Return to some old styles...

[windwalker099]

Yes, it's more difficult to train "not moving" even though it sounds easier. First, one can practice rooting by using something like karate's sanchin kata which strengthens the core structure as one will need a strong base the way the hub of a wheel supports the spokes.

Since we are not stepping to evade the attack, it must be deflected. Techniques that "ward off" must be used as you highlighted in your #1. But I don't see why your #2,3,4 or 5 can't be employed as well. If your base is strong, can't these be done effectively while the feet are stationary without stepping? Again, sanchin trains how to do this, in part.

The way we deal with this is not so much by "rooting" or "deflecting," although in some cases these methods are used...

The Chinese word used to mean "dissolve force" is "化劲" (huà jìn). This term refers to the skill of neutralizing.

In Taiji, the focus is more on what is called "化意" (huà yì). The word can be broken down into two parts: "化" (huà), which means to transform, dissolve, or neutralize, and "意" (yì), which means intent or intention. Together, "化意" refers to the concept of transforming or neutralizing an opponent's intent.

n Taiji practice, this concept is essential as it involves recognizing and responding to an opponent's intention before it manifests into physical movement. By understanding and neutralizing the opponent's intent, a Taiji practitioner can prevent an attack from fully developing and maintain control of the interaction.

This requires a high level of sensitivity and awareness, allowing the practitioner to effectively diffuse the opponent's energy and redirect it harmlessly.

Using this, very little to no stepping is necessary, although it might take a while before it's developed enough for use outside of training and development.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

These are just other ways of saying "stay at the center." Doesn't describe how to practice it as KFW is asking.

In my school, we train "hold on the ground" by not allowing to move your feet. No matter how strong that your opponent's attack may be, you cannot move back even 1 inch (you can't even raise one leg). This training is good to develop strong well to "protect your territory". Since you cannot lift your leg to escape your opponent's foot sweep. You can only turn your shin bone to against it. This will force you to develop a strong rooting against foot sweep. This is just "common sense", I don't understand why some MA system (such as Taiji) wants to make a great deal about it. There is only good MA and bad MA. There is no such thing as "internal" MA and external MA.

A friend of mine had a workshop and spent 2 hours on this single subject. There was no partner reaction involved in that workshop. Without referencing opponent, I just don't know how anybody can develop/test this solo without partner.

 

[windwalker099]

There was a video of Benny Urquidez demonstrating some techniques of holding your ground that were excellent. I forget the thread it was on.

Yes, it's more difficult to train "not moving" even though it sounds easier. First, one can practice rooting by using something like karate's sanchin kata which strengthens the core structure as one will need a strong base the way the hub of a wheel supports the spokes.

In Taiji, there is a practice called push hands.

"Not moving" refers to fixed step push hands.

As practiced by some, the purpose of the training has been lost, focusing on the competitive aspect of winning. One can look at it as a training method to understand how to hold your ground, with a higher level of sensitivity being the focus.

In Taiji, the focus is more on what is called "化意" (huà yì). The word can be broken down into two parts: "化" (huà), which means to transform, dissolve, or neutralize, and "意" (yì), which means intent or intention. Together, "化意" refers to the concept of transforming or neutralizing an opponent's intent.

The sensitivity is such that "4 ounces" is used as a metaphor for the contact pressure it works off of.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

In Taiji, there is a practice called push hands.
Not moving = fixed step push hands

In Taiji PH, if you grab on your opponent's arms, the PH process is interrupted. In fighting, if you grab on your opponent's arms, you don't need any sensitivity after that.

I call this principle as "octopus". When octopus wraps around you, the term "sensitivity" has no meaning.

 

[windwalker099]

nice


Now, think about if the shark was able to shrink in size before the octopus could secure a solid grip. This illustrates what we mean by sensitivity. The question one should ask is: sensitive to what? It cannot be physical pressure, because by then it's already too late.

In Taiji, the focus is more on what is called "化意" (huà yì). The word can be broken down into two parts: "化" (huà), which means to transform, dissolve, or neutralize, and "意" (yì), which means intent or intention. Together, "化意" refers to the concept of transforming or neutralizing an opponent's intent.

