have developed a strong MA foundation.

A: You have developed a strong foundation. Now you should test your skill in the ring, or on the mat.
B: But I'm already 50 years old with glaucoma. My eye doctor told me that I should not bend my head below my heart level.

Or, you learn how to develop your foundation from the very beginning and your make that a regular part of your training. You keep working on it. After six months it is somewhat functional and you actually understand it. After two It is powerful and highly functional. Your skills are growing right along with it, from the get-go.

When people put this kind of thing off for “later” I believe that in most cases later never comes.

 

[Flying Crane]

- Bill Gates was Harvard University (dropped out).
- Steve Jobs was Reed College in Portland, Oregon (dropped out).
- Mark Zuckerberg was Harvard University (dropped out).

If we compare

- university education with MA foundation,
- career with MA application,

a perfect MA foundation is not that important after all.

Application require:

- catch good timing,
- recognize an opportunity,
- move in through a right angle.

All has nothing to do with foundation.

I’ve got to ask you: what is your interpretation of foundation and fundamentals, and how do you go about training them?

Regarding Jobs and Zuckerberg, please don’t tell you you think their unusual situations have any relation to most people.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I’ve got to ask you: what is your interpretation of foundation and fundamentals, and how do you go about training them?

Foundation is to develop personal abilities such as:

- Endurance.
- Stretching.
- Single leg balance.
- Stances switching.
- Speed.
- Power.
- Body alignment.
- Body framing (Peng Jing)
- Body unification.
- Body coordination (hand coordinate with foot, ...).
- ...

The issue is the foundation has nothing to do with "opponent". Fighting has to do with opponent such as:

- timing,
- opportunity,
- angle.
- balance (when handle opponent).
- power (also when handle opponent).

For example, one cannot develop "good timing" by himself alone.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

When people put this kind of thing off for “later” I believe that in most cases later never comes.

Agree! But does it matter?

- One guy has 18-2 under his belt. When he entered the form competition, he got very low score. If he can use single leg to take down everybody on this planet, he doesn't need any more foundation. This guy may improve his foundation later, or he may not.

- One guy who has great foundation. He could throw 6 punches in 1 second. His kicks was as fast as Bruce Lee's kick. He got knocked down in 8 seconds. This guy's excellent foundation has 0 value.

When I look at these 2 examples, it's not difficult for me to draw my conclusion. Foundation may be important in fighting. But "fighting experience" is even more important than foundation.

Foundation has no value if one can't use it in fighting (I'm pretty sure that my long fist teacher won't agree with me on this. He always think that I care about fighting too much).

 

[Flying Crane]

Agree! But does it matter?

- One guy has 18-2 under his belt. When he entered the form competition, he got very low score. If he can use single leg to take down everybody on this planet, he doesn't need any more foundation. This guy may improve his foundation later, or he may not.

- One guy who has great foundation. He could throw 6 punches in 1 second. His kicks was as fast as Bruce Lee's kick. He got knocked down in 8 seconds. This guy's excellent foundation has 0 value.

When I look at these 2 examples, it's not difficult for me to draw my conclusion. Foundation may be important in fighting. But "fighting experience" is even more important than foundation.

Foundation has no value if one can't use it in fighting (I'm pretty sure that my long fist teacher won't agree with me on this. He always think that I care about fighting too much).

See, I’ve pointed this out before. You keep looking at things with an “either/or” perspective and it does not need to be that way. You can get both, although it probably works best to delay one for a time. But that isn’t forever. And then you build them both together.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

You keep looking at things with an “either/or” perspective and it does not need to be that way.

This has to do with my personal experience.

When I competed in tournament, my head lock was not strong enough. When my head lock was strong enough, I don't compete in tournament any more.

Something is not right here. But I don't know how to solve this kind of problem.

 

[Flying Crane]

This has to do with my personal experience.

When I competed in tournament, my head lock was not strong enough. When my head lock was strong enough, I don't compete in tournament any more.

Something is not right here. But I don't know how to solve this kind of problem.

