Responsibility of a Martial Artist

[Deaf Smith]

Do you feel it is our responsibility to step in as a trained MA-ist ? or not ?

bowser,

Stepping in to defend someone, MA trained or not, would depend on many factors. I repeat, MA trained or not, cause saving a life is the question, not how skilled I am at any particular thing (I carry a gun rather often and I'd use it more likely than my MA training simply because the presence of a gun might very will stop anything before it starts.)

If it was a child, short of total suicide with no chance of winning, I'd have to say give it a go simply cause one has got to live with oneself and my wife would understand why I did what I did.

'Who, what, when, where, how' would color my decision in all other cases.

If it's an idiot who's own mouth got them in trouble, I'd just watch in amusment. I'm a firm believer that sometimes we need to pay for our mistakes just to get a lesson from them.

Damsel in distress? Quite possibly. Handicapped? Quite possibly.

But I prommise you, I'd look for any handy weapon before I'd start karate chopping and kicking my way in (and that's if I didn't have Mr. Glock.)

But just like in the Virgin Islands were we took down the purse snatcher, if the guy had used a knife on us, well my honeymoon would have been over real quick and my wife a widow.

And yes, it could have ended that way, and I'm well aware of it now.

Deaf

 

[shihansmurf]

Here is a question for all of your folks here on the forums. In my style that I study Shaolin Northern Longfist there is a term called Wu De. Martial Morality. It touches on many different topics but one that is interesting to me is that Martial Arts as we all know is meant to be used in Self Defense only. However it is also taught in my school that MA is also to help protect and defend those that can't protect themselves. I understand that people stepping in to help others is happening less and less these days , mostly due to legal ramifications, and other factors.

WHat is everyone's feelings on this topic ? Do you feel it is our responsibility to step in as a trained MA-ist ? or not ? I look forward to all of your answers.

Interesting topic.

I don't feel it is my responsibility as a martial artist to step in and defend people as a general rule. The study of any fighting art doesn't in any way obligate me to become a noble protector of the weak or downtrodden. I don't look upon my black belt status as an excuse to engage in freelance bodyguard work, vigilantism, or the rescuing of damsels in distress. I am an athlete who engages in rough sport, a hobbyist who likes to hit and kick things whilst wearing pajamas, and a coach that enjoys mentoring students to high levels of skill in the two afore mentioned activities. I am not a Jedi Knight.

Now that particular bit of caustic ranting is out of the way, the inverse to the above is that as a man I'll not stand aside and allow anyone weaker than I to be harmed or bullied. I would be this way rather I was a martial artist or not. I was, in fact, precisely this sort of child before I started training.I believe that we all have a certain amount of responsibility to stand for those who cannot stand for themselves, but this is entirely independent of the fact that I am a martial artist.

In response to your question of if I would want someone to help my loved one: Of course. I have given them the tools to protect themselves but I would hope that if they were in need that others wouldn't turn their backs on them. Unfortunately though, our world is peopled mostly with cowards that wouldn't and the thought sickens me. I realize that I am a bit of a chauvanist in this thinking but I feel that any male that wouldn't help a woman or child in danger isn't a man.I wouldn't think too highly on any male that would let another man be harmed in an unjust way as well. Again, though, I think this way independent of my martial arts training.

Just my take on things
Mark

 

[Fiendlover]

Here is a question for all of your folks here on the forums. In my style that I study Shaolin Northern Longfist there is a term called Wu De. Martial Morality. It touches on many different topics but one that is interesting to me is that Martial Arts as we all know is meant to be used in Self Defense only. However it is also taught in my school that MA is also to help protect and defend those that can't protect themselves. I understand that people stepping in to help others is happening less and less these days , mostly due to legal ramifications, and other factors.

WHat is everyone's feelings on this topic ? Do you feel it is our responsibility to step in as a trained MA-ist ? or not ? I look forward to all of your answers.

