Naihanchi Shodan Bunkai Exchange

[Kempojujutsu]

Theres a movement after the "down block and several "inward blocks" your hand is on the inside of your arm. Right at the elbow joint. Using the method of the leg coming up to the knee joint, would this be the same idea. that you are striking the elbow joint to bring the attacker closer for the next strike. Which seems to be done as a upper cut or rising strike.
Bob :asian:

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Kempojujutsu

Theres a movement after the "down block and several "inward blocks" your hand is on the inside of your arm. Right at the elbow joint. Using the method of the leg coming up to the knee joint, would this be the same idea. that you are striking the elbow joint to bring the attacker closer for the next strike. Which seems to be done as a upper cut or rising strike.
Bob :asian:

I am not exactly sure of the move you mean but if it is the one I am thinking of it can be a choke as well.

 

[Kempojujutsu]

After you do the elbow. It goes down block, then a short punch across. That hand goes up then you punch down with the other hand. The hands then switch postions. The one hand is place on the elbow followed by a rising strike. I hope this is clear, again talking on the internet any thing could be misinterped.
Bob:asian:

 

[RyuShiKan]

If you go to this site and look at the mpeg http://www.shorinryu.dk/html/indexe.htm

Maybe you can tell me where it is by looking at the seconds clock on your mpeg player.

 

[Sensei Mike]

KempoJuJitsu stated: Naihanchi... was used to fight in a hall way or very tight area.

I read somewhere an interesting idea. In China, narrow walkbridges were hung across deep valleys and gorges, and the side-to-side movements were designed, in part to deal with the narrow bridge. You don't have to worry about someone behind you, as the rope of the bridge is all that is there. It also implies that when at attack occurs, you need to go forward on an angle to engage.

No way to prove one theory or the other, since there is such limited documentation on the origins of these kata. But this is an intriguing idea.

 

[Sensei Mike]

KempoJuJitsu stated:
Theres a movement after the "down block and several "inward blocks" your hand is on the inside of your arm. Right at the elbow joint. Using the method

Naihanchi is so rich in application, there are lots of potential applications at the point you mention above.

I see from your profile that you have a grappling background. So instead of trying to describe one against a standing opponent, I will give you something you can probably readily relate to.

Some preliminaries.

Each sweeping kick is followed by a big turn of the torso, but the arms basically don't move in relation to the torso. And the hips stay relatively in place. The shoulders rotate way further than the hips. This is not obvious in all systems, but it is clear in the Matsubayashi videos that RyuShiKan has provided a link for. Shotokan, also has a big movement.

One of my students trained previously in a Shotokan dojo that had a wonderful exercise for improving this turn of the torso. Two students would line up in Naihanchi dachi, back to back but not touching. One would have a big ball. They would rotate towards each other to one side and pass the ball, and then rotate in the other direction and do the same. Back and forth with the torsos. Passing the ball faster and faster.

Back to the movements. In many of the forms, as you rotate side to side, both arms move in unison. In some systems one hand touches the other arm, and in some systems they are separate. The Motobu gif shows the arms connected.

http://www.geocities.com/uchinati/kata.html

Now to ground fighting. First we will look at a simple ground and pound application from the mount (for the non-grapplers, on top). On the ground, like in naihanchi, your hips are, at times, pretty immobile, and you rely on your torso for power.

Let's say the opponent beneath you strikes with his right. Then you will pivot to your left, with your left hand up and your right arm flat across your torso. As you pivot to your left (counterclockwise) with your torso, the left arm blocks the opponent's right strike and your right elbow strikes the head/neck. The kata repeats in rapid succession to the other side. Here you can grab your left hand with your right hand for extra power. In fact, the kata then stacks the hands and counterpivots again with a double strike. That's a third elbow (your right), all with the torso for power. Or if the opponent has both hands out and strikes with one and then the other hand, you merely elbow the head with each block.

So you have a simultaneous block and strike (with the elbow to the head,) followed by an immediate second and perhaps third elbow to the head. In this movement, your hips are relatively stationary and your torso moves fully, just as in the kata. The actual position of your legs is quite a bit like Nainachi. Finally, you are using your elbows to strike the head and not your knuckles. Elbows are pretty resilient, especially compared with the finger bones below the knuckles which tend to break when hitting the jaw, cheekbone and brow.

