Scenario/Role play

[bydand]

Shesulsa,

If I am out of line I am truely sorry, and I will try to be better behaved in the future. :asian:

Thanks
Scott.

 

[Drac]

EXACTLY.

I AM a cop.
Domestics, especially, can turn very bad very, very fast. Especially if you stick your nose into the middle of it. Do you want the whole family that you're trying to "rescue" to decide they need to defend themselves against you?

You're preaching to the choir Brother...Most domestics are repeat offensives..The dispatch center KNOWS how many time we've been there and if there are weapons in the residence and what occured during the previous time officers respoonded.. ( the MA wanna-be-hero nest door didn't think about that)..Plus better than 75% of those involved in a domestic altercation have active warrants and KNOW IT..You think they are just going to go easy???

Should I mention the use of drug or alcohol??? We arrested a skinny 19 year old last month who was so jacked up from "wet" cigarettes that he fought 2 of the arresting officers..Imagine attempting to grab a bigger suspect...

 

[exile]

You're preaching to the choir Brother...Most domestics are repeat offensives..The dispatch center KNOWS how many time we've been there and if there are weapons in the residence and what occured during the previous time officers respoonded.. ( the MA wanna-be-hero nest door didn't think about that)..Plus better than 75% of those involved in a domestic altercation have active warrants and KNOW IT..You think they are just going to go easy???

Should I mention the use of drug or alcohol??? We arrested a skinny 19 year old last month who was so jacked up from "wet" cigarettes that he fought 2 of the arresting officers..Imagine attempting to grab a bigger suspect...

The whole discussion in this thread so far is a local illustration of a global problem—the vast gulf between reality on the one hand and media consumers' ideas about reality on the other. We've reached a point the the development of our information technology when (1) a vast number of people have access to infotainment media, and (2) that media present an often totally and grotesquely unrealistic picture of the world, having nothing to do with the detailed experience of the relative small fraction of the population who know anything about how things actually work. Most people have no idea what can happen in the course of a domestic—me included, which is why I am happy to leave domestic interventions to those who know something about them. The problem is that many people [/I]think[/I] they know something about them because they have images of them—images dreamed up and delivered by only marginally accurate `cop show' writers and producers, or movies, or other fiction. A lot of people similarly are probably under the impression that they know what actually happens in a hospital emergency room, because of ER...

There is a stock response to this complaint I've seen before: c'mon, lighten up, people know the difference between fantasy/fiction and reality. Well, I think the evidence is that they don't. Sometime in the 1970s, a Canadian newspaper conducted a survey among its readers (only responses listing a residence in Canada counted) asking them whether, in a very loaded and ominous legal situation in a Canadian, they would plead the Fifth Amendment (from a lawyer's point of view by far the safer choice, the way the case was set up). The overwhelming majority of the respondents insisted that in that situation, of course they would plead the Fifth. The paper then interviewed a sample of respondents, in the alleged interest of getting them to expand on the reasons for their choice. These people were virtually all Canadian citizens, living in Canada, and happily under the impression that they could plead the Fifth Amendment to the U.S. constitution. It emerged that their conception of their legal rights was heavily influenced by what they'd seen on law programs, from Perry Mason to Law and Order, and a huge variety of cop shows—all set and produced in the U.S., of course. This is just one a vast number of indicators I've run across that people really have no clue as to what's going on outside that small part of life that they have some first-hand competence in...

A lot of the time, no harm done—maybe just a bit of embarrassent. But anyone who's read this thread and taken in what the LEOs and security people have been saying should, assuming they're playing with a full deck, realize that mostly your intervention in a domestic will very likely make things worse for everyone, especially you. The more general point that it's probably a serious mistake to hold very strong views and attitudes about situations which you don't know anything about and have never had to deal with on a regular basis...

 

[jks9199]

Yes Troll, I remember these. They were dealing with nothing like the scenario you put forth, so they are totally out of context for this discussion. You did a horrible job quoting them so it makes it difficult to read, but as one of those who wrote some of the posts, I would ask you to sit back and really re-read the thread you pulled these from.

