Self Defense from rape

[Steve]

http://nyti.ms/2mWmeqS

This was interesting... Mexican campaign against sexual assault. Thoughts?

 

[JowGaWolf]

Do you honestly think we don't know? WE DO.

I think you know because of your exposure an by your comments but I can't say this of all women.

 

[CB Jones]

Clothes and looks don't matter.

Rape is a crime of opportunity and sexual deviancy.

That is why situational awareness and awareness of surroundings are what is important.

 

[Tez3]

I think you know because of your exposure an by your comments but I can't say this of all women.

Most women do, if you think the things you hear are bad you want to hear stuff that is said to women when other men aren't listening.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yes you have said that but you are also still telling me that learning to fight is better than not learning, you've done it again in this post, why would I need to be told that? Why do you think I don't know that?

I don't think you don't know that. I initially was responding to your post where you said

Women have always known how to fight back, they don't need to be told to go for vulnerable points, they don't need to be told how to kick, bite, punch, scratch or anything else

Not all do, any more than all men do. If a woman chooses not to fight back, whether they have training or not is not terribly relevant. If she chooses to fight back, having some decent training can help her in that fight.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

http://nyti.ms/2mWmeqS

This was interesting... Mexican campaign against sexual assault. Thoughts?

There is some portion (I'm not sure how much) of sexual assault that appears to be based in out-of-balance gender views. Perhaps ongoing campaigns like this will help with that portion. It won't be a quick fix, but perhaps it will open some eyes and help lead to a generational shift in gender views.

 

[Tez3]

If she chooses to fight back, having some decent training can help her in that fight.

You just said it again!

There is some portion (I'm not sure how much) of sexual assault that appears to be based in out-of-balance gender views. Perhaps ongoing campaigns like this will help with that portion. It won't be a quick fix, but perhaps it will open some eyes and help lead to a generational shift in gender views.

A small proportion, most sexual assaults and rapes are done not for sexual motives but to demonstrate power over the victim along with humiliating them and putting them 'in their place' often non homosexual men will rape another man just for this reason.

When you have politicians who blatantly denigrate and degrade women then any campaign is not going to succeed very well. MEP says women are ‘smaller, weaker, less intelligent’ and should be paid less

 

[Steve]

I don't know whether the Mexican president denigrates and degrades women.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Do you honestly think we don't know? WE DO.

If women understand this then why do some of the woman not exercise preventive measures better?

 

[JowGaWolf]

Well no. Perhaps in your country, your movies and your culture. We grew up learning about fierce female icons such as Boudicca, Ethelfleda ( an amazing woman), Eleanor of Aquitaine,Emma de Gauder, Countess of Norfolk, Florence Nightingale, Edith Cavell, Queen Elizabeth the First ( and Second), even Queen Victoria, all the women during the First and Second World War and a lot more besides. Celtic and British history is full of strong women many of who were also warriors ( as is European history) There's also the Suffragettes who learnt jujitsu to help defend themselves. I could give you a huge rundown of female notables here who have influenced our life... American movies not so much.
Parents rarely encourage girls to be princesses here, we have to go out and work, we don't have the wherewithal to stay at home and be indolent. I was taught to box by my father at a very early age, this wasn't uncommon. The Judo club in London had female members from the late 1890s.
I believe we have very different influences to those in the USA where religion seems a far larger part of society than it does here. Much of the nonsense about rape, women and sexuality seems to be coming from certain church leaders, who seem to be mired in the idea of females being sexually dangerous to men.

It would be nice if more women here had that exposure. From what I can tell women in their 20's are more likely to have those experiences than those who are 30 and older.
You have had an exposure that many women in their 30's and older didn't have here. To put some perspective on it, the U.S. still has a lot of resistance to a female president and for Americans it would be a big historical thing for the country. The U.S. is ahead in some areas, but this isn't one of them.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Clothes and looks don't matter.

Clothes and looks do matter and they affect how people behave around you. One of the first assumptions that all of us usually make from time to time, is based on how a person dresses, then on how the person behaves or speaks. Usually the second part is what we do to verify the first assumption about how a person looks.

If clothing and looks didn't matter then people would spend so much time trying to look good. How many of us have dressed to give off a certain appearance? Have you been to an job interview before? It's the same thing. Clothing and looks matter. Even on a biological scale of skin color, to some people the color of the skin matters. We can up date the "clothing and looks matter" Are Muslims treated differently by non-muslims based on how they dress and look?

If the importance of clothing and/ or looks matter to everyone in the world, then why would a rapist be exempt for it. The problem is that just like some men like skinny men women, some men like fat women, and some men like men or boys, we don't know what if the clothing is going to be a trigger or if a person's size, or ethnicity is going to be the trigger, or if the person looks vulnerable is going to be the trigger. Each criminal is different but the one thing that stands out, is that the criminal picked a certain person to victimized and didn't pick the others that he could have. In the case of a serial criminal, that criminal has a long list and often plans his or her attack on the victim. Be it a stranger attacking or a friend drugging their friend and taking advantage of them in that way.