Do you work on one thing at a time, to the exclusion of others? I try to keep working on them all, a bit at a time.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Do you work on one thing at a time, to the exclusion of others? I try to keep working on them all, a bit at a time.

I have developed my foundation through my long fist system. Since I no longer teach long fist to my students, I need to find a different way to help them to develop their foundation. I try to find "kill 2 birds with 1 stone" solution. I believe one can develop foundation through partner drill.

Bruce Lee's foundation was from the WC system. When he started JKD, did he still teach his students those 3 WC forms? How did Bruce Lee help his students to build up their foundation?

 

[Flying Crane]

I have developed my foundation through my long fist system. Since I no longer teach long fist to my students, I need to find a different way to help them to develop their foundation. I try to find "kill 2 birds with 1 stone" solution. I believe one can develop foundation through partner drill.

Bruce Lee's foundation was from the WC system. When he started JKD, did he still teach his students those 3 WC forms? How did Bruce Lee help his students to build up their foundation?

So what is the foundation for shuai jow? I imagine it must be different from long fist. My experience says that one foundation does not fit all systems. Each system has its own foundation and develops it in their own way. If you are teaching shuai jow then you ought to be teaching the foundation that shuai jow is built on, not Longfist foundation.

I don’t know what Bruce Lee didand I don’t find it relevant to most people.

 

[JowGaWolf]

- Bill Gates was Harvard University (dropped out).
- Steve Jobs was Reed College in Portland, Oregon (dropped out).
- Mark Zuckerberg was Harvard University (dropped out).

If we compare

- university education with MA foundation,
- career with MA application,

a perfect MA foundation is not that important after all.

There are many people who know application and how to do it. But they lack the foundation needed to actually deploy it, themselves.

- Bill Gates was Harvard University (dropped out).
- Steve Jobs was Reed College in Portland, Oregon (dropped out).
- Mark Zuckerberg was Harvard University (dropped out).

If we compare

- university education with MA foundation,
- career with MA application,

a perfect MA foundation is not that important after all.

Application require:

- catch good timing,
- recognize an opportunity,
- move in through a right angle.

All has nothing to do with foundation.

No one is accepted to Harvard University without a strong foundation. Even with small colleges, you have to have a decent foundation in order to make it through it.

 

[JowGaWolf]

But my martial arts isn't so ineffective as to need to walk around with a stick or spikey rings.

I guess cops really suck butt at fighting being that they have to carry weapons. They must have no skills at all. Just going by your logic.

Not speaking ill of the dead. I'm pretty sure he felt good about his fighting skills as well.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I would never teach something like that on day one.



I believe application is a distraction in the beginning, when foundation is being built. Application can he done, but if it is overdone then foundation never gets properly built. More application can come, but ought to wait a bit until foundation has a chance first.

When foundation is strong, application is much stronger. It is easy to dive straight into application, and never be as effective as it could be, because foundation is always “put off for later” which never becomes now. Foundation is often neglected indefinitely.

I don’t think it has to be a distraction, though in the more traditional approaches I’ve seen it would be. In modern Western approaches, early application seems to fit well.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I believe application is a distraction in the beginning, when foundation is being built.

I strongly believe the other way around is more correct. I believe foundation can be a distraction for application.

I teach all beginners on their 1st day class to against

1. All punches - Use front kick to counter all punches.
2. Straight line kick - Deflect front kick, jam leading arm, and punch.
3. Circular kick - Catch a roundhouse kick.
4. Leg shooting - Use downward pulling to counter leg shooting.

I want to tell all beginners that MA training is to solve problems. Today, our problems are:

- Boxer's punch.
- Kung Fu guy's front kick.
- TKD guy's side kick.
- MT guy's roundhouse kick.
- Wrestler's leg shooting.

After a student has learned the application of "downward pulling",

I then teach him how to develop pulling power by using the weight pulley.

So I 1st teach someone how to apply a technique through the partner drill. I then tell him how to develop foundation for it. This way a student can see the goal. He will spend time to build foundation to reach that goal.