Self Defense usage of the Grappling Arts

[drop bear]

It is interesting how little energy it really takes, if one is of a mind to only use a little. Put in the proper place, in the proper direction.

The problem is getting amped up and going Mongo on people. It's sort of difficult to stay loose, relaxed and ... well ... bored enough to really let the aiki do it's thing. Even though I know it will, if I just let it. Such is the path.

A journey, not a destination and all that.

Which is why i subscribe to achieving positional dominance instead.

 

[JP3]

Which is why i subscribe to achieving positional dominance instead.

Methinks that the word dominance if the principal operative word, eh?

We probably do a lot of the same stuff, except for punching people. I don't want to do that anymore as I don't think I could afford the time off of work with the way my lady spends... ahh... with the way my budget works. The difference is that I feel sort of bad about accidentally doing what it is that you are intentionally striving to achieve. Sort of Luke Skywalker ninnyism against Darth Vader coolness. *shrug*

 

[drop bear]

Methinks that the word dominance if the principal operative word, eh?

We probably do a lot of the same stuff, except for punching people. I don't want to do that anymore as I don't think I could afford the time off of work with the way my lady spends... ahh... with the way my budget works. The difference is that I feel sort of bad about accidentally doing what it is that you are intentionally striving to achieve. Sort of Luke Skywalker ninnyism against Darth Vader coolness. *shrug*

Not really if it is aki. Aki takes a threat and turns it against the user.

You punch I catch it and use that momentum to throw.

Positional dominance removes the threat first.

So i under hook. You can't punch

They are not mutually exclusive by the way. More of a percentage thing

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Not really if it is aki. Aki takes a threat and turns it against the user.

You punch I catch it and use that momentum to throw.

Positional dominance removes the threat first.

So i under hook. You can't punch

They are not mutually exclusive by the way. More of a percentage thing

It all comes down to how people interpret the principle of "aiki", I think. My view is that not all aiki must be circular, or soft, or forgiving. It's possible to work within the principle of aiki and still hit people, jam, and slam. Kind of your point, I think. So long as I'm taking the physical energy of the attack and using it to generate the response (rather than pulling or pushing), it's still "aiki" to me. I'll hit less than you, probably, but that's more a difference in style.

 

[drop bear]

It all comes down to how people interpret the principle of "aiki", I think. My view is that not all aiki must be circular, or soft, or forgiving. It's possible to work within the principle of aiki and still hit people, jam, and slam. Kind of your point, I think. So long as I'm taking the physical energy of the attack and using it to generate the response (rather than pulling or pushing), it's still "aiki" to me. I'll hit less than you, probably, but that's more a difference in style.

Grip fighting which is what Judo,wrestling, grapplers all do to generate aki. Wouldn't be aki though?

It just forces you either create energy or be ground into the deck.

So lets use this element first. If you cant escape the position it just increases. It is not aki just pressure.

You can of course defend that pressure. But doing so creates aki.

Aikido used against punching will still go through that positional pressure phase.

 

[stonewall1350]

Pontificating.

I think that was the word. I've not noted it being used as often in one short set of words before, so it was jarring, but I think you did use it correctly... but perhaps unintentionally.

To "pontificate" = express one's opinions in a way considered annoyingly pompous and dogmatic; or (in the Roman Catholic Church) officiate as bishop, especially at Mas.

It didn't sound like you were in church, so.... I can see why he said that he didn't think that word means what You think it means.

Perhaps I meant contemplate or ponder. Be glad I didn't say fornicate. I appreciate the grammar check. And to be fair to me, this is a common misuse of the word "to think." In fact I would go so far as to say it has a specific meaning in the misuse..."to think deeply about over a long period of time." Which could be ponder or contemplate. But not fornicate.


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[stonewall1350]

The ground. Sometimes it's made to sound like a plane in another dimension. "It's not the place to be in a real fight, Other people will kick you, No good against multiples, It's harder to get away."

It's just the ground for God sakes. It's been there, in contact with us, almost every minute of our lives. The place not to be in a real fight is on an escalator, or the edge of a building, or in car. The ground is just fine.

