Naihanchi Shodan Bunkai Exchange

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by Sensei Mike

Interesting that a Chinese stylist practices Naihanchi Shodan. Is this a Chinese variant, or from one of the Okinawan systems

Ultimately, it doesn't matter what form(s) a person does... A combination of Japanese, Chinese, Okinawan, etc. Forms all head in the same direction. Movement is more important than the cataloguing of individual techniques represented in a form. How the movement is used to create techniques is the key moreso than the "standard" or "orthodox" breakdowns given in any particular form...

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by Sensei Mike

This thread is about the exchange of "interpretations" of kata. I don't know what system(s) of karate you have studied, but if it (they) did include extensive bunkai practice that contained takedowns from the movements in the kata, it (they) would be in the minority of karate systems today.

Actually, I have only recently begun studying karate, and regrettably had to terminate such study due to my recent relocation to the US. I wish I were able to continue, and in all likelihood whenever I return to Japan I will most assuredly be hitting RyuShiKan up for another lesson...

My training has been, and continues to be, in Yiliquan. It was quite a shock for me when I first discovered that the bulk of other martial arts schools didn't do form analysis/break down because it is such an integral part of what we do in Yili. I continue to be amazed by the folks that continue to maintain that forms are either worthless for "modern" martial arts training (whatever "modern" is supposed to imply), or that the techniques everyone else sees so clearly in forms are not actually there...

We could go on and on why this is the case, or to what degree this is the case. Fortunately today, there is a wonderful resurgence of ideas coming from many communities.

You are right. We could go on for pages and pages as to the Why of the current situation, but it is pointless and unproductive. It is a fortunate turn that so many people are gradually turning toward the "pro-kata" side and are delving into the contents therein.

Gambarimasu.

 

[RyuShiKan]

quote: Originally posted by Sensei Mike

Interesting that a Chinese stylist practices Naihanchi Shodan. Is this a Chinese variant, or from one of the Okinawan systems

Ultimately, it doesn't matter what form(s) a person does... A combination of Japanese, Chinese, Okinawan, etc. Forms all head in the same direction. Movement is more important than the cataloguing of individual techniques represented in a form. How the movement is used to create techniques is the key moreso than the "standard" or "orthodox" breakdowns given in any particular form...


__________________
Matt Stone

Matt,

Your right. Which version of a form(s) a person does is irrelevant. I was trying to point this aspect out but to no avail.

Since the body only moves in certain directions, and body mechanics are the same for big or small people it is not really so important which technique is being used but how one arrives at the use of that technique.

Just as an extra tid bit of info, the kata Naihanchi Shodan is thought to have originated in China, so any of the Okinawan versions would be variants of the Chinese version(s).

 

[Sensei Mike]

This is a long post. It includes, later on, a fairly detailed analysis of an idea for some movements in Naihanchi. I hope somebody benefits from it. My apologies, in advance, for so many preliminaries. My recent experience cautions me about leaving holes open in my analysis for the sake of brevity.

Well, I offered to exchange ideas, and gave you only one pattern so far. The next pattern begins with the movements to the left, against a left handed grab of the left hand (downward block/cross over strike) but the takedown is a little hard to describe, so for now, I will fast forward a bit. I want to show an idea where I could use the next movement, but I would rather do the mirror image a little further ahead. Instead of opening with the movements after the step to the left, I prefer to discuss an idea immediately after the step back to the right, where the left hand is executing an outside block. We will go through a combination and end up with the same takedown as the previous technique I described. (necksnap).

Before I begin, I need to set up some concepts that I stick to pretty uniformly in my interpretations.

First, I would like to begin with a post from Joe Swift regarding Mabuni's interpretations of directions in the Pinans. This can be found at (http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/Forum10/HTML/000002.html) and is posted in full, typos and all.