He did a fantastic job if his goal was to show the dangers of quoting out of context, because a few of those quotes were mine. While that discussion did indeed have the theme of whether or not to get involved and come to someone's defense -- he's managed to find things that he feels support his view (and he still got quite a few that stressed that DIRECT intervention wasn't necessarily the smartest thing to do), yank them out, and paste them in a riff that can be said to distort the discussion.

Maybe he's a reporter in "real" life?:wink1:

 

[Tez3]

"There is a stock response to this complaint I've seen before: c'mon, lighten up, people know the difference between fantasy/fiction and reality. Well, I think the evidence is that they don't."

I think is is so true! We have long running soap operas here which are very popular, most of us know that it's fiction! The TV companies however regularly receive job applications to work in the shops/pubs/businesses when a fictional character says theres a vacancy. One actress tells the story of when her fictional husband was having an affair on screen people would come up to her in the street to warn her what her 'husband' was up to despite her being with her real husband and children, they were just ignored! Another Australian actress had to actually leave the soap she was in as she received so much hatemail and aggression when she was out it was causing her too much stress.That's extremely sad and an indictment of the power of the 'box'.
A willingness to put yourself into danger to help others is to be commended but and it's a huge but, you must do the best thing for everyone, in the scenerio given the best thing is to call the police. ("you" is not aimed at anyone in particular btw)

 

[exile]

"There is a stock response to this complaint I've seen before: c'mon, lighten up, people know the difference between fantasy/fiction and reality. Well, I think the evidence is that they don't."

I think is is so true! We have long running soap operas here which are very popular, most of us know that it's fiction! The TV companies however regularly receive job applications to work in the shops/pubs/businesses when a fictional character says theres a vacancy. One actress tells the story of when her fictional husband was having an affair on screen people would come up to her in the street to warn her what her 'husband' was up to despite her being with her real husband and children, they were just ignored! Another Australian actress had to actually leave the soap she was in as she received so much hatemail and aggression when she was out it was causing her too much stress.That's extremely sad and an indictment of the power of the 'box'.

Perfect example, Tez. A lot of times, emotional intensity seems to trump people's sense—which more and more I'm coming to think of as quite fragile—of the difference between truth and fiction. This is espcially true in the kind of case you bring up, where many people have intense emotional investments in the storyline—every year there are a number of suicide attempts that turn out to have been triggered by something on some soap opera or other which proved overwhelming to the people who made those attempts, to the point where it had the same status in their minds as something which had happened to them in real life. In a sense, for each of those people, the soap had become real life....

A willingness to put yourself into danger to help others is to be commended but and it's a huge but, you must do the best thing for everyone, in the scenerio given the best thing is to call the police. ("you" is not aimed at anyone in particular btw)

A thousand times yes... what has impressed me in this discussion is the evident sincerity of our LEOs in telling us, in effect, `Please stay out of the way!' Our job is to notify them, and then do just that...

 

[jks9199]

You're preaching to the choir Brother...Most domestics are repeat offensives..The dispatch center KNOWS how many time we've been there and if there are weapons in the residence and what occured during the previous time officers respoonded.. ( the MA wanna-be-hero nest door didn't think about that)..Plus better than 75% of those involved in a domestic altercation have active warrants and KNOW IT..You think they are just going to go easy???

Should I mention the use of drug or alcohol??? We arrested a skinny 19 year old last month who was so jacked up from "wet" cigarettes that he fought 2 of the arresting officers..Imagine attempting to grab a bigger suspect...

Been there, too...

One of the closest times I've come to shooting someone was a domestic last Christmas season... It was only a verbal argument (or at least we had no evidence of physical attack), but as I'm interviewing the guy to see what happened, he started to get pissed and antsy, and didn't understand why I was reluctant to let him go into his kitchen with all its knives to get a drink of water... We got lucky, and my partner (a veteran officer on his second cop career, and old enough to have that father-figure effect on the guy) calmed him down -- but neither of us were sure that someone wasn't going to die that day.

On-lookers, take note -- this was a VERBAL argument for the couple that almost became physical when someone intervened. We got the situation handled by virtue of experience and training, which most civilians lack, and some dumb luck. If one of the other guys on my squad had been there that day... I know somebody would have been badly hurt or killed.