There is a word "shun" referring to shrinking or reducing the size of the body, which is "縮" (suō). This term implies contraction or drawing in, which aligns with the concept of making one's body smaller or reducing its profile to avoid or neutralize an opponent's force or attack.

 

[isshinryuronin]

In Taiji PH, if you grab on your opponent's arms, the PH process is interrupted. In fighting, if you grab on your opponent's arms, you don't need any sensitivity after that.

I call this principle as "octopus". When octopus wraps around you, the term "sensitivity" has no meaning.

View attachment 31742

This is an example of what I call "entanglement." It's a great way t'o neutralize an opponent's superiority. Not the same as a boxing clinch as offensive opportunities still exist. I've used this tactic a number of times and found there is some risk of getting entangled and unbalanced yourself. You need a strong stance and structure when you're tied up with the opponent.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

View attachment 31743



Now, think about if the shark was able to shrink in size before the octopus could secure a solid grip. This illustrates what we mean by sensitivity. The question one should ask is: sensitive to what? It cannot be physical pressure, because by then it's already too late.

We all know that if I can run faster than you, none of your MA skill will work on me.

The moment that push hand is engaged, wrist grabbing is hard to escape.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

This is an example of what I call "entanglement." It's a great way t'o neutralize an opponent's superiority. Not the same as a boxing clinch as offensive opportunities still exist. I've used this tactic a number of times and found there is some risk of getting entangled and unbalanced yourself. You need a strong stance and structure when you're tied up with the opponent.

It's difficult to "push" your opponent away when clinch has been established.

Do Taiji people train how to avoid clinching?

 

[windwalker099]

The moment that push hand is engaged, wrist grabbing is hard to escape.

In my experience, the attempt to grab is preceded by the intent to grab. If one can grab the other person, it means that person is not sensitive enough yet.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If one can grab the other person, it means that person is not sensitive enough yet.

Do you have any video to show this is even possible?

Of course, you can move your arm the same direction as your opponent's arm is moving to avoid arm contact. But if your opponent reverses his arm moving direction, will you be able to reverse your arm moving on time?

In this clip, the left arm downward parry (clockwise circle) has changed into upward wrap (counter-clockwise circle).

 

[windwalker099]

Do you have any video to show this is even possible?

Would you believe it or question what you saw?
Just as you question my experience?

Can people have different experience's...

I should mention my own experience spans more then 5 decades
of practice...

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Would you believe it or question what you saw?
Just as you question my experience?

Can people have different experience's...

I should mention my own experience spans more then 5 decades
of practice...

I don't believe "anti-clinching" is possible. If you have any video, I would love to see it.

I used to believe that one can use

- kick to set up punch.
- punch to set up throw.

Many years ago, someone said, "If I can move back faster than you, none of your technique will work on me." His comment had bothered me for many years. I then changed my belief into to use:

- kick to set up punch.
- punch to set up clinch.
- clinch to set up throw.

I also believe if I can grab on you, you no longer be able to push me away. With our body connection, your body will come with me and your push will become my pull.

The SC grip fight train anti-clinching (move arms the same directions as your opponent's arms are moving to avoid contact) and anti-anti-clinching (reverse arms moving direction to obtain arm contact) at the same time.

 

[windwalker099]

I don't believe "anti-clinching" is possible. If you have any video, I would love to see it.

Good means there is no point showing it is possible.

It's outside your experience.

Something I have no interest in validating or invalidating
It's you experience, mine is different.

Just as you mentioned training in "iron palm"
I trained in "burning palm"

Found it to be quite useful but took a lot of time spent to maintain it..

your. thoughts on "iron palm" was it useful ?

Only sharing thoughts and experiences.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Good means there is no point showing it is possible.

It's outside your experience.

Something I have no interest in validating or invalidating
It's you experience, mine is different.

Only sharing thoughts and experiences.

I did try not to allow my opponent to touch my arms for 15 minutes. I do agree it's possible.

 

[Same Trick]

Care to go more in-depth on "whole body matter"?

How do you feel this is different from other stepping?

