Self Defense from rape

[Gerry Seymour]

You just said it again!

Can you help me understand what you find objectionable about that statement, Tez? To me, it's just stating a truism, that if a person is going to be fighting for their survival/protection, it is better to be a better fighter. Is the problem that it's a statement of the obvious? If so, that's something I often do to get those obvious points out of the way (perhaps a habit from dealing with argumentative people in debate). The statement isn't meant to imply you don't know it, but to point out my view.

A small proportion, most sexual assaults and rapes are done not for sexual motives but to demonstrate power over the victim along with humiliating them and putting them 'in their place' often non homosexual men will rape another man just for this reason.

When you have politicians who blatantly denigrate and degrade women then any campaign is not going to succeed very well. MEP says women are ‘smaller, weaker, less intelligent’ and should be paid less

Agreed. The out-of-balance gender views actually contribute to the power thing, I think. A man who feels men should be have all the power feels emasculated by women gaining power, and takes that out by using rape to take power. I think that's less common than it once was in Western society. I hear reports from some countries where gender roles are still greatly out of balance. And yeah, some of the messages coming from political "leaders" in unspecified countries near my location do not help the issue.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Unfortunately, as you point out we are not in a position to discuss in too great a depth here without it becoming a technical discussion, so it wasn't a 100% blanket statement more of a general one to give an idea of the subject.

To an extent I agree BUT and this is a very big BUT when martial artists are advertising complete systems of self defence which only consist of kicks and punches then we should be pointing out that there are more ways to defend yourself that them. When you have martial artists who think that all one has to do is fight your way out of an attack we have to say something. I'm not pointing or including anyone here in this by the way. As I've said before self defence for women is big business now, to a certain extent these places are spreading a certain amount of alarm with their advertising screaming how dangerous it is for women therefore you need the acme school of kickass fighting for women. We have places offering complete systems of self defence so that women 'never need worry again' etc then we have to discuss the wider implications of this and how it damages not just the women who 'train' there but all of us.

I think this is why I've never felt comfortable enough to advertise a SD for women program. I can teach them some SD skills and techniques, but I'm not sure that's the right approach for someone who's looking for something specifically for women. I feel like that kind of program ought to get specifically into the issues surrounding rape and domestic violence. Those are outside my area. Some of what I teach can help in some of those situations, but I don't really cover them in depth. And I try to be clear with all students (all genders, ages, etc.) that what I teach will fit many possible circumstances, but not all. And I do occasionally touch on some of the things that have come up in this thread, to make sure everyone is clear where I stand on them, and to make sure I'm not communicating another message unintentionally.

 

[Tez3]

Can you help me understand what you find objectionable about that statement, Tez?

I don't find it objectionable but you keep saying it in answers to my posts so it looks like you are repeating it to me!


More nonsense. Ukip donor says women cannot be raped by their husbands
They may have “a long history of chauvinism”, but Ukip is not the only party failing women

 

[JowGaWolf]

I know and what I was referring to was what men say to women when no one else is around.
We, well, everyone around the world knows of this example sadly. I think though that men who do this don't actually understand that it doesn't show off how masculine they are, quite the opposite, they may think it's big man talk but it's actually looked at as 'those who talk can't do'. I don't think they realise how much it makes most people laugh at them.

Men who feel the need to show masculinity have tons of other issues that complicate things. I took a look at prison rapes to see what triggered those incidents but couldn't get through much of it, so I'll probably read about it and skip the videos. Some of what the attackers were saying about what they do to other prisoners could be used as a "scared straight" campaign.

Thanks for you input throughout this discussion because this has definitely been productive.

 

[JowGaWolf]

We have places offering complete systems of self defence so that women 'never need worry again'

I would like to add that this isn't a gender specific marketing theme. Guys get hit with this as well. If a school uses any type of marketing service then, it's going to be common to see that type of imagery. People who know about marketing often has little understanding of the product but know how to sell the product and get people to invest.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I don't find it objectionable but you keep saying it in answers to my posts so it looks like you are repeating it to me!


