Self Defense usage of the Grappling Arts

[Gerry Seymour]

My impression of Aki specifically in that instance is like in tennis where you get the guy running from one end of the court to the other untill he can't keep up.

His defence is creating the force to apply the technique.

You can see in that clip the guys just starting to float off their feet.

Ah! Okay, I can work with that definition. It's not my definition, but I've never found two people who agree entirely on a single definition for it.

 

[Steve]

If you've only got the one opponent, and you're not fighting n broken glass or a lava flow, and your groundwork skill is significantly better than your opponent's, then the ground isn't a bad place to be. You can wear someone out until they're so tired they can hardly move sometimes with little effort.

But, the above situations needs to be that way, not a dangerous environment and you've got to be quite a bit better than they.

Or if you're the one with friends.

 

[drop bear]

I think people have this idea of fighting multiples is like. "I am going to hit this guy and knock him out then break that guys knee. And then work every one else into a straight line so i can deal with them. "

And normally it really isn't. It is more like you throw a punch and then eat a hundred punches from all directions.

The point of all this is. If you are fighting a guy and you are worried about his friends. Then you need to finish that guy quickly.

So sometimes taking a guy down and punching him in ground and pound is a viable tactic. Especially if you haven't dropped him stand up.

You just need a little time and space gap to do it.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I think people have this idea of fighting multiples is like. "I am going to hit this guy and knock him out then break that guys knee. And then work every one else into a straight line so i can deal with them. "

And normally it really isn't. It is more like you throw a punch and then eat a hundred punches from all directions.

The point of all this is. If you are fighting a guy and you are worried about his friends. Then you need to finish that guy quickly.

So sometimes taking a guy down and punching him in ground and pound is a viable tactic. Especially if you haven't dropped him stand up.

You just need a little time and space gap to do it.

I'd argue that taking him down hard is a better tactic in that situation, as it will take most folks out of the fight for a time (at minimum). Something folks who do ground-n-pound are actually quite good at.

 

[JP3]

Or if you're the one with friends.

Touche'.... but that puts you in the category of "bad guy," right?

Well, unless you're a cop or a military servicemenber in action.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Touche'.... but that puts you in the category of "bad guy," right?

Well, unless you're a cop or a military servicemenber in action.

Not necessarily. Someone might be dumb enough to jump you while you're with friends. I've stumbled across enough videos to know it's not exactly rare.

 

[drop bear]

Touche'.... but that puts you in the category of "bad guy," right?

Well, unless you're a cop or a military servicemenber in action.

If someone tries to fight my friend. Then I will fight them I am not sure how that makes me bad.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If someone tries to fight my friend. Then I will fight them I am not sure how that makes me bad.

If someone tries to fight your friend and you are not helping your friend to fight back, you will be a bad guy.

If you are a bad guy, the whole earth will filled with "good guys", what a nice world that you are living in.

 

[JP3]

OK, first Gerry....

Not necessarily. Someone might be dumb enough to jump you while you're with friends. I've stumbled across enough videos to know it's not exactly rare.

And then Drop...

If someone tries to fight my friend. Then I will fight them I am not sure how that makes me bad.

C'mon you guys... no Marquis of Queensbury rules here?

Marquess of Queensberry Rules - Wikipedia

One on One, Mano e Mano, "That Dude challenged my Honor," or "That guy just grabbed my wife's ***," and now Let's take this outside?

Keep in mind, one guy attacks one other guy, and the attacked reacts in self-defense and as long as he's not over the top, he's got that defense. One guy attacks another guy, and that guy and his friends jump on him and make him a puddle, that's felony assault. On the Group.

Working security is a gray area. Don't mark people up and it's usually OK, as the cops aren't forced to "see" anything.

Note: I did not mean to sit there and eat popcorn while your boy is getting brained with a bottle, that in itself is uncouth.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

OK, first Gerry....



And then Drop...



C'mon you guys... no Marquis of Queensbury rules here?