 

[Tez3]

The thing about this scenario too is that the neighbours could be perfectly decent people without police records or a history of violence. It could simply be an argument with a teenage boy going through a difficult time. Again in this situation having someone bursting in on them intent on doling out justice would be disastrous. Again the police are the best people to call as they are well able to recognise and distinguish between criminal behaviour and a family who are having a hard time with a teen.

 

[bydand]

From the Ludington Daily News. Ludington, MI (ludingtondailynews.com) This week-end.

Goes along with this thread. Leave it to the Police! If you barged into this situation without the proper training and experiance there would be 3 people being treated for wounds.

Baldwin man in jail after Idlewild stabbing
Reporter: Joe Boomgaard

YATES TWP. — A Baldwin man is in Lake County Jail today charged with attempted murder after a stabbing at 11:19 p.m. Friday in Idlewild, a Lake County Sheriff’s report stated.

Deputies and Life EMS were called to a residence at 7035 South Lake Drive in Idlewild for a report of a possible double stabbing and found a 44-year-old Baldwin woman with a five-inch cut on the right side of her neck, according to the report. She was transported to Spectrum North in Reed City and was later taken to Spectrum Health, Butterworth Campus, in Grand Rapids, the report stated. Police believe she will be released from the hospital on Sunday.

Deputies found a 48-year-old Baldwin man in the residence with a minor stab wound to the chest area. He was transported to Spectrum North, where he was treated and released to police custody.

The sheriff’s office is charging the man with aggravated domestic felonious assault — attempted murder. He is expected to be arraigned Monday.

"aggravated domestic felonious assault - attempted murder" doesn't start out at that level, but that is the level this "domestic dispute" ended at. A well-intentioned, but wrong neighbor would have just made it even harder for the follow-up investigation.

 

[stabpunch]

ok guys cool down sheesh. This thread was started as a hypothetical scenario. yes i am young in martial arts. no i am not law enforcement, although the people in the security industry are very keen to have me join their team, i would prefer to work offshore.

Now the fact that most of you guys are from the US it is constituional your right to bear arms. Here in sunny oz you are more likely to get taken by a shark, croc or someother nasty natural threat. 13% of robberies are done with a knife and 7% a fire arm, that's from our National bureau of statistics.

Ok you're right in that situation call the police, it is the advice i'd give to anyone it's sensible. I have called the police to next door previously it didn't provide the magic wand solution that i would have expected. Things from this thread i have learned or didn't think about is the record keeping and formal proceedures in place. Although i still feel that in some cases a uniform can cause problems, in this case the people are of indigenous decent, this means they are aboriginal australians, for whom the law do not get along with so well there is usually a lack of respect between the two parties.

However... This was a fictional scenario to generate ideas for a reality based situation. No i didn't want to hear about calling the police, that isn't martial it's marshall. Communication, environment, surpirse factors.. How many reality based martial applications are available in the given scenario are boundless depending your thought process and mindset.

Finally as this is way out of hand. Many of you believing that i am some rampant vigilante with a god complex and god forbid my underwear on the outside. Let me explain the following...

YES. I did attend a situation that fits this scenario. Although i didn't run in there with my forty inch biceps pumped ready to rumble it out and make examples as i am not the SUPERhero brain dead martial artist you are trying to incinuate. Anyway.
My neighbour 'Jack' had been drinking his sons were there, they were arguing. Not wanting to call the police for my own personal reasons i decided to investigate. I took pepper spray and my mobile(cell) phone funnily enough with the police number already qued up. Now on arriving i was met by his fourteen year old son who i didn't know. I asked if Jack was in, the boy was shocked as he expected me to be off my brain about the yelling. Jack came out, he hugged me and was crying, now for those of you who mixed it up the son was the one that hit the dad. I sat Jack down and asked him what was going on, removing him from the situation. He made the complaints to me of his sons activities and was particualrly distressed of the state of the room where they hang out with their mates. I investigated the room and one of the sons friends came up, not taking his side i mentioned that it looked in a reasonable condition. There was graffiti canvases in the room, i mentioned that i used to write as a youngster and he wanted to show me their books, next time i say. The son eventually comes out of the house as his mum had arrived, he asked me to talk to Jack saying he was drunk, to which i agreed and told him the best bet was to call back tomorrow and talk to his dad when they were both sober.. So I was lucky, i know this!
Trouble is all i wanted to establish was other factors present in this scenario... I have learned two things, the record keeping of the police and the fact that the family will band together. What no-one was willing to do when this was fictitional was present any actual martial mindsets other than call the police, which is just common sense and not necessarily what i'd call martial mindset.
I am tired of threads called multiple attackers or judo v karate, i was just trying to present an interesting scenario, next time i'll tone the scenario down so that we talk martial.
Seeya there