More nonsense. Ukip donor says women cannot be raped by their husbands
They may have “a long history of chauvinism”, but Ukip is not the only party failing women

Okay that makes sense. I think I was feeling like I hadn't said it the right way the first time, so tried a different way. So yeah, I kept repeating it. Bad habit of mine, sometimes.

 

[Tez3]

I would like to add that this isn't a gender specific marketing theme. Guys get hit with this as well

I'm afraid the ones I'm talking about are gender specific, they are aimed at women.
Women’s Self Defence | Combat Academy
Self Defence for Women | Pro Holistic
Womens Self Defense | Krav Maga Scotland | Scot Krav Maga | SKMS
Home - Reading Womens Self Defence

There's hundreds and hundreds more if you Google them. I haven't seen any male specific ones yet, plenty of 'family and children's ones' though.

As is probably fairly obvious I'm extremely passionate about the right training for everyone but especially women because I do feel many martial arts places are letting them down by providing poor training. So I guess I have been quite insistent, even more than usual on putting my point across, yes women should be able to fight but properly and with the understanding that in the event of an attack they use their instincts and gut feeling about what to do. Poor training leading to a false sense of security fails women who want to keep themselves safe. Poor training demeans us all.

 

[hoshin1600]

As I've said before self defence for women is big business now, to a certain extent these places are spreading a certain amount of alarm with their advertising screaming how dangerous it is for women therefore you need the acme school of kickass fighting for women.

i dont really see that here in the united states. i mean its here but not anymore than there was for the last 30 years. where i see all the bell and whistles and alarms going off is from political groups, activists and college groups and the like. when a group that is supposed to help victims is dependent on federal tax dollars any downward trend is bad for business. so they tend to inflate statistics and use scare tactics to create an epidemic fear, more fear means more attention which is translated into political movement to satisfy their constituents and that friends is more money for these groups. to question the motivations of any such group would be political suicide and as popular as a fart in an elevator.

 

[hoshin1600]

I do feel many martial arts places are letting them down by providing poor training.

YES YES YES!! thank you..
but i will add this works in both genders, teachers love the arts but fail to take on the concept of responsibility. if any student is in a violent situation and does not come out alive, martial arts teachers often fail to understand that this is a possibility and that, that particular student may have been depending on the teacher to give him proper skills.

women should be able to fight but properly and with the understanding that in the event of an attack they use their instincts and gut feeling about what to do.

TEZ and others ,,
i am going to recommend to you the book "Left of bang" if you have not already or are familiar with it. i think you Tez would be able to appreciate the context.
not so much the details but for the over arching philosophy. i teach and train something very similar. however modified for civilian self defense.
in my context there is a time line. there is.....pre event-- event--post event. most people only focus on the EVENT. this is where the focus of martial arts comes in for some cases, however there is PRE EVENT and POST EVENT that is totaly ignored or given lip service.

they use their instincts and gut feeling about what to do.

no no no....anything that has not been thought about and defind will more likely fail during a violent event.

 

[Tez3]

no no no....anything that has not been thought about and defind will more likely fail during a violent event.

I think you are misunderstanding this, I have been in many situations where physically fighting would be the wrong thing to do, I have talked people 'down' and taken them without violence, I have used violence when I considered there was no other way, I have prevaricated, flirted, joked and talked my way out of situations that had the potential to go very wrong. A woman who is being threatened must be able to decide how she acts and what she does without having to later defend her actions. For some acting passively and letting the rape go on is the right thing to do for them, the situation may demand that such as the safety of her children/family, horrible as it is, it would be the right thing to do for her and her family to survive. It might be the right thing for another women to talk her way out of a situation, for another to trick her way and yet another can fight her way out but it has to be down to the victim to use her instincts and gut feeling about how she deals with the attacker. There is nothing in that that means she doesn't think about it, trust me, she will and will also do what seems the right thing for her. And there must be no victim blaming afterwards telling her she should have done this or that.

 

[Tez3]

.....pre event-- event--post event. most people only focus on the EVENT. this is where the focus of martial arts comes in for some cases, however there is PRE EVENT and POST EVENT that is totaly ignored or given lip service.