I learn martial arts to protect myself and the ones that can't defend themselves. But even though I might want to help someone else there's always the pride factor where the person may not want someone getting into there buisness or damaging there pride by handling something that that person didn't.
But with that thought still in my head I believe that if I can do something to help then I'll do it. You don't want to leave a situation knowing that a good outcome could've resulted if you only did something that was in your power to do.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

I didn't study MA to become "Batman", or even "Captain Hero".

Time to be unpopular...
Put bluntly, the term "trained martial artist" is an illusion. Most people are hobbyists, training twice a week, for 30 minutes floor time each time. They haven't the skill, experience, training, etc, for a real-world situation. The idea that "20 years training, and a GM rank" suddenly means you're the "great defender" is nice, but it's fantasy, and fantasy gets people killed.
Jackie Chan is a "trained martial artist", but I don't think his fancy theatrical skits will work well in a car jacking.
Jet Li is awesome, yet again, his movie training won't really help when it's my kid staring at a group of knife and chain gangers.
That 5x "World Champion" padded weapon expert probably won't be of much use against a guy with a gun.
"Olympic TKD Champion" is nice, but fancy kicks, board breaking and a nice loud scream won't train you for real combat.
Cuddling in a cage in a "NHB" match (with rules) won't prepare you to wrestle a shiv away from a thug while rolling around on broken glass while 4 others use ball bats on your legs.

I personally, probably wouldn't step in, unless it was a certain ****-fan situation. I wouldn't want any well meaning amateur to step in, make things worse, and possibly get themselves killed too.

Call the trained professionals, stay calm, try to diffuse things, and don't make them worse by well meaning but misguided heroics.

 

[Sukerkin]

An interesting view there Bob and one with a lot of truth in it for a certain proportion of martial arts 'hobbyists'.

I trained a lot more than you mentioned and have had the singular occasion to see if it paid off or not but I do agree that, compared to someone who dedicates their 'professional' time to learning to fight for a living, then I was probably sadly lacking.

It's actually a point I've raised in Iai before now viz just how poor we would be in comparision who did the training we do as part of their livelyhood ?

 

[matt.m]

I wore a Marine Corps uniform in the 90's and well. I will fight for those who can't help themselves. I don't care, it is better to be able to look at yourself in the mirror and like what you see and like it than dislike it.

I have never thought twice about it either, Missouri is a forgiving state in that aspect anyway. Tort law states that if you use self defense in the defense of others then you are not liable. However, and this is the big caveat.....ask if the person wants help first.

Here is a question for all of your folks here on the forums. In my style that I study Shaolin Northern Longfist there is a term called Wu De. Martial Morality. It touches on many different topics but one that is interesting to me is that Martial Arts as we all know is meant to be used in Self Defense only. However it is also taught in my school that MA is also to help protect and defend those that can't protect themselves. I understand that people stepping in to help others is happening less and less these days , mostly due to legal ramifications, and other factors.

WHat is everyone's feelings on this topic ? Do you feel it is our responsibility to step in as a trained MA-ist ? or not ? I look forward to all of your answers.

 

[Langenschwert]

I didn't study MA to become "Batman", or even "Captain Hero".

You didn't??? Good thing, because I'm Captain Hero.

The fact of the matter is that a lot of our training doesn't prepare us for dealing with a "real" situation. There's a reason why knights started training at the age of 8, and weren't knighted till they were 18-20. It takes that long to get good enough to use this stuff when people are you know, trying to kill you.

Now, if you're willing to step in and potentially die a few moments later trying to stuff your guts back into your abdomen, by all means, have at it. Bully for you. Is it your responsibility to step in? Probably not. It's your responsibility as a citizen to call the authorities. Depending on your laws, and if you have concealed carry (tactical pistol is a much more practical martial art than aything else you could possibly study), then it might behoove you to step in. If it's a massacre in progress, then by all means draw and shoot the bugger.

If it were my family or friends who were in danger, and I didn't have a pistol or whatever, I'd step in, since I can't think of a better way to die, and we've all gotta die someday. I hear Valhalla's lovely this time of year. But it's not my responsibility to put my life on the line for people I don't know. But it's my choice to do so if I wish.