 

[Tez3]

I think when someone presents a hypothetical situation to the forum they will get the best advice people can give which in this case was call the police. If specific martial arts advice is sought, a situation should be presented that would/could be solved by using martial arts. Posting up a hypothetical situation then explaining it was actually real, having been dealt with already and all the advice was unnecessary and to a large part unwanted is just really playing people along. I don't think anyone here misread the post and we did understand that it had been the teen hitting the father.
I have a friend who's a police officer in Australia, they are armed out there as in America. Funnily enough he's never seen a shark or a crocodile.

 

[Drac]

no i am not law enforcement, although the people in the security industry are very keen to have me join their team

Yes you have that rent-a cop mentality

i would prefer to work offshore

Go where the money is..Hell I would

Although i still feel that in some cases a uniform can cause problems

Not a BIG a problem as a well meaning neighbor rushing in

How many reality based martial applications are available in the given scenario are boundless depending your thought process and mindset

How many??? I couldn't count them..I have been an MA for 30 years and a cop for 20..You learn an application or 2 during those years...

So I was lucky, i know this!

Yes you were...

What no-one was willing to do when this was fictitional was present any actual martial mindsets other than call the police, which is just common sense and not necessarily what i'd call martial mindset.

MA mindset?? STAY ALIVE and out of COURT...

 

[Blotan Hunka]

Ive always thought that MA was about "self" defense or defense of others in extreme need. The key being "defense" as in you actually see someone getting beaten or you have to act or someone is going to be hurt. In this scenario you dont see someone getting attacked, you dont even hear someone screaming for help. In this scenario you are going to investigate and see whats going on. Thats entirely a police officers job, not a "martial artists".

 

[Drac]

Ive always thought that MA was about "self" defense or defense of others in extreme need. The key being "defense" as in you actually see someone getting beaten or you have to act or someone is going to be hurt. In this scenario you dont see someone getting attacked, you dont even hear someone screaming for help. In this scenario you are going to investigate and see whats going on. Thats entirely a police officers job, not a "martial artists".

Thank you...

 

[stabpunch]

When i started this thread i had no idea it would go this far. I am still of the stance that if you are in a position to help then you should do so. last night i was a witness to another domestic situation.

I can't find the post in this thread, i recall someone mentioning that they were standing there with the guy yelling at them still on the fone to the police. This to me was the most helpful post in this thread. As you know i will get close to the fire in order to establish the extent of the situation at hand, i feel it is important that prior to involving the police you need to understand what is happening. Again it is just me here. So to get close enough to the situation to asses it i made out as if i was going for my mail, phone in hand the intention of report rather than becoming involved. Again it was a non-event that subsided by itself.

So the tool for my mindset which i have gained from this thread is to take that confidence and use it to get close to the fire, go towards it as it were, inorder to report rather than respond. Yes Drac has a point i do run the rent a cop mentality. It's not that extreme unfortunatly my personality dictates that if i have the ability to help that i must use my ability to do so.

I will continue to aproach the fire as close as my personal confidence will allow. However i now have a greater understanding to a general report rather than respond pattern.

When i started this thread i wasn't looking for advice perse. I was looking for input and ideas, maybe different to the ones i already know. In trying to direct the thread away from the immediate call the police response which is reasonable and sensible advice, i have offended participants of the thread for which i apologise.

This has been more valuable an experience to me than i could have gained from my original attempt of insight. Now i have a concept to include into our sylabus. Amongst the drilling and sparring and scenario situations i will be looking to include with my instructors help a component that deals with reporting to the police. Hopefully this will benefit my fellow students.

I am not however retreating from my position. If i was in a situation i would like someone to help me and not take the 'stay out of it' mentality.

The choice to report or respond is the individuals and is determined by their skill set and the conflict they are faced with.

 

[Blotan Hunka]

If you are teaching other people that you are doing them a great disservice.

