Sanchin kata for slicing and dicing

[JWLuiza]

John,

While I understand your points, and yes I've seen the 4 on one video, it depends on where you're standing. One person can see them and see the similarities, another will watch them and see the differences (which I guess is where I am).

Without outstanding documentation and/or seeing a Chinese version which really parallels what Okinawa's is I prefer to to remain a 'Doubting Thomas' on the issue.

For one thing I don't think to do good Sanchin of any type of practice you have to have anything to do with the White Crane. If you do and it helps you put on your hat, great to you too.

For example while I've been doing Isshinryu for 35 years I've also been doing Yang Tai Chi Chaun for 30 years. Yes the Yang does re-inforce my personal Isshinryu, but most of my students do not practice Tai Chi and their Isshinryu is fine on it's own, as are others who don't to tai chi too.

Until the day I see stronger proof I'll remain a skeptic, BUT in no case should my choices influcence anyone from making their own decisions.

It's what makes the world an interesting place after all.

PS. While the historical discussion is interesting what really fuels my fires is how to apply technique. Consider I am of the opinion Sanchin is a superior way to enter someone who boxes. Now can you figure out why I state that, from a tacitical point of view. There's an interesting topic.

Is your position that they have no relationship at all?

 

[Victor Smith]

Is your position that they have no relationship at all?

From my perspective it remains a question.

 

[chinto]

Is your position that they have no relationship at all?

From my perspective it remains a question.

I would think that there is some relationship between them, as to how close and how much in each direction could be questioned resonably.

My personal OPINON.. please note it is Opinion is that Kanryo Higaonna brought back the basic kata and either combined it with a version already tought in naha, or perhaps modified it slightly to what he wanted it to do. remember he was trained in 3 styles of chinese boxing / Chuan Fa. namely Ryu Ryo Ko, also Ru Ru Ko and Wai Shin Zan all styles from Fuchou provance of China.

So it makes sense that there was at least some influince on sanchin kata from these systems and provably from one of the several fuchou crane systems.

 

[Victor Smith]

I understand your logic, but time has made me extremely cynical about any of the sources we have to use to make our assumptions.

Too many texts are just copying something that was written in the past with no supporting proof, and in time too much remains hazy.

It's just the seniors did a superb job keeping their arts hidden and the origins shrouded in mystery, leaving just oral history.

In the end what difference does it make? I don't see White Crane stylists really wanting to learn karate, and I don't really see the Goju seniors really wanting to learn White Crane. The arts are different and will remain that way.

Keyboard wishing aside, how does anyone really prove anything? Who did what when, who did what where, how did something really happen.

We can look at what we have today and try to extrapolate what occured before, and while useful if we find a use for our studies, it makes little difference in the end.

Authenticity is simply my fist smashing through your face a the right time.

How does it ever get more authentic than that.

In fact the most documentation we have is what was created in Japan in the 20's-40's, when the Okinawan seniors (Funakoshi, Mabuni, Motobu and supporters like Nagaimine) went out of their way to document their arts by sharing material that had never been released before.

But that material was written for a special audience, the ruling Japanese Martial Arts establishment, pre-WWII, to show the historical roots and the technical value of the Okinwan arts. They were trying to be a player in the Japanese universe, to protect their homeland, friends, family and themselves by gaining credibility than just being a poor island Japan ruled.

Even what they shared, such as the Bubishi in Mabuni's 'Seipai No Kata' in 1934, was only for a historical link, not as proof of anything else.

We can interpret or read into their sharings as we will, but that doesn't constitute proof either.

So we have questions what the truth actually was? Is that really a problem. I was trained to work and make my art work and have always done so. I was never trained that I needed to add xyz to make it happen.

Through the sharing of many friends I did gain some understanding of what else is there.

In fact one friend an extremely knowledgable Chinese stylist with 40 years work in those arts has his own opinion where the Okinawan arts came from. He feels the energy release in Hsing Yi is closest to what karate represents.

Which is based on his own experience and observation, and you won't see anyone else looking in that direction to my best experience.