Marquess of Queensberry Rules - Wikipedia

One on One, Mano e Mano, "That Dude challenged my Honor," or "That guy just grabbed my wife's ***," and now Let's take this outside?

Keep in mind, one guy attacks one other guy, and the attacked reacts in self-defense and as long as he's not over the top, he's got that defense. One guy attacks another guy, and that guy and his friends jump on him and make him a puddle, that's felony assault. On the Group.

Working security is a gray area. Don't mark people up and it's usually OK, as the cops aren't forced to "see" anything.

Note: I did not mean to sit there and eat popcorn while your boy is getting brained with a bottle, that in itself is uncouth.

Doesn't have to be "make him into a puddle." The original point was about the risk of going to the ground being mitigated if you're the one with friends. Friends can keep others from interfering. Friends can help you restrain someone. No, in no way will I stand back and let a friend duke it out if someone attacks them. Too many bad things can happen. I'll find the first opportunity to get in and remove the attacker from the equation, unless my friend gets it under control first.

 

[drop bear]

OK, first Gerry....



And then Drop...



C'mon you guys... no Marquis of Queensbury rules here?

Marquess of Queensberry Rules - Wikipedia

One on One, Mano e Mano, "That Dude challenged my Honor," or "That guy just grabbed my wife's ***," and now Let's take this outside?

Keep in mind, one guy attacks one other guy, and the attacked reacts in self-defense and as long as he's not over the top, he's got that defense. One guy attacks another guy, and that guy and his friends jump on him and make him a puddle, that's felony assault. On the Group.

Working security is a gray area. Don't mark people up and it's usually OK, as the cops aren't forced to "see" anything.

Note: I did not mean to sit there and eat popcorn while your boy is getting brained with a bottle, that in itself is uncouth.

But then i might miss out on a fight.

 

[JP3]

But then i might miss out on a fight.

Again, Touche'.

Gerry, I have the impression that Drop would reduce the guy who attacks his mate to a puddle. Probably albeit untentionally and most likely faster than most people would realize there IS a fight even taking place. You went all serious on me. Of course you get in there and try to break things up, separate people, or substitute in if your friend has no skillset. But, sometimes people think that, "Hey, if the other guy swings at my friend we get to beat him down. It's his fault for starting it." And, it is a bit muddier than that. Of course assist your friends. Of course you do not get to engage in liquefying a bad guy, with numbers, lifting the level of violence, or using force multipliers like weapons if they don't have one. All I was trying to state.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Again, Touche'.

Gerry, I have the impression that Drop would reduce the guy who attacks his mate to a puddle. Probably albeit untentionally and most likely faster than most people would realize there IS a fight even taking place. You went all serious on me. Of course you get in there and try to break things up, separate people, or substitute in if your friend has no skillset. But, sometimes people think that, "Hey, if the other guy swings at my friend we get to beat him down. It's his fault for starting it." And, it is a bit muddier than that. Of course assist your friends. Of course you do not get to engage in liquefying a bad guy, with numbers, lifting the level of violence, or using force multipliers like weapons if they don't have one. All I was trying to state.

Agreed.

Mind you, I never said I wouldn't reduce the guy to a puddle - just that it needn't be so. It probably depends how much I hurt that day. The more I hurt, the faster I have to end it.

 

[UrsaMater]

I think people have this idea of fighting multiples is like. "I am going to hit this guy and knock him out then break that guys knee. And then work every one else into a straight line so i can deal with them. "

And normally it really isn't. It is more like you throw a punch and then eat a hundred punches from all directions.

The point of all this is. If you are fighting a guy and you are worried about his friends. Then you need to finish that guy quickly.

So sometimes taking a guy down and punching him in ground and pound is a viable tactic. Especially if you haven't dropped him stand up.

You just need a little time and space gap to do it.