+++++++++++++++
I would like to offer the following partial translation of a chapter on the bunkai of Pinan Nidan in the 1938 "Kobo Kenpo Karatedo Nyumon" by Mabuni Kenwa and Nakasone Genwa. This particular passage is found on pp. 139-140, and deals with directions in kata.
Although this particular passage makes specific reference to the Pinan series, I propose that the principle can be applied to all other kata as well.
*************************************
Kata and Directions:
The meaning of the the directions in kata is not well understood, and frequently mistakes are made in the interpretation of kata techniques. In extreme cases, it is often eard that "this kata moves in 8 directions, so it is designed for fighting 8 different pponents" or some othewr such drivel. I would like to address this issue now.
Looking at the enbusen for Pinan Nidan, one can see that karate kata move in all different directions, forward and back, left and right. When interpreting kata, one must not get too caught up in these directions.
For example, do not fall into the trap of thinking that just because a kata begins to the left that the opponent is always attacking from the left. There are two ways of looking at this:

(1) The kata is defending against an attack from the left
(2) The kata is shifting to the left against a frontal attack

At first glance, both of these seem reasonable. However, looking at only number (1), the meaning of the kata becomes narrow, and the kata, which in reality must be able to be applied freely in any given situation, becomes awfully meager in its application.
Looking at a specific example, the 5 Pinan kata all start to the left, and then repeat the same movements to the right. Looking at
interpretation (1), the opponent must always be attacking from the left, and while fighting that opponent, another omes up from behind, so the defender turns to fight the new opponent. This type of interpretation is highly unreasonable.
Looking at interpretation number (2) however, the 5 Pinan show us that against an attack from the front, we can utilize tai-sabaki (body shifting) to evade to either the left or the right to put ourselves in the most advantageous position to defend ourselves.
*************************
tr. Joe Swift, 1998

Back to my post. I discovered many years ago, through careful analysis, the idea stated above by Mabuni, that in the opening of Pinan Shodan (in fact all the Pinans, and Kusanku Sho), that the initial movement can be used as tai sabaki (body shifting) against an opponent in front, and this has become much of the foundation of much of what I do. Though this is not a post on the Pinans, I long ago realized how effective some movements were when the opponent is directly in front, or slightly off to the one side or the other, rather in prearranged directions that you turn to. For the opening of the Pinans, against a large and powerful opponent directly in front, striking with his right (either straight or more importantly a hook), the counterclockwise pivot:

1. gets you off the line of attack
2. Keeps you in close range for a counter strike
3. allows the blocking arm to fully benefit from the power of the turn.
4. Allows for good power generation for a right counter strike, as the right hip is rotating towards the opponent. (In the case of Pinan Shodan, Yondan, and Godan this counterclockwise turn gives the simultaneous counters of hammerfist, elbow, and reverse strike, respectively. All of them work very well to the neck, but there are clearly a number of targets.)

In addition, I drew another observation that there was a marked difference in some common Shuri te and Naha te turns. The Naha te kata have a number of 180 degree turns, especially in Sanchin stance, where the front leg steps across the back leg. Whereas Shuri te kata have a number of 180-270 degree turns that use the back leg. In the case of an opponent from behind striking with the right hand, the Naha te turn allows you to step off the line, and spin counterclockwise. Then you can wind up much in a similar position as with the opening of the Pinans (slightly off to the right, and pivoting towards the opponent allowing all the advantages in 1-4 mentioned above.) However, the Shuri te turn that uses the back leg uses body mechanics that are common in many throws found in Judo, Aikido and Ju Jitsu. These two concepts, (back leg turn is good for throws, as well as number 3 and 4 above) led me to a conclusion that perhaps the key benefit of a turn in kata is the generation of power. Power for blocks, for initial counters, for locks and especially for throws. (I also found, at least in the Pinans, that pivots preceding or accompanying kicks help to generate speed for kicks. But that is a whole other topic.)

In Naihanchi, there are no "turns" per se, to generate power, but there is ample rotation of the torso that can be leveraged for power. After the leg sweeps, the leg re turning to the ground can generate power as well.

(Please note that this does not mean I ignore attacks from behind.) On the contrary, I am very concerned with them and therefore many of my applications allow me insert my attacker in the path of an attacker coming from my blind side (this is common to many throws).