We used to train the ground in a lot of ways. Being surrounded by people who were going to kick or stomp (big difference) or jump on. You have to train using your arms to turn yourself (your feet) towards all directions, you have to use and train various umbrella' tehniques to shield your head. You have to practice quick, violent rolls towards surrounding legs. And you have to do that carefully to avoid injuries while training - you'll hyper-extend their knees and hyperextend/crush ankles if you go wild.

There's some great ways to train on the ground - or more appropriately, fight on the ground while getting up. And let's be honest here - how many of you actually practice getting up as fast as humanly possible? I'm talking the ground has just caught fire getting up. And how often do you do it? Because you should.

In any dojo I ever taught - getting up from any exercise, or two man set, or while sparring (after setting defensive/offensive guard - then deciding to get up) or stretching (other than really long splits) is done as if the ground just caught fire. I can't actually envision any other way off getting up off the ground in a dojo. Same way you get up in a fight, when you do get up, really f'n fast. I think you're nuts if you don't practice that.

A friend that I am in class with has what you might call a "playful killer instinct." In a rolling session if you are weak for a second (say getting up slow after a stalemate or escape with no tap), he jumps you. No rest. I like it. Forces me to get up correctly every time. And it is something I notice not everyone does. Getting up while creating space. Fast.

As a concealed carry...this is something that concerns me. I know many of my brethren would have no clue what to do. In fact, I frequently will play a mind game on myself. I consider if I break bad...how would I jump someone who I suspect may be carrying. My frequent thought is...how best do I knock them down. Look at the history of infantry combat. Knights, samurai, and so on. The best way to crack the can was to knock them down first. With a sword or a trip. And I think that should be considered for self defense as well.


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[JP3]

Perhaps I meant contemplate or ponder. Be glad I didn't say fornicate. I appreciate the grammar check. And to be fair to me, this is a common misuse of the word "to think." In fact I would go so far as to say it has a specific meaning in the misuse..."to think deeply about over a long period of time." Which could be ponder or contemplate. But not fornicate

Not a grammar check, a vocabulary check. There I go, doing it again. Gerry's a bad influence.

If you want to read something funny, go back and read the O/P word-substituting "fornicate" for "pontificate." Subtly changes the image of the writing, you could say...

"to think," is cogitate. Here's Webster's:

verb - formalhumorous -
verb: cogitate; 3rd person present: cogitates; past tense: cogitated; past participle: cogitated; gerund or present participle: cogitating

Definition: To think deeply about something; meditate or reflect.
To think deeply about something; meditate or reflect.

I like the description, "Get up like the ground's on fire." That captures the way to change levels precisely. I still agree that to be on the ground against multiples is to court defeat, and defeat is a matter of level of the opponent's dislike for you or their bad intentions towards you. Personally, I'd trust neither.

 

[UrsaMater]

Don't go to ground if you have a choice, You probably are going to focus your attention on your attackers so all that glass you find yourself rolling in could be problematic (The more stress you're dealing with the less info you take in.) It limits your vision, it anchors you to one point making it easier to surround you and eliminates the possibility of shepherding everyone into a more manageable line. We get a lot of marines with a bjj background and the smart ones stay on their feet (one guy managed to hip throw two people before we could get hands on him, oh and this is a psych ward) but the ones that go into that guard? Never ends in their favor. I mean it never ends in any of the assaultive guys favor, but its just easier to deal with.
Thoughts?

 

[JP3]

If you've only got the one opponent, and you're not fighting n broken glass or a lava flow, and your groundwork skill is significantly better than your opponent's, then the ground isn't a bad place to be. You can wear someone out until they're so tired they can hardly move sometimes with little effort.

But, the above situations needs to be that way, not a dangerous environment and you've got to be quite a bit better than they.

 

[Buka]

Don't go to ground if you have a choice, You probably are going to focus your attention on your attackers so all that glass you find yourself rolling in could be problematic (The more stress you're dealing with the less info you take in.) It limits your vision, it anchors you to one point making it easier to surround you and eliminates the possibility of shepherding everyone into a more manageable line. We get a lot of marines with a bjj background and the smart ones stay on their feet (one guy managed to hip throw two people before we could get hands on him, oh and this is a psych ward) but the ones that go into that guard? Never ends in their favor. I mean it never ends in any of the assaultive guys favor, but its just easier to deal with.
Thoughts?