The only place it doesn't matter is in the creating or not creating a rapist. A rapist is a rapist regardless. A criminal is a criminal regardless.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Most women do, if you think the things you hear are bad you want to hear stuff that is said to women when other men aren't listening.

I don't know what women say when other men aren't around, but I wouldn't expect it to be less than what the men say. If men can have dark and sick conversations then I don't see why women wouldn't be able to have them. I know it's not all men and women, and that some of the stuff is probably unacceptable where the "skin crawls" when you hear it and it makes you want to say to people, You need to go get help.

As a teen I remember guy talking about how he would force himself onto girls and that stuff was so wild that I didn't know if it was true or if he was being stupid in trying to hide his virginity. I literally didn't know what to do with that information other than change the conversation and walk away.

 

[CB Jones]

I actually used to work rape cases and I can tell you with 100% certainty clothes do not matter.

Most rapes are a crime of opportunity not because of how someone is dressed.

Except for the real deviants that cruise for specific victims and typically their triggers are hair color, body type, race, height, etc... not what the victims are wearing.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I actually used to work rape cases and I can tell you with 100% certainty clothes do not matter.

Most rapes are a crime of opportunity not because of how someone is dressed.

Except for the real deviants that cruise for specific victims and typically their triggers are hair color, body type, race, height, etc... not what the victims are wearing.

Hair color, body type, race, height ? You do realize that those are some of the same things that regular guys look for too. I don't know if you could find a man or a woman that wouldn't find those characteristics important in selecting a husband, wife, girlfriend, or boyfriend.

 

[Tez3]

If women understand this then why do some of the woman not exercise preventive measures better?

So it's women's fault and the argument is that men can't help themselves?

The problem is that just like some men like skinny men women, some men like fat women, and some men like men or boys, we don't know what if the clothing is going to be a trigger or if a person's size, or ethnicity is going to be the trigger, or if the person looks vulnerable is going to be the trigger. Each criminal is different but the one thing that stands out, is that the criminal picked a certain person to victimized and didn't pick the others that he could have.

Rape isn't about sex as we've said. it isn't about having sex with a man/women of a particular type, it's about forcing yourself on someone to gain power over them, to make them feel small and weak while the rapist feels powerful.

I don't know what women say when other men aren't around, but I wouldn't expect it to be less than what the men say.

You have misunderstood this, it's what some men say to women when other people aren't around.


I think you have to understand that it's not 'men' per se, it's some men who think and treat women like this just as it's some women who are complete and utter bitches. It's the people's personalities that make them like this not their gender. The majority of men don't rape, they don't treat women badly. You seem to think that men can't help themselves, well of course they can and as I keep saying this isn't about sex, about men unable to control their 'urges' as the Victorians would have said.

Hair color, body type, race, height ? You do realize that those are some of the same things that regular guys look for too. I don't know if you could find a man or a woman that wouldn't find those characteristics important in selecting a husband, wife, girlfriend, or boyfriend.

Again this isn't really how rapists look for victims ( apart from as CB has said the deviants but then we are into a whole different subject), they, like muggers, look for vulnerability, someone they can victimise hence targeting victims who are drunk quite often. it's about opportunity and self justification, 'well she was asking for it' something other people also think. Marked for Mayhem
This of course is in the 'stranger' attacks, as most rapes aren't done by strangers at all then the victim profile is different but it isn't about preferring a single type of woman to have sex with, when the rapist attacks his victim he isn't haven't sex with them he is exercising his power over them, he is making them pay for all the things wrong in his life, that he's got his own back on those who have done something he see as against him, he comes out of the rape feeling powerful and in the right, he hasn't done anything wrong in his eyes, just made his world feel right.

 

[CB Jones]

Hair color, body type, race, height ? You do realize that those are some of the same things that regular guys look for too. I don't know if you could find a man or a woman that wouldn't find those characteristics important in selecting a husband, wife, girlfriend, or boyfriend.

Difference is you are simply attracted to those traits.

The deviant is not necessarily attracted to that trait.... fact is he might even hate that trait.

The deviant is looking for a specific set of traits that allow the victim to fulfill his crazy fantasy.

Rape to the crazed deviants isn't about sex...it's about power, violence, hate, sadism, etc...

Typically when rapist motives are purely sex they will focus on just the opportunity and less on the victim.

 

[JowGaWolf]

So it's women's fault and the argument is that men can't help themselves?

