Return to some old styles...

[isshinryuronin]

This is an example of what I call "entanglement." It's a great way t'o neutralize an opponent's superiority. Not the same as a boxing clinch as offensive opportunities still exist. I've used this tactic a number of times and found there is some risk of getting entangled and unbalanced yourself. You need a strong stance and structure when you're tied up with the opponent.

This is my post #26 (responding to Kung Fu Wang's post #24) that I thought should be clarified. While sort of related to the way I used "entanglement," that word can also refer to the little-known Okinawan skill of karamidi, restraining techniques once used by law enforcement to control the opponent without causing serious injury.

IMO this should not be called a subset skill of karate as it's contrary to karate's original intent which was to crush the opponent and cause injury. Some styles may have a few of the techniques. Karamidi can also reference the binding of the opponent with ropes to render them unable to move.

It likely existed before karate was fully developed in Okinawa. Japanese Samurai and LE had similar skills (hojoojutsu - had to look up the Japanese word) and I think there's a good chance it's the source of the Okinawan version. The fathers of karate such as Matsumura were security agents for the king and learned Samurai arts in Japan. So, like kobudo (bo, sai, etc.,) this was a separate skill set from early karate. Kobudo made its way into karate and is practiced by some styles today. The emptyhanded karamidi present in karate styles today is limited in scope, although modern Japanese LE may be trained in it. I believe the rope binding art is still alive in Japan as a koryu.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I’m going of topic here. Are those guys actually faking their deep stances by sitting on som sort of stairway ?? Is it Chen Xiaowang in that picture ?

Chen push hands is sometimes done in a deep stance and includes use of the legs. I have done push hands with a few Chen guys, 2 directly linked to Chenjiaguo, they tend to go low and use their knee to move your knee. And that look very much like a young Chen Xiaowang

 

[Xue Sheng]

I just pointed out that , when reading the list of the 13 postures, the four directions- advancing, retreating, step left and right , they are not separate from upper body movements……That’s of course pretty obvious, but still I for some reason wanted to point it out .

As it’s clear in the TJQ form, while stepping the upper body momentarily may twist and turn seemingly not in conjunction with the direction of the stepping thus challenging the six directional harmony and by so eventually exercising the six directional harmony on deeper/higher levels.

As seeing it as footwork, the four directions - advance, retreat, left and right of course are obviously not just four directions, there’s 8, 12 …and so on directions.
On an esoterical note, with the four directions theoretically overlapping forming a +, a perfect circle can be drawn, add directions of up/down to the four directions then a sphere can be drawn thus thus strengthening one’s center to perfection and so opening for endless possibilities - indeed the great ultimate

traditionally its 5 directions if you including center. If you look only at foot work it can be 8 from a traditional POV

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

the four directions- advancing, retreating, step left and right ,

It seems to me that body rotation such as the "wheeling step - spin your body to move out of your opponent's attacking path" is missing in the list, does that mean Taiji guys don't like to spin?

 

[Same Trick]

Chen push hands is sometimes done in a deep stance and includes use of the legs. I have done push hands with a few Chen guys, 2 directly linked to Chenjiaguo, they tend to go low and use their knee to move your knee. And that look very much like a young Chen Xiaowang

Yes I know that Chen TJQ have a thing for low stances, however that pic of a young(er) CXW it looks pretty well they’re actually sitting/leaning on to a staircase structure and so faking their low stance, why would they do that ?

 

[Same Trick]

It seems to me that body rotation such as the "wheeling step - spin your body to move out of your opponent's attacking path" is missing in the list, does that mean Taiji guys don't like to spin?

I don’t know exactly what wheeling step is, is it some kind of pirouette or does it just refers to the torso/upperbody turning /evasion ?

In TJQ form there’s plenty of evasive and turning moves while stationary as well as while stepping..

The four as I mentioned - advance, retreat, step left and right are the basic directions as north, south, east and west, within that all the directions are found..

Just as the compass use when calculating the correct direction the compass house can be turned so also can our body turn for correct position.

 

[Same Trick]

traditionally its 5 directions if you including center. If you look only at foot work it can be 8 from a traditional POV

Yes I know they are counted as five directions(or actually counted as postures)where ‘central equilibrium’/Zhong-ding is the fifth. And that that it’s the fifth is because it will come around/be found when the harmony of the four basic direction/(postures)has come about.

Actually if we say directions instead of postures they are counted as six

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I don’t know exactly what wheeling step is, is it some kind of pirouette or does it just refers to the torso/upperbody turning /evasion ?

- You have right leg forward and facing north.
- Your opponent moves toward you.
- You step your left leg 45 degree to your left.
- You then pull your right leg behind your left leg, spin your body as a "stealing step", and facing your opponent when he just passes you.

If you then use your right leg to attack his stepping in left leg, that's called "三点步 - 3 points steps". Since it applies yielding and borrowing force, I assume Taiji should have this (but I haven't seen it yet).

 

[Same Trick]

- You have right leg forward and facing north.
- Your opponent moves toward you.
- You step your left leg 45 degree to your left.
- You then pull your right leg behind your left leg, spin your body as a "stealing step", and facing your opponent when he just passes you.

If you then use your right leg to attack his stepping in left leg, that's called "三点步 - 3 points steps". Since it applies yielding and borrowing force, I assume Taiji should have this (but I haven't seen it yet).

I cant watch youtube from here, but I can watch the gif’s you post, do you have a gif of this footwork?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I cant watch youtube from here, but I can watch the gif’s you post, do you have a gif of this footwork?

The difference between "wheeling step" and "stealing step" is the "wheeling step" requires you to step forward first. If you don't step forward, you can use "stealing step" to keep rotating your body and guide your opponent into the emptiness (one of the Taiji principles).