Thanks for the greeting guys, I like this place, I should sign on more often.
So if you're referring to my post what I mean is that, ideally, you wouldn't allow a group to surround you in the first place. You know, the same principle of maintaining distance from getting hit on a larger scale. I'm not saying that you're going to be able to kill 9 guys if you avoid going to ground, I'm saying you have BETTER CHANCE of avoiding prison rape (just an example) if you move around on your feet actively and shepherd them during the escalation (which you may or may not get, every encounter is different) so they don't all have their hands on you at once, so you can force one body to occlude another for a bit while you buy time for something better (Like getting on the other side of a locked door or pulling a weapon, or making extravagant promises.) Going to ground is a one on one affair and its going to take too long for what you suggest and CHANCES are it won't go your way.
Btw Ive got a group of like 3 people in mind for this particular situation not 6 (so boned if its 6.) Eye gouging, nut kicking and strikes to the brain stem are what the doctor calls for in this situation. And also keep in mind this whole post for me is a game of WOULD YOU RATHER. And I'd rather make like Jack Dempsey than Royce Gracie. And this is coming from a guy that likes to wrestle, I hug people routinely, I keep them safe, in nice padded leather restraints. But against multiples I'm not leaving my feet. Oh and wear long sleeves, scratches are common and anybody can scratch you (or bleed on you) if you wrestle with them, or "ground and pound" them and there are LOTS of people out there with HIV and Hep C. Just my 2 cents. Fighting is a lot more gross than people let on.

 

[Skullpunch]

Does your class take into account the self defense side of grappling?

I'm a judo guy so no, our class is mostly sport oriented.

I've done bjj before at a couple of different locations and the self-defense aspect of it is hit or miss, one class had a self-defense specific day per week and the other was pure sport.

That said, the idea that "if you're on the ground you're dead so grappling isn't that good for self-defense" is 100% pure larping. Even a pure sport bjj and/or judo guy is going to be light-years ahead of 99% (conservatively) of other martial arts practitioners at staying off the ground, getting off the ground should he find himself there, avoiding the clinch, escaping the clinch should he find himself there, etc. If you don't know how to grapple you're dead if you find yourself in those situations, and you most likely will if you don't know how to grapple because then you won't know how to avoid it.

Grappling dictates where the fight goes, this is common sense. Dictating where the fight goes is useful for self defense, this is also common sense.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I'm a judo guy so no, our class is mostly sport oriented.

I've done bjj before at a couple of different locations and the self-defense aspect of it is hit or miss, one class had a self-defense specific day per week and the other was pure sport.

That said, the idea that "if you're on the ground you're dead so grappling isn't that good for self-defense" is 100% pure larping. Even a pure sport bjj and/or judo guy is going to be light-years ahead of 99% (conservatively) of other martial arts practitioners at staying off the ground, getting off the ground should he find himself there, avoiding the clinch, escaping the clinch should he find himself there, etc. If you don't know how to grapple you're dead if you find yourself in those situations, and you most likely will if you don't know how to grapple because then you won't know how to avoid it.

Grappling dictates where the fight goes, this is common sense. Dictating where the fight goes is useful for self defense, this is also common sense.

I'd argue that any well-trained martial artist can control where the fight goes, when facing an untrained (or poorly trained) attacker. Those of us who do grappling (which includes both standing and ground work) are in another group, where we're specifically trained to control that aspect, so we have an advantage in keeping on our feet. Those who train for sport (and those who "compete" within their school, to a lesser extent) will be the most able to resist being taken to the ground by someone who has skill at taking people to the ground.

 

[drop bear]

Actually a guy from class jujitsued the hell out of a guy breaking up a fight at his work between a whole bunch of drunk employees.

Haven't got the whole story on it yet.

 

[Steve]

Actually a guy from class jujitsued the hell out of a guy breaking up a fight at his work between a whole bunch of drunk employees.

Haven't got the whole story on it yet.

Anecdotal evidence... and because I'm inclined to agree with you anyway, it is credible. I will allow it.

 

[drop bear]

Anecdotal evidence... and because I'm inclined to agree with you anyway, it is credible. I will allow it.

aparently video exists. whether we can get it and post it is another matter.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

aparently video exists. whether we can get it and post it is another matter.

So, anecdotal evidence of non-anecdotal evidence?