I think people tend to romanticize MA to the point where they don't even realize that people actually die in confrontations. You can die in a simple fist fight. It's pretty easy to get in over your head, and things can go south PDQ. Don't get overly confident in your abilities, as the Masters of Defence said.

From manuscript HS 3227a (the first document in the Liechtenauer tradition):

"If you want to beat five or six men, then you will often get badly hurt since you can't defend against every strike directed against you, and you will then be subject to ridicule and scorn. You little fool who wanted to be the best, see what happened. This is not great courage, but great stupidity to try for four or six [opponents]; this will become clear to you that you will get the very opposite just as if you had bought it. It is better to hide away in bed than to display such great clumsiness."

Best regards,

-Mark

 

[bowser666]

You didn't??? Good thing, because I'm Captain Hero.

The fact of the matter is that a lot of our training doesn't prepare us for dealing with a "real" situation. There's a reason why knights started training at the age of 8, and weren't knighted till they were 18-20. It takes that long to get good enough to use this stuff when people are you know, trying to kill you.

Now, if you're willing to step in and potentially die a few moments later trying to stuff your guts back into your abdomen, by all means, have at it. Bully for you. Is it your responsibility to step in? Probably not. It's your responsibility as a citizen to call the authorities. Depending on your laws, and if you have concealed carry (tactical pistol is a much more practical martial art than aything else you could possibly study), then it might behoove you to step in. If it's a massacre in progress, then by all means draw and shoot the bugger.

If it were my family or friends who were in danger, and I didn't have a pistol or whatever, I'd step in, since I can't think of a better way to die, and we've all gotta die someday. I hear Valhalla's lovely this time of year. But it's not my responsibility to put my life on the line for people I don't know. But it's my choice to do so if I wish.

I think people tend to romanticize MA to the point where they don't even realize that people actually die in confrontations. You can die in a simple fist fight. It's pretty easy to get in over your head, and things can go south PDQ. Don't get overly confident in your abilities, as the Masters of Defence said.

From manuscript HS 3227a (the first document in the Liechtenauer tradition):

"If you want to beat five or six men, then you will often get badly hurt since you can't defend against every strike directed against you, and you will then be subject to ridicule and scorn. You little fool who wanted to be the best, see what happened. This is not great courage, but great stupidity to try for four or six [opponents]; this will become clear to you that you will get the very opposite just as if you had bought it. It is better to hide away in bed than to display such great clumsiness."

Best regards,

-Mark

Not sure what your point is here exactly. My point of this thread was that assuming 911 was already called, but threat of life is imminent , before authorities arrive. You advise that if you have a conceal permit to shoot? That is a quick way to end up in prison. I was simply asking if you would step in or not. Going in guns blazin is not very smart if you ask me, i was simply talking about maybe subduing the person , or at the worst try to knock them out. Not to mention if it was one of your loved ones I think you would be whistling a different tune. Its sad that people wont step in to help if there is noone else to help.

 

[Kacey]

Not sure what your point is here exactly. My point of this thread was that assuming 911 was already called, but threat of life is imminent , before authorities arrive. You advise that if you have a conceal permit to shoot? That is a quick way to end up in prison. I was simply asking if you would step in or not. Going in guns blazin is not very smart if you ask me, i was simply talking about maybe subduing the person , or at the worst try to knock them out. Not to mention if it was one of your loved ones I think you would be whistling a different tune. Its sad that people wont step in to help if there is noone else to help.

The point is that there is no one, "right" answer. Every situation is different, and there is no way that anyone can say "Yes, I will always step in to any situation, no matter what the risk to myself or others" because that's not realistic - fatalistic, yes, but realistic, no. This question comes up periodically in one form or another, and the answers are always the same: some people say "well, of course my training will protect me and I will do whatever, whenever, however, no questions asked", and the rest of us admit to just what Bob and Langenschwert said, which is that we are not superheroes, nor does our training make us invincible.