How does this work when the majority of rapes are committed by someone known and often close to the victim, most rapes aren't 'stranger' rapes where the attacker leaps out of the woods but are perpetrated by someone close to the victim?

"Myth: Women are most likely to be raped outside, after dark and by a stranger, so women shouldn't go out alone at night.



Fact: Only around 10% of rapes are committed by 'strangers'. Around 90% of rapes are committed by known men, and often by someone who the survivor has previously trusted or even loved. People are raped in their homes, their workplaces and other settings where they have previously felt safe. Rapists can be friends, colleagues, clients, neighbours, family members, partners or exes. Risk of rape shouldn't be used as an excuse to control women's movements and restrict their rights and freedom."

Myths about rape

 

[drop bear]

I think there are two discussions going in here. One that is facing backwards, and how we view ad treat victims of sexual assault. And one that is forward facing, discussing how we might better prevent sexual assaukt from occurring.

Backwards, once assault has occurred, as far as I'm concerned, however the victim survived is the right way in that moment.

Forward facing, I think it can be useful to discuss how to prevent assaults from occurring, from different perspectives, What can men do? What can women do? We all have a role to play as parents, coworkers, friends, and training partners.

There is also supporting the victim and solving the problem. And they tend not to go hand in hand either.

 

[drop bear]

I'm afraid the ones I'm talking about are gender specific, they are aimed at women.
Women’s Self Defence | Combat Academy
Self Defence for Women | Pro Holistic
Womens Self Defense | Krav Maga Scotland | Scot Krav Maga | SKMS
Home - Reading Womens Self Defence

There's hundreds and hundreds more if you Google them. I haven't seen any male specific ones yet, plenty of 'family and children's ones' though.

As is probably fairly obvious I'm extremely passionate about the right training for everyone but especially women because I do feel many martial arts places are letting them down by providing poor training. So I guess I have been quite insistent, even more than usual on putting my point across, yes women should be able to fight but properly and with the understanding that in the event of an attack they use their instincts and gut feeling about what to do. Poor training leading to a false sense of security fails women who want to keep themselves safe. Poor training demeans us all.

Wait. Wait. but if they are happy doing the training. Whats the real harm?

 

[hoshin1600]

I think you are misunderstanding this, I have been in many situations where physically fighting would be the wrong thing to do, I have talked people 'down' and taken them without violence, I have used violence when I considered there was no other way, I have prevaricated, flirted, joked and talked my way out of situations that had the potential to go very wrong. A woman who is being threatened must be able to decide how she acts and what she does without having to later defend her actions. For some acting passively and letting the rape go on is the right thing to do for them, the situation may demand that such as the safety of her children/family, horrible as it is, it would be the right thing to do for her and her family to survive. It might be the right thing for another women to talk her way out of a situation, for another to trick her way and yet another can fight her way out but it has to be down to the victim to use her instincts and gut feeling about how she deals with the attacker. There is nothing in that that means she doesn't think about it, trust me, she will and will also do what seems the right thing for her. And there must be no victim blaming afterwards telling her she should have done this or that.

yeah we are kinda talking two different things.

How does this work when the majority of rapes are committed by someone known and often close to the victim, most rapes aren't 'stranger' rapes where the attacker leaps out of the woods but are perpetrated by someone close to the victim?

"Myth: Women are most likely to be raped outside, after dark and by a stranger, so women shouldn't go out alone at night.



Fact: Only around 10% of rapes are committed by 'strangers'. Around 90% of rapes are committed by known men, and often by someone who the survivor has previously trusted or even loved. People are raped in their homes, their workplaces and other settings where they have previously felt safe. Rapists can be friends, colleagues, clients, neighbours, family members, partners or exes. Risk of rape shouldn't be used as an excuse to control women's movements and restrict their rights and freedom."