We used to use many footwork patterns in stepping, combined with upper body movement and lower body stances.

View attachment 31739

One of the many foot work patterns we used in out practice...

I just pointed out that , when reading the list of the 13 postures, the four directions- advancing, retreating, step left and right , they are not separate from upper body movements……That’s of course pretty obvious, but still I for some reason wanted to point it out .

As it’s clear in the TJQ form, while stepping the upper body momentarily may twist and turn seemingly not in conjunction with the direction of the stepping thus challenging the six directional harmony and by so eventually exercising the six directional harmony on deeper/higher levels.

As seeing it as footwork, the four directions - advance, retreat, left and right of course are obviously not just four directions, there’s 8, 12 …and so on directions.
On an esoterical note, with the four directions theoretically overlapping forming a +, a perfect circle can be drawn, add directions of up/down to the four directions then a sphere can be drawn thus thus strengthening one’s center to perfection and so opening for endless possibilities - indeed the great ultimate

 

[windwalker099]

I just pointed out that , when reading the list of the 13 postures, the four directions- advancing, retreating, step left and right , they are not separate from upper body movements……That’s of course pretty obvious, but still I for some reason wanted to point it out .

Thanks


Found the focus to be different in that Taiji uses the center to interact with the opponent's center directly rather than relying on leverage or impact.

Robotics uses a concept called Zero Moment Point (ZMP), which is particularly important in the study of bipedal locomotion and balance. Taiji does not explicitly use the term ZMP, its underlying principles of maintaining balance, stability, and integrated movement align closely with the concept of ZMP.

This pattern is used for stepping and positioning, focusing on distance, angles, and position. Somewhat different from stepping based on interacting with the center.

 

[Same Trick]

There was a video of Benny Urquidez demonstrating some techniques of holding your ground that were excellent. I forget the thread it was on.

Yes, it's more difficult to train "not moving" even though it sounds easier. First, one can practice rooting by using something like karate's sanchin kata which strengthens the core structure as one will need a strong base the way the hub of a wheel supports the spokes.

Since we are not stepping to evade the attack, it must be deflected. Techniques that "ward off" must be used as you highlighted in your #1. But I don't see why your #2,3,4 or 5 can't be employed as well. If your base is strong, can't these be done effectively while the feet are stationary without stepping? Again, sanchin trains how to do this, in part.

Another consideration is that since you are not moving or changing position in relation to the attacker, you must change his position in relation to you. This means manipulating him, turning him around not only to redirect his attack, but to create openings for your counter. While you can practice stepping alone, I think to develop working from the center a partner is needed to pressure you.

What about pivoting into a twist stance? You are staying on the vertical axis, still at the center, yet your technique is rotating in a circular fashion, along with the opponent hopefully, around you.

These are just other ways of saying "stay at the center." Doesn't describe how to practice it as KFW is asking.

Windwalker pointed out taiji’s push hands, however karate has the same as in ‘Kakie’ practice, but it’s mostly practiced within the Goju-ryu system

 

[Same Trick]

We all know that if I can run faster than you, none of your MA skill will work on me.

The moment that push hand is engaged, wrist grabbing is hard to escape.

View attachment 31744

I’m going of topic here. Are those guys actually faking their deep stances by sitting on som sort of stairway ?? Is it Chen Xiaowang in that picture ?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I’m going of topic here. Are those guys actually faking their deep stances by sitting on som sort of stairway ?? Is it Chen Xiaowang in that picture ?

I believe it's CXW in that picture. Some people even do it deeper. This is the issue for stationary PH. It can turn into unrealistic when leg skill is not allowed.

I know at least 2 Chen Taiji people have knee problem.

 

[windwalker099]

I’m going of topic here. Are those guys actually faking their deep stances by sitting on som sort of stairway ?? Is it Chen Xiaowang in that picture ?

In my teacher's group, there were people who could actually perform the practice under a table. It was not possible to push them over physically due to their range of movement.
The practice done at 3 levels,,,developing different aspects.

To be able to play the solo practice as my teacher did, took around three years of legwork to condition the legs and body for those who wanted to specialize in this.

Master Zhang Youngliang

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