In the words of my sahbum: "belt no come with batteries" - meaning that the belt itself is no protection; it is the intelligence to use whatever training you have at the right time and in the right way that is important, and sometimes that right time and right way means calling 911 and waiting - or even getting out - because the situation is more than the person can handle. Jumping in front of a gun to protect someone else is noble, yes - and it's just likely to escalate the situation and get the person you're trying to protect shot after you've been as it is to stop anything. I don't konw about you - but my belt didn't come with a bullet-proof vest, or invulnerability, or the ability to beat off multiple armed attackers - and there are times, no matter who is involved, no matter how much it tears me apart, that I will not intervene - because I'll make it worse. I know that's not the answer you were looking for - but it's reality.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Statistically, most armed robberies are not intended to go lethal by the perpetrators. They want intimidation, not more problems.

An armed assault, would be a different situation. Lets use Columbine as an example. 2 gunmen, intent on killing as many random people as possible.
Which one do you take on first?

Situation: Gunman had gun to the head of your daughter. Gun hand is rock steady. He is agitated, rambling, and obviously not all there. You are on your knees 15 feet away. She is face down, handgun (a 45) is denting her skin. He's pulled her skirt up, and his intent is obviously not honorable.
Do you:
- leap to your feet and try to make the 15 feet before he can pull the trigger? Probability says he will get 1 shot off at east, and given the positioning, it will most likely be into your daughter's head.
- beg, plead hoping he will change his mind and not just shoot you to shut you up, then go back to raping her
- allow him his 'fun' and the 'honor hits' knowing you both might survive the encounter by submitting


Part of being a martial artist is knowing when technique fails, and other tactics, including submittal and doing nothing, apply. The "but I can't just do nothing" comment is a statement of frustration, not fact. Sometimes, as much as it hurts, sucks, and really pains you, doing nothing is the best you can do.

All that said, sometimes, training or not, the best you can do is rush the perp with as many people you can, and hope that you or they succeed before someone else gets hurt or killed.

But how I react depends on the situation, and until I get into those situations, and I hope I don't, I won't really know. Any "what would I do if" discussion when I haven't really had the experience is just talking.

And, me personally, if we're going to play fantasy games, I'd rather grab my dice and go fight dragons in dungeons.

 

[MJS]

Even if a call to 911 was already placed, I still don't think that I'd step in. And regarding a weapon...whether or not you carry one or not, you had better make damn sure that you're justified in using it.

I'm sure I sound cold hearted compared to those who want to jump into the fire, but frankly, its really not my job to get involved physically. I'm already getting involved by calling the people whos job it is to take care of crimes in progress...the police. Even if I carried a gun, physically getting involved, could very well put myself in a position I'm not prepared for or one that could take a bad turn fast.

 

[Langenschwert]

Not sure what your point is here exactly. My point of this thread was that assuming 911 was already called, but threat of life is imminent , before authorities arrive. You advise that if you have a conceal permit to shoot? That is a quick way to end up in prison. I was simply asking if you would step in or not. Going in guns blazin is not very smart if you ask me, i was simply talking about maybe subduing the person , or at the worst try to knock them out. Not to mention if it was one of your loved ones I think you would be whistling a different tune. Its sad that people wont step in to help if there is noone else to help.

I said, shoot depending on what the laws are in your jurisdiction (and if you have concealed carry you should know those laws inside-out), and the situation at hand. If it's Columbine, then shoot. How many school massacres could have been aborted or reduced if there was a responsible CC citizen at hand? In most cases, simply presenting a firearm will deter most perps, and doing so has saved many lives.

Subdue or knock someone out? What if he's twice your size? What if he has a knife? What if he's on drugs and adrenaline? What if he's all three? Good luck subduing him or getting a KO. Maybe you'll succeed, maybe you won't. The first rule of unarmed combat to to arm yourself ASAP. A good knife fighter is hell on wheels. Hell, even a bad one is very dangerous. Remember that 60% of stabbings are fatal, even with modern medicine.