This is "wheeling step".

This gif shows continuous "stealing step" (without the forward stepping first).

 

[Same Trick]

The difference between "wheeling step" and "stealing step" is the "wheeling step" requires you to step forward first. If you don't step forward, you can use "stealing step" to keep rotating your body and guide your opponent into the emptiness (one of the Taiji principles).

This is "wheeling step".

View attachment 31757

This gif shows continuous "stealing step" (without the forward stepping first).

Ah ! (nice diagram sketch ), let’s imagine doing the TJQ form sequence from ‘cross hands’ doing the ‘embrace tiger return to mountain’, it can fit very well with that ‘wheeling step’.

Also ‘step back repulse monkey’ although done straight backwards i’d say the idea is in there too

 

[Xue Sheng]

It seems to me that body rotation such as the "wheeling step - spin your body to move out of your opponent's attacking path" is missing in the list, does that mean Taiji guys don't like to spin?

The 13 Postures are not all there is to taijiquan

 

[windwalker099]

The difference between "wheeling step" and "stealing step" is the "wheeling step" requires you to step forward first. If you don't step forward, you can use "stealing step" to keep rotating your body and guide your opponent into the emptiness (one of the Taiji principles).

This is "wheeling step".

View attachment 31757

This gif shows continuous "stealing step" (without the forward stepping first).

we use the same movement

As used in the first half of (Zhuǎnshēn Bānlánchuí, 转身搬拦捶)

 

[Xue Sheng]

First time in a while, Last Saturday and then Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday3 days, I don't want to leave the house without working on the Chen 19, doing stance training and some Baduanjin and/or the Sun short form. And if I do the Sun form, I also will do my form,

I am enjoying training again, actually feeling it in my legs for the first time in a long time Think I will get back to Chen silk reeling soon.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Something I have not done in a while, lost track of time and spent a bit more than an hour working on just the Chen 19. Then I went and worked on piquan (xingyiquan) for almost 30 minutes. Or at least that is how I think it worked out. I do know for certain I’ve been working on this for over an hour and 45 minutes.

 

[Appledog]

Many years ago, someone said, "If I can move back faster than you, none of your technique will work on me." His comment had bothered me for many years.

One of Wang Zi-Ping's special moves was to suddenly jump backwards as much as eight to ten feet. One of his frequent go-to moves when being suddenly attacked was to jump backwards and assess the situation. There is the frequently told tale of Sullivan in 1921. On the day of their match Sullivan attempted to suddenly attack Wang just before the match. His instinctual response on sensing the danger was to jump back and then he was able to take control of the situation.

He once received a challenge in his old age. He proposed that if his opponent could land a single blow within two minutes he would lose. Something like this, I'm sorry if this story is not so entertaining. Anyways on the day of the challenge when the opponent struck Master Wang jumped back and as the opponent came forward he would just step backwards. At one point the challenger was just running straight at Wang, who was running backwards at full speed, and fully balanced and calm. After a while his opponent said that he was totally unprepared for Wang's agility in stepping and was unable to land a blow even solely from that.

 

[Same Trick]

One of Wang Zi-Ping's special moves was to suddenly jump backwards as much as eight to ten feet. One of his frequent go-to moves when being suddenly attacked was to jump backwards and assess the situation. There is the frequently told tale of Sullivan in 1921. On the day of their match Sullivan attempted to suddenly attack Wang just before the match. His instinctual response on sensing the danger was to jump back and then he was able to take control of the situation.

He once received a challenge in his old age. He proposed that if his opponent could land a single blow within two minutes he would lose. Something like this, I'm sorry if this story is not so entertaining. Anyways on the day of the challenge when the opponent struck Master Wang jumped back and as the opponent came forward he would just step backwards. At one point the challenger was just running straight at Wang, who was running backwards at full speed, and fully balanced and calm. After a while his opponent said that he was totally unprepared for Wang's agility in stepping and was unable to land a blow even solely from that.

Neo-wuxia

 

[Appledog]

Neo-wuxia

Learning what is possible is the first step. Most people are not taught what is possible and so they never try to achieve it. Many martial arts histories will record jumping ability as a mark of skill. Famously, Chen Yu Xiang (陈玉香) and Chen Yu Pei (陈玉佩) were known to have great jumping ability. It's far more common than you think.

To wit, 8 to 10 feet is really not that far. Here's a 65 year old man doing 8ft 11inches.

Almost any 'untrained' (in terms of martial arts) person can pull this off, including kids in high school. Here's a kid doing it in 1959 on the school field.

The real trick with what Wang was doing was training to get the jump in a short amount of time so it could be used as a response, not at all in the length of the jump. It should also be pointed out that the jumps he performed were not standing longjumps, so it would have been a lot easier to hit 10 feet at the drop of a hat.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Looks like i will be in Shanxi Style Xingyiquan class this Friday

 

[Same Trick]

Learning what is possible is the first step. Most people are not taught what is possible and so they never try to achieve it. Many martial arts histories will record jumping ability as a mark of skill. Famously, Chen Yu Xiang (陈玉香) and Chen Yu Pei (陈玉佩) were known to have great jumping ability. It's far more common than you think.

To wit, 8 to 10 feet is really not that far. Here's a 65 year old man doing 8ft 11inches.

Almost any 'untrained' (in terms of martial arts) person can pull this off, including kids in high school. Here's a kid doing it in 1959 on the school field.

The real trick with what Wang was doing was training to get the jump in a short amount of time so it could be used as a response, not at all in the length of the jump. It should also be pointed out that the jumps he performed were not standing longjumps, so it would have been a lot easier to hit 10 feet at the drop of a hat.

that is a good point to point out, sometimes details are missing in the tales of the masters