The purpose of this lengthy digression is that for virtually all my bunkai, I primarily have the attacker directly in front of me. In some cases, as with some Naihanchi Shodan bunkai, I have to make an initial step to initiate the kata movement. But after that, the movements proceed pretty much as in the kata.

Again, my apologies for the preliminaries.

Regarding this particular application, I noted above I start with the mirror image of the movement after the step to the left, because it gives me a good defense against a fully committed right lunge strike (straight or hook) to my head. (I believe, based on the prevalence of right handedness that this attack is more likely than a similar strike from the left.) I will step my right foot forward one stride, directly forward, to engage. I will wind up, after a vigorous pivot, with my feet on a 45 degree angle, in Naihanchi dachi, very close in to my opponent.

I begin with my feet the same distance from my attacker, and not one foot back. Any stance works, but it is best to get this body position down first and once it works, only then go to other stances, such as a kamae, with the right foot back.

As soon as the attacker's strike is launched, I immediately raise my right hand to begin an inward block intercept. This is a very soft, buying time for the powerful left block to fully engage. By being soft, it can be very fast so that the hand can immediately return to chamber, where it is needed for a strike when I plant my right foot. At this time my hips are still forward, and my left outside block is well underway. Now my hips start to shift counterclockwise to add power to the left outside block (I like to say I block with my body, not my arms.) My block doesn't move much at all right to left. The pulling of the body to the left is where the power is generated.

This interpretation is not designed for an attack to the solar plexus. Rather, the expectation is that a head strike is a more likely attack than a strike to the abdomen. (I could write 10,000 words on this subject alone, and this post is long enough, so let's make an assumption that a big guy is punching hard at my head with his right.) I bring this up because my left outside block needs to sweep past my own head. I have found that temple height is often sufficient, but you may need another inch in height.

Because I have managed to quickly pull my right hand to chamber before pivoting, it is in place to take full power of the hip turn to perform an inverted strike to the neck. This is a clear variation from the kata where the right hand performs more of an outside block that moves from left to right. Here it is a linear strike. The Naihanchi kata movement does a linear strike, but only after the more circular block. This interpretation combines them even further eliminating any circular movement.

At the same time as the strike, I am going to do a simultaneous trap of the attacking arm. Please remember my emphasis on the height of the blocking hand (left). Your left hand needs to drive down on the outside of the opponent's attacking arm, to get to the downward block position found in the kata. The left elbow is going to have to come up to do this successfully. When you are done, the opponent's right forearm is wedged between pectoral and biceps, at the time of the strike. As your strike retracts, your left forearm folds under his right biceps, just as in the kata to complete the trap and setup an armbar.

I find that I have no problem doing all of this on the pivot to the left. Therefore I get a rotation to generate power for the block, and trap, as well as the strike. (But then I have been practicing this movement for many years.) You may need to initially pivot just on the outside block, but strike without the benefit of a hip turn.

The next movement in the kata, is that your right foot raises up towards your own groin. Remember that our initial right forward step has brought us very closely to the opponent. Now this foot can be brought up to his groin. If he is much taller, say more than a foot, you may have to do an actual front kick. But, if you have the flexibility gained stretching, and from many repetitions of this kata, you can bring your foot very high. (One assumption I have not covered is the width of the stance. In several systems it is shoulder width. In some others, it is slightly wider than shoulder width. In stances this wide, you can kick your opponent's groin with minor changes to the uprising sweeping kick found in Naihanchi. From very wide stances, like those found is some Shotokan systems, you may not be able to get enough height.)

For this kick to reach the groin, you need to extend it out slightly, and that adds to the height. The difference between this kick and a normal groin kick is that the traditional front kick, the shin swings on the knee, and most of the rising mass is in the shin. In this case, you are raising the entire leg, so the striking mass is the mass of the leg. The point is, you don't have to veer too much from the direct movements of the kata to make this leg raise work as a groin kick.