There are other applications as well. The close-in arm on this can also be used to choke. Let's say it is the left arm with the hand at the elbow and the right arm has the hand high. Then you use your right forearm to drive your right hand down on one side, while you use your weight to drive your elbow down to the ground with the other.

How about another basic ground fighting technique. Let's say you block a strike and want to bring the striking arm up under your stomach to pin it and keep it out of the way. The first pivot brings both hands out towards the striking arm. Then both try to wrap/grab the arm and once engaged, you use the reverse torso rotation to drive the hand across his torso to pin it. If the opponent tries striking with the other, while you are doing this, your natural pivot towards that arm sets up a block.

Now lets go to the guard (on the bottom) with the attacker in the mount position. A common move in Ju Jitsu is to reverse position or pass the guard and proceeds is as follows:

Against a straight right arm next to our head (could be supporting weight, or could have just punched), you wrap the left arm over and around to set up a lock, and you bring your left foot underneath you, up as close to your groin as you can. Then you simultaneously rotate to your right and push off with your left foot. The rotation enables you to successfully push your right hand against the attackers neck, and work a good arm bar with your left. You roll over the top and reverse the guard.

Here is Naihanchi. The sweep to your left puts your foot in position for the reversal (leave it there). The rotation to the left uses the left arm to wrap and the right arm to either elbow (if the head is down, or just get in position for the following push to the neck. Then the rotation to the right accompanies the drive of the left leg down to make the reversal.

We can go on an on regarding ground fighting ideas. Yabu Kentsu said, "Karate begins and ends with Naihanchi". It seems like there are an endless supply of meaningful applications.

What do you think?

 

[Kempojujutsu]

Mike, I was having troubles picturing this. I had to read it and try to picture, maybe work was to hard on me. The choke you are refering to is that maybe a Guillotine/ front naked choke? The escape of the mount, called a Umpa in BJJ. The first thing you mention still have troubles with the movement. But I think you mean to spear with the elbow for that part of the kata. Is that right or am I way off? Also was telling my students the other night that the horse stands you see in kata's could be used or seen in the mount position.
Bob :asian:

 

[Sensei Mike]

KempoJuJutsu:

I will check to see if it is a front naked choke. It isn't a wrap around the neck, more of a push straight down

Imagine being in the mount with both arms on either side of the persons head. Now bend your left arm and bring your left hand to your right arm and drive your left ulna under his chin and down on the trachea. Now grab your left fist with your right hand and use your right arm as well to exert pressure. Your weight is more to your left. If he turns his head you apply pressure to his carotid artery.

For the first technique, I don't know what a "spear" is. I train against a bag on the ground for this, with me in the mount. Back and forth, elbow to bag, elbow to bag rotating my torso. Is that a spear? (If you want, I can show you a standing technique from Pinan Yondan that has a similar principle.)

I occasionally practice Yoshin Ryu Ju Jitsu and we don't strike, so I am unfamiliar with the the striking terms.

btw, I sent you an email.

 

[Kempojujutsu]

What I meant was more of a downward elbow using more of the point of the elbow. Yes I got the choke, and I can see it in the kata now.
Bob :asian:

 

[RyuShiKan]

Bob,

The trick is not the choke but how to get to the choke.

 

[Sensei Mike]

Another combination from Naihanchi:

For those of you that have reviewed my earlier combinations, you should appreciate that they take time to explain, so this is a long post. I hope someone benefits from it.

I have provided interpretations to two sequences. One for the movements to the right, coupled to the movements to the left (takedown) up to the cross-over step, and following stance. Then, two for the mirror image of the techniques that begin there (outside block), one against a right strike and one against a left.

Here is an interpretation for a sequence that begins with the direction to the left. It starts with the downward block, cross over strike, and uses the first sweeping foot motion as part of a takedown.

It begins with a left handed grab of your left wrist. The attacker has closed the distance with his left foot. You spring out, directly forward, one stride with your right foot. It comes just outside his left leg. The downward block/cross-over strike are done simultaneously. The left hand is going to reverse the grab by reaching outside the opponent's left arm and pulling back down on his forearm in a downward block motion.

While you might be able to do this unaided against an attacker your own size, or slightly bigger, you need assistance for a big guy, or someone with a strong grab. That is where the cross-over strike comes in. You do an arm bar to his triceps tendon. (from his elbow to one inch above.) When you launch this strike to the tendon, the initial striking surface should be you hammer fist, and then the ulna continues to slide across it. Done fast, you often wind up with just the ulna. Try to get as much push across the tendon, which responds to both direct pressure, but even more to pressure with friction.