Welcome to MartialTalk, bro.

 

[Paul_D]

and your groundwork skill is significantly better than your opponent's, then the ground isn't a bad place to be.

But of course you won't know the answer to that until you're on the gorund, by which time it's too late.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

But of course you won't know the answer to that until you're on the gorund, by which time it's too late.

For some of us the statistical odds are heavily in our favor.

Also it's only "too late" to change our minds about being on the ground if we are on the bottom - which isn't where we want to be anyway. If I end up on the ground underneath my opponent in a fight, it's probably because they were good enough to take me down against my will. If I were to take an attacker down in a street fight, my first move is to top of knee mount, which allows me freedom to quickly disengage if I need to.

 

[Paul_D]

For some of us the statistical odds are heavily in our favor.

Also it's only "too late" to change our minds about being on the ground if we are on the bottom

So his mates or bystanders won't kick you in the head or stab you if you are on top?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Grip fighting which is what Judo,wrestling, grapplers all do to generate aki. Wouldn't be aki though?

It just forces you either create energy or be ground into the deck.

So lets use this element first. If you cant escape the position it just increases. It is not aki just pressure.

You can of course defend that pressure. But doing so creates aki.

Aikido used against punching will still go through that positional pressure phase.

I'm not sure how you're defining "aiki", DB. There's nothing in that wrestling clip I'd consider "aiki". Nothing wrong with it, and you would probably not see much aiki from me if I'm working against a skilled wrestler (they'd likely be good at preventing it) unless they are angry and over-committing.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

So his mates or bystanders won't kick you in the head or stab you if you are on top?

1. I think everybody already agreed that deliberately choosing to go to the ground in a multi-attacker situation was a bad idea. I was responding to your comment that you won't know whether you have better ground skills than your opponent until you have committed to being on the ground. I think the statistics are in my favor on that bit.
2. I specified my preference for knee ride because if my opponent does turn out to have allies I hadn't previously spotted, being on top of knee ride allows me to see them coming, disengage, and retreat. I teach knee ride as a preferred position for that very reason.
3. If I'm on top of knee ride, being kicked in the head isn't a huge concern. It's relatively easy to see coming and deal with. Getting stabbed is a risk - but if you are being assaulted by multiple attackers with knives then you better have been working on your sprinting because it's a bad, bad situation whether you are on your feet or not. Dealing with multiple attackers is difficult and dangerous. Dealing with an attacker who has a knife is difficult and dangerous. Dealing with both at once? Nike-jutsu all the way.

 

[hoshin1600]

I really hate the retoric of 97% of fights go to the ground. The common usage is a marketing ploy. The truth is more like 97% of people don't know how to fight and trip over their own feet or slip and end up on their butts because they were just flailing their arms around. Falling due to your own inabilities is far different then going to the ground with some knowledge of ground work.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I really hate the retoric of 97% of fights go to the ground. The common usage is a marketing ploy. The truth is more like 97% of people don't know how to fight and trip over their own feet or slip and end up on their butts because they were just flailing their arms around. Falling due to your own inabilities is far different then going to the ground with some knowledge of ground work.

Actually I think the original statistic came from Gracie marketing materials that were quoting an LAPD study on fights involving police officers where, duh, most of the confrontations went to the ground because the officers were taking suspects down in order to subdue and handcuff them. Not exactly a representative study of civilian violence.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Actually I think the original statistic came from Gracie marketing materials that were quoting an LAPD study on fights involving police officers where, duh, most of the confrontations went to the ground because the officers were taking suspects down in order to subdue and handcuff them. Not exactly a representative study of civilian violence.

I hadn't heard a reasonable origin for that stat before, Tony. That stat does, in fact, make sense in that context.

 

[drop bear]

I'm not sure how you're defining "aiki", DB. There's nothing in that wrestling clip I'd consider "aiki". Nothing wrong with it, and you would probably not see much aiki from me if I'm working against a skilled wrestler (they'd likely be good at preventing it) unless they are angry and over-committing.

My impression of Aki specifically in that instance is like in tennis where you get the guy running from one end of the court to the other untill he can't keep up.

His defence is creating the force to apply the technique.

You can see in that clip the guys just starting to float off their feet.