The groin kick will bring the head down, and you will assist the downward trajectory with both arms, and the powerful clockwise pivot as you bring your right foot down hard to the right. After the kick, your right forearm is going to strike the right side of the opponent's neck (his right side, is to your left). It rotates counterclockwise through the strike/push to your right. You get a lot of power pushing hard to your right from the twist to the right that follows, and is augmented by, the rising groin kick. Finally, recall that your left arm has wrapped his right arm, so that when you pivot your torso to the right, aided by the raising and lowering of the foot, you have an armbar as well. Try to have your radius on his triceps tendon, located between the elbow and an inch above it.

If the groin kick was effective, the combination of the downward pull of the opponent's abdominals, the push and rotation of the ulna against his neck, and the armbar, should be enough to take him all the way to the ground. But if he is really big, or if the groin kick didn't fully hit the target, you are going to wind up only with the attacker bent over.

I mentioned before that the final takedown is the same as I showed from my first combination. The hands will grab the opponent's head, secure it to your torso, right hand cupping the chin, left hand behind. Now you use your left to generate power in the twist. Or, in some cases another groin kick is available.

That completes the bunkai for a right strike attack. Now for a left strike attack to the head. (a lunge punch with the left foot forward.) The setup is the same. The initial stance is a ready stance, feet shoulder width. The right foot steps out a stride forward, in front of your foot. (For a straight left, the foot can be straight ahead. For a hooking left, you probably have to step a bit wider to the right.)

Again, use a soft brushing right inward block when stepping forward, as the left hand begins loading under your right arm. Then block high, pivot to the left, but not all the way. Leave a little range of rotation for the remainder of the movement. The double block, (right outward, left downward) proceeds as follows. The left downward movement goes outside the arm, while the right motion is more a cross between an inward block and an inverted strike. The ulna of your right arm strikes, and slides up, the triceps tendon of the attacker. (Between the elbow, and one inch above his elbow.) Make sure you have some counterclockwise rotation to generate power. Your left arm's downward block position provides the base from which the arm will pivot.

This motion should bring the head down at least slightly. Be careful of the "fallacy of small opponents". You need to do this against a big person to see how it will work. With most small attackers (your size or smaller) this arm bar can bring them down a lot, but against a large person, only a little.

The inverted strike that follows the double block, is directed to the neck.

Now the right foot sweeps hard to the outside of the opponent's left knee, weakening his stance. The right hand can grab the shoulder, or the hair (or push to the neck if he has no gi,shirt, or hair), and the strong clockwise rotation following the right sweep might bring the opponent down to the ground. If it only brings him off balance to your right, then chances are the left knee you kicked has never been pulled back under to support him and is still "pushed in". Your left sweep can now attack that knee again, and this will likely cause the opponent to drop to your right.

One of the things I like about these two combinations is the concept of dual attacks to a target. Sometimes the first one just doesn't work too well, so you go right back at it. Whether to the groin or the knee, these kicks occur in rapid succession, just as in the kata. The actual movements in the kata more closely approximate the kicks to the knee, but the kicks to the groin against the right strike use a lot of the same body mechanics as found in the kata.

Just a few ideas. Anyone else?

 

[Sensei Mike]

quote: Originally posted by Sensei Mike

Interesting that a Chinese stylist practices Naihanchi Shodan. Is this a Chinese variant, or from one of the Okinawan systems

quote: Originally posted by RyuShiKan

Just as an extra tid bit of info, the kata Naihanchi Shodan is thought to have originated in China, so any of the Okinawan versions would be variants of the Chinese version(s).