Myths about rape

i am not ignorant of this. it works. it would take me three pages to describe it and spell it all out. your still taking the defense stance on this topic when there is no need. the concept of a pre event solution is exactly what you are talking about. give it some thought rather than going on the defensive. i am not talking about physical self defense.

please dont keep repeating the 90% rule like that you are misusing the data and misleading readers. the data says 90% (for the sake of conversation we will agree on the percent) of rape offenders are known to the victim. this does not imply that there is a close relationship between the two. they may be known but.... as examples
i didnt really know him but we worked in the same building
i recognized him, he had stopped by the daycare center a few weeks before asking about prices for his child
he was the boyfriend of one of my friends
in situations like this yes he is known but there is no close relationship. i would like to clarify i am not talking about molestation, or spousal. so yes the data may say 90% but the data should not be misunderstood to mean that rapes happen most often by people inside a circle of trust.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

YES YES YES!! thank you..
but i will add this works in both genders, teachers love the arts but fail to take on the concept of responsibility. if any student is in a violent situation and does not come out alive, martial arts teachers often fail to understand that this is a possibility and that, that particular student may have been depending on the teacher to give him proper skills.

TEZ and others ,,
i am going to recommend to you the book "Left of bang" if you have not already or are familiar with it. i think you Tez would be able to appreciate the context.
not so much the details but for the over arching philosophy. i teach and train something very similar. however modified for civilian self defense.
in my context there is a time line. there is.....pre event-- event--post event. most people only focus on the EVENT. this is where the focus of martial arts comes in for some cases, however there is PRE EVENT and POST EVENT that is totaly ignored or given lip service.
no no no....anything that has not been thought about and defind will more likely fail during a violent event.

Left of bang is a great book!

 

[Steve]

Wait. Wait. but if they are happy doing the training. Whats the real harm?

False sense of security... I think that's a real problem with all self defense training.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

False sense of security... I think that's a real problem with all self defense training.

All? That's a big container, Steve.

 

[Steve]

All? That's a big container, Steve.

okay. Almost all. It's a business model.

First you create a market by building up unreasonable fear and insecurity, and then you sell a product that will impart an unrealistic sense of security.

It's like selling a brand of car. You hyper focus on dead children, preying on a parent's natural concern for the safety of their kids. Then you sell them a product that liberates them to drive like maniacs because their car is so safe.

I'll defer to @Tez3 and @aedrasteia about how most women's self defense falls short. I think it's bigger than just this subset of training.

I applaud programs that focus on solving a specific puzzle and helping people within a specific context, and who routinely review their training to asses whether it's having the desired impact.

 

[hoshin1600]

left of bang as i am using it , is a concept. that an event happens along a time line and with the event in the center. think about driving your car, if you could see an accident 5 miles ahead you could easily avoid it. you would move to a different lane, slow down ect. but the way we teach martial arts is to learn swift counter measures within a few seconds of the accident. now fast reaction driving can be important but should not be the goal. it is by far better to avoid long in advance. this is being left of the bang or the event. so training should include things like verbal communication, how to control a conversation and direct it, how to recognize compliance behavior and make correct behavioral decisions. simple things that can change the situation.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

okay. Almost all. It's a business model.

First you create a market by building up unreasonable fear and insecurity, and then you sell a product that will impart an unrealistic sense of security.

It's like selling a brand of car. You hyper focus on dead children, preying on a parent's natural concern for the safety of their kids. Then you sell them a product that liberates them to drive like maniacs because their car is so safe.

I'll defer to @Tez3 and @aedrasteia about how most women's self defense falls short. I think it's bigger than just this subset of training.

I applaud programs that focus on solving a specific puzzle and helping people within a specific context, and who routinely review their training to asses whether it's having the desired impact.

Except that the folks I know who teach "self-defense" don't seem to do that. I'm sure some do, but I haven't run into much of that. Look at my website - no fear mongering there, and my site is about average (if less well thought out in places) compared to others I know of. I offer to teach them techniques for defending themselves, using methods that have shown reasonable success in the past. I make sure they are aware of the limitations of their training. I make sure they get chances to fail during training, so they don't believe they are learning anything that is invincible. Where's the false sense of security?