 

[Kacey]

So the tool for my mindset which i have gained from this thread is to take that confidence and use it to get close to the fire, go towards it as it were, inorder to report rather than respond. Yes Drac has a point i do run the rent a cop mentality. It's not that extreme unfortunatly my personality dictates that if i have the ability to help that i must use my ability to do so.

Then you have learned nothing from the responses you have received, and will continue to put yourself in danger, and risk escalation of the situation by your untrained intrusion into delicate situations.

I will continue to aproach the fire as close as my personal confidence will allow. However i now have a greater understanding to a general report rather than respond pattern.

I am not however retreating from my position. If i was in a situation i would like someone to help me and not take the 'stay out of it' mentality.

The choice to report or respond is the individuals and is determined by their skill set and the conflict they are faced with.

If you do not take the advice of the several LEOs who have responded in this thread, as it appears you will not be doing, then you have no one but yourself to blame when your choices go awry, as they are quite likely to do. Simply because you would "like someone to help me and not take the 'stay out of it' mentality" does not make it the right choice for other persons in other situations. If you teach others this mistaken mindset, then you make yourself responsible for their injuries - which are quite likely to occur. You, and most especially they, have my condolences for the injuries that are quite likely to occur in the future.

 

[jks9199]

ok guys cool down sheesh. This thread was started as a hypothetical scenario. yes i am young in martial arts. no i am not law enforcement, although the people in the security industry are very keen to have me join their team, i would prefer to work offshore.

Your hypothetical scenario started with an erroneous and unwise action. You got advice that wasn't. Sorry it didn't match your ideal... Oh... and if you decide to go into "the security industry" -- I strongly urge you to understand your role and authority. I just finished a prosecution of a guard who didn't understand he wasn't a cop...

Now the fact that most of you guys are from the US it is constituional your right to bear arms. Here in sunny oz you are more likely to get taken by a shark, croc or someother nasty natural threat. 13% of robberies are done with a knife and 7% a fire arm, that's from our National bureau of statistics.

What does this have to do with the scenario you presented? The simple truth is that gun laws only affect the law abiding, whatever the US Constitution may say. Or I wouldn't find so many illegal aliens and convicted felons with guns...

Ok you're right in that situation call the police, it is the advice i'd give to anyone it's sensible. I have called the police to next door previously it didn't provide the magic wand solution that i would have expected. Things from this thread i have learned or didn't think about is the record keeping and formal proceedures in place.

Gee... You mean there might actually be a reason to let the people with all the tools and training handle problems? Who'dve thunk it?:idunno:

Although i still feel that in some cases a uniform can cause problems, in this case the people are of indigenous decent, this means they are aboriginal australians, for whom the law do not get along with so well there is usually a lack of respect between the two parties.

There are lots of folks in every nation who don't get along with the police, and there are plenty of times that the fault lies on both sides of the equation. All the same -- there's a reason for calling the cops in many situations rather than trying to handle it yourself. You're worried about repercussions if the cops come; isn't it kind of possible that there'd be repercussions for sticking your nose into their business?

However... This was a fictional scenario to generate ideas for a reality based situation.

Again -- you started from a faulty premise, choosing a course of action. Maybe it would have come across differently if you'd said something to the effect that your neighbors are fighting, and you stupidly get involved; what do you do now. But that's not the route you chose. And then you began to argue with people who do know better, instead of acknowledging the faulty premise. Maybe that could have been handled better, huh? :idea: Think all but openly challenging the manhood of anyone who wouldn't butt into the situation just maybe could cause a problem?

No i didn't want to hear about calling the police, that isn't martial it's marshall. Communication, environment, surpirse factors.. How many reality based martial applications are available in the given scenario are boundless depending your thought process and mindset.

Martial arts is a many-fold path. Only some of them involve directly confronting other people's problems. And, of those that do, one of the primary rules is generally to know when to intervene. Perhaps your familiar with Sun Tsu? "He will win who knows when to fight and when not to fight."

Finally as this is way out of hand. Many of you believing that i am some rampant vigilante with a god complex and god forbid my underwear on the outside. Let me explain the following...