Thanks for the information. You know, I am sooo glad you offered this up. I had always thought that it went the other way. That kata originated in Okinawa, and the Okinawan trading families shared it with the Chinese. You have set me right. I had mistakenly thought that Daruma (Bodhidharma) brought Buddhism from India to Okinawa, and that it was in Okinawa where there was a great flourishing of martial arts development in the thousand years that followed, and that these arts flowed out from Okinawa to China, Japan, Korea, the Phillipines and elsewhere. Thanks for setting me straight.

```````````````````````````````
It would seem to the average reader, that today one would expect there to be several variants of any kata that was passed to Okinawa perhaps 150 years ago, maybe much longer. In fact, many Chinese systems share forms that have some commonalities and many differences, just as the Okinawans and Japanese do. Forms change over time. Hence, the question, "Is this a Chinese variant?"

Moreover, there are many stylists, who for one reason or another, study different styles and forms. There was a potential that this Chinese stylist was such a person. If so, I was curious whether he practiced, in addition to his Chinese forms, an Okinawan system or kata. Hence my simple request for clarification. This simple question contained no implication of origins of the kata.

There have been repeated requests to keep this thread on Naihanchi bunkai. Why must you persist at these digs at my statements ON THIS THREAD. You are perfectly free to start your own new thread to discuss these issues further.

 

[RyuShiKan]

quote: Originally posted by RyuShiKan

Just as an extra tid bit of info, the kata Naihanchi Shodan is thought to have originated in China, so any of the Okinawan versions would be variants of the Chinese version(s).

Originally posted by Sensei Mike

.......... Why must you persist at these digs at my statements ON THIS THREAD. You are perfectly free to start your own new thread to discuss these issues further.

Was that a "dig"?
Wasn't meant to be.

Originally posted by Sensei Mike

Thanks for the information. You know, I am sooo glad you offered this up. I had always thought that it went the other way. That kata originated in Okinawa, and the Okinawan trading families shared it with the Chinese. You have set me right. I had mistakenly thought that Daruma (Bodhidharma) brought Buddhism from India to Okinawa, and that it was in Okinawa where there was a great flourishing of martial arts development in the thousand years that followed, and that these arts flowed out from Okinawa to China, Japan, Korea, the Phillipines and elsewhere. Thanks for setting me straight.

Is this a "dig"?

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Sensei Mike

First, I would like to begin with a post from Joe Swift regarding Mabuni's interpretations of directions in the Pinans. This can be found at (http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/Forum10/HTML/000002.html) and is posted in full, typos and all.

+++++++++++++++
I would like to offer the following partial translation of a chapter on the bunkai of Pinan Nidan in the 1938 "Kobo Kenpo Karatedo Nyumon" by Mabuni Kenwa and Nakasone Genwa. This particular passage is found on pp. 139-140, and deals with directions in kata.
Although this particular passage makes specific reference to the Pinan series, I propose that the principle can be applied to all other kata as well.
*************************************
Kata and Directions:
The meaning of the the directions in kata is not well understood, and frequently mistakes are made in the interpretation of kata techniques. In extreme cases, it is often eard that "this kata moves in 8 directions, so it is designed for fighting 8 different pponents" or some othewr such drivel. I would like to address this issue now.
Looking at the enbusen for Pinan Nidan, one can see that karate kata move in all different directions, forward and back, left and right. When interpreting kata, one must not get too caught up in these directions.
For example, do not fall into the trap of thinking that just because a kata begins to the left that the opponent is always attacking from the left. There are two ways of looking at this:

(1) The kata is defending against an attack from the left
(2) The kata is shifting to the left against a frontal attack

At first glance, both of these seem reasonable. However, looking at only number (1), the meaning of the kata becomes narrow, and the kata, which in reality must be able to be applied freely in any given situation, becomes awfully meager in its application.
Looking at a specific example, the 5 Pinan kata all start to the left, and then repeat the same movements to the right. Looking at
interpretation (1), the opponent must always be attacking from the left, and while fighting that opponent, another omes up from behind, so the defender turns to fight the new opponent. This type of interpretation is highly unreasonable.
Looking at interpretation number (2) however, the 5 Pinan show us that against an attack from the front, we can utilize tai-sabaki (body shifting) to evade to either the left or the right to put ourselves in the most advantageous position to defend ourselves.