That's not my argument. Far from it. This isn't a blame game because it's clear who is in the wrong. When a man rapes another person he is doing it because he wants to or feels the need to. end of analysis. Unless rape is one of the symptoms of tourettes, then he's doing it because he wants to or feels he needs to. No one in this world should ever base their safety on their assumption about what "self-control people have," "don't have," or "should have."

In my opinion self-defense and awareness should always be carried out in the context of risk in the environment and the person's ability and capabilities to defend themselves. This is not a gender based perception of self-defense to me.

You have misunderstood this, it's what some men say to women when other people aren't around.

oh what I was referring to is the predatory language that men use when women aren't around. Things that they say as part of their "guy talk." with their friends or peers. If the man doesn't think his male peers shares the same view point then he won't use predatory language. If the male is big on showing off his masculinity then he'll use predatory language even if he knows his male peers disapprove. We recently had a high profile example of this in the U.S. The sad part is that is not the worst of that type of talk.

As for what men say to women when no one else is around. I wouldn't be shocked because in my 20's I had more female friends than male friends and they used to tell me all of those stories of what happened to him. Let's just say I was the guy that was willing to listen to everyone.

I'm also aware that some guys get turned down for "being to nice" and they get to watch the "bad and rude boys" have the girl. This frustrations often gets morphed into, "If that what women like then that's what I'm going to do to them." I had a couple of conversations with guys like that where I spoke out against it and tried to pull them away from going down that path. Sometimes it worked and other times the guy went down the dark path of being rude to women. I personally don't know how far those guys took it, so I'm say one way or the if what it lead to.

 

[Tez3]

oh what I was referring to is the predatory language that men use when women aren't around. Things that they say as part of their "guy talk." with their friends or peers. If the man doesn't think his male peers shares the same view point then he won't use predatory language. If the male is big on showing off his masculinity then he'll use predatory language even if he knows his male peers disapprove. We recently had a high profile example of this in the U.S. The sad part is that is not the worst of that type of talk.

I know and what I was referring to was what men say to women when no one else is around.
We, well, everyone around the world knows of this example sadly. I think though that men who do this don't actually understand that it doesn't show off how masculine they are, quite the opposite, they may think it's big man talk but it's actually looked at as 'those who talk can't do'. I don't think they realise how much it makes most people laugh at them.

 

[hoshin1600]

Rape isn't about sex as we've said. it isn't about having sex with a man/women of a particular type, it's about forcing yourself on someone to gain power over them, to make them feel small and weak while the rapist feels powerful.

i would like to add a few things on this. in the US back in the 1960 it was believed that a lack of sex and affection was the driving force behind rape. " its because the woman at home was not doing her womanly duties"
this was the prevelant view. how ever studies by Dr. Groth and others here in my home state of Massachusetts. on sexual preditors found this was not the case at all. that there is an underlying fusion between sex and power. so i often hear that rape is about power not sex. well it is more nuanced than that. to use the blanket statement is not 100% correct. the statement should be used for the proper argument and sometimes it is used as an argue point in the wrong context.

Rape is a crime of opportunity and sexual deviancy.

this is not 100 % accurate either. again rape is a complex subject and any statement will sometimes be correct and sometimes be wrong.

TEZ,
i do think rape is a very complex subject. its a very big pie of a problem. however you cant blame us for talking about the punches and kicks. we are only martial artists and that is why we are here on a martial arts forum. we are only qualified to discuss this one very small slice of a very complex pie. while is may be a worthy subject on something like how cosmopolitan magazine portrays women in a womens magazine and they still by that thing....that is not our line of specialty.
please give us some slack.

 

[Tez3]

so i often hear that rape is about power not sex. well it is more nuanced than that. to use the blanket statement is not 100% correct. the statement should be used for the proper argument and sometimes it is used as an argue point in the wrong context.

Unfortunately, as you point out we are not in a position to discuss in too great a depth here without it becoming a technical discussion, so it wasn't a 100% blanket statement more of a general one to give an idea of the subject.

i do think rape is a very complex subject. its a very big pie of a problem. however you cant blame us for talking about the punches and kicks. we are only martial artists and that is why we are here on a martial arts forum. we are only qualified to discuss this one

To an extent I agree BUT and this is a very big BUT when martial artists are advertising complete systems of self defence which only consist of kicks and punches then we should be pointing out that there are more ways to defend yourself that them. When you have martial artists who think that all one has to do is fight your way out of an attack we have to say something. I'm not pointing or including anyone here in this by the way. As I've said before self defence for women is big business now, to a certain extent these places are spreading a certain amount of alarm with their advertising screaming how dangerous it is for women therefore you need the acme school of kickass fighting for women. We have places offering complete systems of self defence so that women 'never need worry again' etc then we have to discuss the wider implications of this and how it damages not just the women who 'train' there but all of us.