There two keys to success. One is that you start the whole technique with your shoulders square to the front and only after your foot steps down do you do a strong pivot into Naihanchi dachi. Second. The hands move together. Actually, the hands and body all move at the same time. Your power for the grab, AND your simultaneous strike to the tendon (and following armbar) come from your twist.

Naihanchi dachi has bent legs. Immediately drive off the right (forward) bent leg. Use it as a springboard. You just have time to sink in, and then immediately thrust off. The cross-over step following the hand motions is a stomp to the knee. Since the armbar pushes his center of gravity away from you, it turns the knee slightly, making the knee a very useful target. The arm bar greatly weakens the stance, and the stomp then attacks the weak point.

After the stomp, make sure when you bring your foot down, it is not on the other side of his shin, which is now parallel to the ground. My students from time to time wind up with their legs tangled with the attacker's in the next stance.

You have three options with your left leg. The easy and fast one (which I do) is just to plant the left as quickly as possible up close under his head. Stay close, a longer "Shotokan-like" stance might be appropriate. Don't feel compelled to stay on the exact line that you started on if it brings you away from him. In so many cases, kata movements can close the gap between you and the opponent, so stay very close.

(Option two with the left knee is to try and knee him in the head before planting. This works well in some cases, but often is difficult. Option three is a very large leg movement, close to what is done in Shotokan, but even larger. It is a reverse crescent kick which kicks out to your right, and crosses completely over the opponent. The key is you are still holding his left with your left. So after the crescent kick is planted on the ground, you wind up with an arm-bar using your left hamstring. From here you can sit down for a submission.)

Back to the simple step. Once my left foot is planted under the opponent's head, I do an immediate right backfist strike to any good target on his head/neck, which is now about abdomin height. Both the temple and neck tend to be turned towards your oncoming fist. This backfist is the outside block movement that immediately comes after the cross-step. After the backfist, it immediately returns to the armbar.

The next part is easy for those that have done it but hard to describe. The double block here (left outward, right downward) will move the armbar to a shoulder lock. The left hand (holding the left wrist) circles over the right crook of the right elbow to trap the forearm. The attackers left arm needs to be bent to do thisl. If it is straight, then you need to bend it first, and that can be done with the left hand circling it while the right hand armbars the triceps tendon. Once you get the bent left forearm in the crook of your right arm, the left hand continues with either another backfist, or if you are close enough, a downward striking elbow. The pass of the grabbed arm to your right arm, and the strike, are all in one smooth, continuous, circular outside block motion. The right downward block exerts downward pressure on the elbow joint, enhancing the lock.

No you have weakened his stance (armbar, stomp) hit him twice, and now have bought time for the takedown. You are at the point where the left leg sweeps. First, the right arm must draw back slightly, so that your hand can grasp his upper arm. Usually this is no more than 6 inches or so. Pull back just far enough to grab. This hand is going to push out to the left, just is in the kata. The right arm has just struck. It now should position itself on your right side of his neck (his left side of the neck).

Depending on how close you were able to get under him when you finally stepped into place will determine whether you can use the sweep for an attack. If your stance was pretty long, your left knee maybe pretty much under his head. In this case, the sweep can be a knee to the head. If you can't reach, fine, skip it, as it is not necessary.

The return of the sweep is very important. Think of the sweep as a windup to a strong torso pivot to the left, just a pitcher does before a pitch. The turn to the left will accompany the left hand driving the opponent's neck to the left and down. (Down is important, and this movement is not identical to the kata, where the hand stays high.)

The right hand drives the upper arm to your right, again leveraging the power of the pivot in the torso.

Once the opponent is on the ground you can end with any finishing technique you like. If I can craft part of the next movement of the kata to get me there I usually do. So I discuss that below.

Let's get out of the application for a second and discuss some basic body mechanics. Imagine you are in Naihanchi, looking exactly to your left, and wanted to do a right side stomping kick exactly to your left. There are a range of chambers for your foot/leg to go through. One concept is to not pivot at all, and raise the foot directly in the path, towards the kicking direction, Then when the foot is raised you get the maximum rotation for the kensetsu geri (side stomping kick).

That's what I use here, The right sweep, which is part of a continuous kicking motion, across your body, utilizes maximum hip turn towards the target.