*************************
tr. Joe Swift, 1998

Interesting article.
Joe Swift and I have met on several occasions at my dojo as well as the annual Budo Seminar held in Chiba. He is a nice guy.
He asked me many questions about kata and bunkai on those occasions as well. We even went through some of the applications of Naihanchi Shodan too.

 

[chufeng]

I don't study in another system...
I train in YiLiQuan...
I use Naihanchi Shodan to emphasize to my students how even the simplest (on the surface) forms contain a wealth of information...I am quite frankly surprised at how many karateka don't know more about the layers of technique within kata, and even more surprised at those who would discard kata altogether.
By showing them a form from a different system, I hope to stimulate my students to start seriously examining the forms within our own system...I could just show them; but, when its spoon fed, it doesn't stick...
Like your "discoveries" in Naihanchi bunkai...if those were just given to you, if you didn't have to work for them, you would have a hard time remembering them, let alone executing them.

:asian:
chufeng

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by chufeng

......By showing them a form from a different system, I hope to stimulate my students to start seriously examining the forms within our own system...I could just show them; but, when its spoon fed, it doesn't stick...
Like your "discoveries" in Naihanchi bunkai...if those were just given to you, if you didn't have to work for them, you would have a hard time remembering them, let alone executing them.
:asian:
chufeng

I agree with you on the "spoon feeding" part. Something that is earned too easily is easily taken for granted or disregarded.
Which is one reason I don't hand out answers to such questions over the Internet...........I don't even give out answers so easily to my actual students either.
Your teachers in school didn't stand there and tell you the answers to all the questions.........you wouldn't learn anything if they did. What they did do was teach you how to find the answer yourself thereby letting you learn more.
Most likely we will get scolded because we aren't talking about the topic..........or at least it would seem that way. But in reality we are.
I was hoping "sensei" Mike would look at the mpegs that I introduced with an open mind and try to learn from them on his own but instead he thought I was playing some kind of game with him.

Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day........teach him how to fish and you feed him for life.

 

[MikeJoe]

Originally posted by Sensei Mike

..... It would seem to the average reader, that today one would expect there to be several variants of any kata that was passed to Okinawa perhaps 150 years ago, maybe much longer. In fact, many Chinese systems share forms that have some commonalities and many differences, just as the Okinawans and Japanese do. Forms change over time. Hence, the question, "Is this a Chinese variant?"

On top of that, IIRC, Chinese masters will make radical changes to forms, even within the same system, just to be different from one another. IOW, wheras in karate, someone from Shotokan will recognize the Shito-Ryu versions of the pinans/heians because the basic sequence is the same, two masters in Wing Chun will rearrange the sequence just to differentiate each other. This makes it difficult for some pracitioners trying to catch up, part of the reason my Wing Chun instructor killed his class -- he couldn't afford to go to Atlanta and train with Sifu Francis Fong, and going to a local school would give him forms with a totally different sequence.

Moreover, there are many stylists, who for one reason or another, study different styles and forms .....

Count me as one such individual: although I mainly practice karate kata when I train on my own, I work in the Beijing Sequence from Tai Chi, and (when I can haul the tools out someplace people won't freak) some espada y daga 'forms.'

(Oddly enough, I remember the Chinese forms I leared in Maine 10 years ago, but I've forgot 99.9999999% of the Wing Chun stuff I learned only within the past five. Go figure. :shrug: )

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by MikeJoe

................wheras in karate, someone from Shotokan will recognize the Shito-Ryu versions of the pinans/heians because the basic sequence is the same,

I don't know about that.........I have seen some pretty "whacked out" versions of Pinans, Naihanchi and a few other famous kata that have been pretty muched FUBARed by some "Soke-doke" or someone that didn't learn them correctly to begin with.

 

[MikeJoe]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan



I don't know about that.........I have seen some pretty "whacked out" versions of Pinans, Naihanchi and a few other famous kata that have been pretty muched FUBARed by some "Soke-doke" or someone that didn't learn them correctly to begin with.