Bud -- that's the image you painted of yourself, in this thread and in others. Your stubborn argument (which you seem to be maintaining) that you didn't care about calling the police, and that apparently anyone who wouldn't handle something like this on their own created that impression. And, quite frankly, I'm still not convinced that there's not some truth to it.

YES. I did attend a situation that fits this scenario. Although i didn't run in there with my forty inch biceps pumped ready to rumble it out and make examples as i am not the SUPERhero brain dead martial artist you are trying to incinuate. Anyway.
My neighbour 'Jack' had been drinking his sons were there, they were arguing. Not wanting to call the police for my own personal reasons i decided to investigate. I took pepper spray and my mobile(cell) phone funnily enough with the police number already qued up. Now on arriving i was met by his fourteen year old son who i didn't know. I asked if Jack was in, the boy was shocked as he expected me to be off my brain about the yelling. Jack came out, he hugged me and was crying, now for those of you who mixed it up the son was the one that hit the dad. I sat Jack down and asked him what was going on, removing him from the situation. He made the complaints to me of his sons activities and was particualrly distressed of the state of the room where they hang out with their mates. I investigated the room and one of the sons friends came up, not taking his side i mentioned that it looked in a reasonable condition. There was graffiti canvases in the room, i mentioned that i used to write as a youngster and he wanted to show me their books, next time i say. The son eventually comes out of the house as his mum had arrived, he asked me to talk to Jack saying he was drunk, to which i agreed and told him the best bet was to call back tomorrow and talk to his dad when they were both sober.. So I was lucky, i know this!
Trouble is all i wanted to establish was other factors present in this scenario... I have learned two things, the record keeping of the police and the fact that the family will band together. What no-one was willing to do when this was fictitional was present any actual martial mindsets other than call the police, which is just common sense and not necessarily what i'd call martial mindset.
I am tired of threads called multiple attackers or judo v karate, i was just trying to present an interesting scenario, next time i'll tone the scenario down so that we talk martial.
Seeya there

You wanted to establish "factors", but you didn't explain or discuss them. You wanted to pose a realistic situation -- but you didn't feel like accepting realistic advice. Then you went hunting for "support" that was out of context in other threads. You got lucky when you stuck your nose into something; it could very, very easily have ended very, very differently. And, in case you're wondering, I'm acquainted with cops from around the world. Domestics are one of the most similar events you'll find...

You talk about martial mindsets; perhaps you'd care to explain what you mean by that? Are you at all familiar with Forest Morgan's book Living the Martial Way? Might I suggest adding that to your reading list, along with some of David Grossman's books and research? (http://killology.com) You want to talk about communication strategies; which ones? Do you know what Verbal Judo is? Or whether it can work?

You might find that you're not as knowledgable or prepared as you think you are.

 

[stabpunch]

If you are teaching other people that you are doing them a great disservice.

that is one opinion

 

[jks9199]

So the tool for my mindset which i have gained from this thread is to take that confidence and use it to get close to the fire, go towards it as it were, inorder to report rather than respond. Yes Drac has a point i do run the rent a cop mentality. It's not that extreme unfortunatly my personality dictates that if i have the ability to help that i must use my ability to do so.

I will continue to aproach the fire as close as my personal confidence will allow. However i now have a greater understanding to a general report rather than respond pattern.

You just don't get it...

When i started this thread i wasn't looking for advice perse. I was looking for input and ideas, maybe different to the ones i already know. In trying to direct the thread away from the immediate call the police response which is reasonable and sensible advice, i have offended participants of the thread for which i apologise.

This has been more valuable an experience to me than i could have gained from my original attempt of insight. Now i have a concept to include into our sylabus. Amongst the drilling and sparring and scenario situations i will be looking to include with my instructors help a component that deals with reporting to the police. Hopefully this will benefit my fellow students.

I am not however retreating from my position. If i was in a situation i would like someone to help me and not take the 'stay out of it' mentality.

The choice to report or respond is the individuals and is determined by their skill set and the conflict they are faced with.

You just don't get it...

My best advice to you now? Get yourself a good lawyer on retention. It sure sounds like you'll need him. In fact, you'll probably need two. One for the civil stuff, and one for the criminal. Start saving now; I was recently told a SUCCESSFUL lawsuit based on a good case can easily run over half a million dollars here in the US.