Belife is wonderful after all, for NOBODY should BELIEVE anything I say. They should make up their own mind.

pleasantly,

 

[chinto]

I was not there true, but I understand that there is no evedence that the training in china was not undertaken, and there are aparently some records that do indicate he went to china... I will except the goju folks history that he did study in china.. remember Higaonna tought Shorei ryu and not Goju.. that was Chojin Miyagi... I understand there was some slight changes made by Miyagi. I am not a Goju man so can not say for sure if there are changes or not between what Higaonna and Miyagi tought, but assuming that as the goju folks say that Higaonna had some karate training before he went to china I can see where that training might influince how he saw and interpeteted some of what he learned in china and therefore what became Shorei ryu. I would still submit that chinese influince on and maybe even partial origan of Sanchin kata seems resonable, perhaps not absolutely beyond doubt, but logical and resonable.

 

[seasoned]

You guys might want to check out this thread:

http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=54495&highlight=fukien+white+crane&page=2

In my post, #19, I posted links to some video clips of Fukien White Crane kung fu. The first link I posted was identified by another poster as Sanchin. Apparently this is the root form that was adapted into the Okinawan arts. Fukien White Crane had a lot of influence on the development of the Okinawan arts.

just thought you might like to see it...

I would definitely agree with you about Fukien white crane and it’s influence on the development of the Okinawan Arts. The bottom line of any Martial art is the development of power and the smooth transfer of that power into our techniques. The White Crane theory for moving hard qigong and Okinawan Sanchin draw a very convincing parallel. Sorry for the rant, but to understand Sanchin is to understand Okinawan GoJu.

 

[seasoned]

There are things that Sanchin teaches that are more important than any bunkai you may reach for or try to assign to the kata. Stance, toes and feet gripping the floor, hip position and movement, control of hara, breath control, and other things are its primary purpose. We do not do Sanchin, Tensho, and Seisan kata with the heavy tension breathing that many kai use. It is audible, but much lighter. The inhale is faster, as is the exhale. The hara is pushed forward more quickly. There is some rising and sinking, but not over done. Those ryu that do not practice Sanchin get the same principles from Naihanchi.

The dynamic tension argument is an old one. One of my senior students is a physician and he does not think the heavy tension is that good for you. We have never done it that way, so it doesn't matter. But, it is not necessary to do Sanchin that way to get the benefits.

First of all I think that cstanley came closes to my understanding of kata Sanchin. The kata is not a dynamic tension kata, but it is the most important kata in Okinawan GoJu. It is all about Breath control, structure, and movement. These are principles that apply to any and all Martial Arts and not just Okinawan GoJu. It just so happens Okinawan GoJu focuses more on it. Breath control, not breath restriction are key to high blood pressure. I have seen the eye popping demo’s with the red faces with so much muscle tightness that you trembled. This is not good and also not right. The breath should flow freely out of the mouth while the tip of the tongue touches the roof of the mouth. This kata is all about gaining the connection with the ground where our power comes from and transferring that connection and power through our body and out our hands. There are no kicks in Sanchin because the kata is not about techniques but it is all about connection and power transfer. This power transfer is accomplished with body alignment or structure accompanied with breath to produce power. If anyone has ever done a bench press you know what I am talking about. In pushing weight off your chest you need to combine your breath with good body form and the weight with move off you chest. Because movement is involved in self defense you now have to learn to combine the structure with the breath corresponding with balance and movement. In sanchin movement, the foot goes out makes contact with the ground and the body weight follows. These are the important aspects of Sanchin. It is one of the first kata taught for the above reason. Without it you will try to get your power from muscle only instead of good body mechanics and this is not what true power transfer is all about. In GoJu, which means hard/soft you are learning to apply power and also have speed. If you apply to much power you sacrifice speed if you apply to much speed you sacrifice power. If I may use the pun "float like a butterfly and sting like a bee" then this is what kata Sanchin is all about and what it is trying to teach. I have heard it called effortless power. With Sanchin as the base in Okinawan GoJu you now go on to apply these principles to all other kata. I know I am writing in a post that is over a month and a half old but it is never to late to add input, I hope. J Cheer
“Don’t show me a thousand techniques but show me a few principles I can apply within my techniques.” I don’t know who coined this saying but it makes good sense.

 

[Shinzen]

Nice information. I have practiced alot of Sanchin versions, and I concur, despite its simplicity of motion, Sanchin has a lot to offer. If you practice it...it will 'speak' to you. You will see self-defense applications that others miss. Keep up the good work.