From 1991 until 1994 or 1995, I was practicing both the Shito-Ryu and Shotokan versions of Pinans 1, 2, & 3 when I worked out on my own. They are similar enough that more than once, I switched styles in mid-form when I wasn't paying attention. So at least as far as moving from one major Japanese style to another is concerned, they are very similar.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by MikeJoe



So at least as far as moving from one major Japanese style to another is concerned, they are very similar.

Yes I know that.

That would be due to organizations like the JKA or JKF which have made "sterilized" (ryu-ha free)versions for competition.

 

[MikeJoe]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan




Yes I know that.

That would be due to organizations like the JKA or JKF which have made "sterilized" (ryu-ha free)versions for competition.

Right (although the Ryuku Kempo versions of the kata I've seen are recognizeable even though the hand techniques are different). Point is in other MAs, there is no such standardizing influence.

So while the order of the techniques is the same when you move from style to style in karate, a Wing Chun master might rearrange the order -- say the third move becomes the first, etc. -- just to be different from the other branches of the art.

Move into the Filipino arts, and there are huge differences over basic terminology.

That's my point.

 

[Kempojujutsu]

I study Shudokan karate, and the movement of bring your foot up and touching the knee of the other leg. Was done as a leap, and taught as you are avoiding a kick. There are some wacky bunkai application out there. I think you have to sort through some of the junk, to find the good stuff. Have this one tape where they are doing pinan nidan (I believe) the movement has three upward blocks, shown as blocking attack, blocking another attack, than applying some kind of bad ude garami (Hammer lock)
Bob :asian:

 

[RyuShiKan]

Mike,

I got your point but I think we are saying the same thing and not realizing it.

My point about some karate kata is the same as what you said about Wing Chun.
I have seen some karateka that have "made their own style" that when the perform a Pinan Kata I can't tell if it is a Pinan or Passai because it is so whacked out.
Example:
I had a student that had studied from someone that came to Japan for a year and then went back to his own country and "founded" his own style,
Called "Gokan Ryu" (gokkan in Japanese means rape by the way)
That student performed a Pinan kata, or so I was told, that was so messed up I honestly couldn't tell you what they were doing. After asking the student several questions about the kata I was told their "Grandmaster" had taken the kata he learned in Japan and "improved" them.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Kempojujutsu

I study Shudokan karate, and the movement of bring your foot up and touching the knee of the other leg. Was done as a leap, and taught as you are avoiding a kick.

This knee touch is done for a reason but not for jumping out of the way of a kick because they could just keep on going and kick the other leg couldn't they..........we think of it as pointing to where we are going to kick the other person.............sometimes kata tells you where you are going to hit.

 

[Kempojujutsu]

Yes RyuShiKan, I found this out after switching to kempo. At one time I hated kata's when I was in Shudokan. We would go over them, but the intructor had no clue what was going on in them. Example Naihanchi they actally called it Nai Fan chi. Was used to fight in a hall way or very tight area. Again I know this not to be true. But sometimes or alot of the time you have to search through the crap to get or find the good stuff.
Bob :asian:

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Kempojujutsu

Yes RyuShiKan, I found this out after switching to kempo. At one time I hated kata's when I was in Shudokan. We would go over them, but the intructor had no clue what was going on in them. Example Naihanchi they actally called it Nai Fan chi. Was used to fight in a hall way or very tight area. Again I know this not to be true. But sometimes or alot of the time you have to search through the crap to get or find the good stuff.
Bob :asian:

The "back to the wall" is a common misconception even among Karate in Japan as well most here don't really even care for Naihanchi.............and why should they with explanations like the ones they get. It would seem kind of useless.

Also, Naihanchi can be called Naifanchi.........different parts of Okinawa have different ways of saying it. I have even heard it called Nai fuan Chi.

 

[chufeng]

OK, so your kata "Points" to targets sometimes...

If your back is to the wall...isn't it possible that you are pointing to the wall? I mean, you could kick a hole in it and escape, or just drive the opponent into it, sort of a vertical breakfall ?!!

But seriously, many Kata teach specific targets in a codified way (all the more reason not to f*ck with a form until you REALLY know what it teaches)...The Chinese have been doing that for hundreds of years...and the ties that Ryukyu Kingdom (Okinawa) had to China before Japanese domination is undeniable.

Neat thread...now I'll go back to lurking and learning

:asian:
chufeng