And I did mention that I would step in to save a loved one. Please read my entire post. Sometimes guns blazing is the only way, sometimes standing back is the best thing to do. Sometimes talking the guy down is the best thing to do. And sometimes it's plan RLF.

Fighting is messy, chaotic and potentially fatal. The question really is "what are you willing to die for"?

Best regards,

-Mark

 

[Langenschwert]

And, me personally, if we're going to play fantasy games, I'd rather grab my dice and go fight dragons in dungeons.

I'll get the Cheetos and Mountain Dew.

Best regards,

-Mark

 

[Brian King]

Langenschwert wrote

"Remember that 60% of stabbings are fatal, even with modern medicine."

Mark, I have not heard that statistic before. Do you remember where you got it? I would have guessed the fatalities from stabbings overall to be quite low maybe 5 or 6 percent. We get lots of stabbings here in Washington State but relatively few homicides.

You wrote

“Sometimes guns blazing is the only way, sometimes standing back is the best thing to do. Sometimes talking the guy down is the best thing to do. And sometimes it's plan RLF.”

I agree with this statement except perhaps for the RLF…what is RLF?

Thank you sir
Regards
Brian King

 

[Langenschwert]

Mark, I have not heard that statistic before. Do you remember where you got it? I would have guessed the fatalities from stabbings overall to be quite low maybe 5 or 6 percent. We get lots of stabbings here in Washington State but relatively few homicides.

I'll take a look-see and get back to you.

I agree with this statement except perhaps for the RLF…what is RLF?

Run like...

Best regards,

-Mark

 

[Brian King]

Thank you sir
RLF...huh..figures I would only guess the third word..sigh

Thanks again
Brian King

 

[Steve]

Must be a Canadian thing. I would've gotten it right away if it were RLH.

 

[Langenschwert]

Must be a Canadian thing. I would've gotten it right away if it were RLH.

Canadian English is quite distinct, having something like 6000 words not found in any other dialect. I remember having to translate certain idioms for my American friends. We like to take common idioms and make them cruder. For example instead of saying "the cat's meow" for something that's really cool, we say "the cat's ***", because it kind of rhymes.

Best regards,

-Mark (who should RLF from this thread!)

 

[Dark Gift Concepts]

Here is a question for all of your folks here on the forums. In my style that I study Shaolin Northern Longfist there is a term called Wu De. Martial Morality. It touches on many different topics but one that is interesting to me is that Martial Arts as we all know is meant to be used in Self Defense only. However it is also taught in my school that MA is also to help protect and defend those that can't protect themselves. I understand that people stepping in to help others is happening less and less these days , mostly due to legal ramifications, and other factors.

WHat is everyone's feelings on this topic ? Do you feel it is our responsibility to step in as a trained MA-ist ? or not ? I look forward to all of your answers.

Yes and No. I had something happen to me once that I will share, and this is why I answered as I did. In 1999 somewhere around there. I saw this guy beating the crap out of a girl while she sat in her car, he kept slugging her in the face. I crossed the street and as I am approaching to help I see a truck with 3 Samoans watching just WATCHING! I stepped up to the guy and took care of him and got him off her. As he got up and back peddled to get into his car and leave. i turned to her to ask if she was okay, she not only told me to F.Off but told me if I hurt him she's going to kill me!...
So take it for what it is worth...I thought I did something good

 

[Fiendlover]

Yes and No. I had something happen to me once that I will share, and this is why I answered as I did. In 1999 somewhere around there. I saw this guy beating the crap out of a girl while she sat in her car, he kept slugging her in the face. I crossed the street and as I am approaching to help I see a truck with 3 Samoans watching just WATCHING! I stepped up to the guy and took care of him and got him off her. As he got up and back peddled to get into his car and leave. i turned to her to ask if she was okay, she not only told me to F.Off but told me if I hurt him she's going to kill me!...
So take it for what it is worth...I thought I did something good

i hate people like that. :BSmeter: