As a Martial Artist

[Drac]

But I also think that at the outer circle there is a minimum level of responsibility that every person, MAist or not, should uphold, even if it's only calling 911. Nobody should just turn away and say "it's not my problem", IMO.

Hear, hear!!

Well said...

For myself, I feel it should be used to defend myself and family. As for others in need...CoryKS prety much said what I'd do...call 911. Providing the police with a detailed description of whats happening, the accused party or parties, weapons, vehicle, make/model/color.

Mike

and making sure IF you call 911 that the dispatcher has a call back number for you..Don't be afraid to give your name..

 

[kidswarrior]

Wow, I never thought I'd hear that from anyone on MT... but I suppose that just shows my naivety.
I feel sorry for you if you don't consider it your... not necessarily job, but responsibility. I feel that to be my job: lifelong, unpaid, but a job nevertheless.
Not to say I'm without reason. I won't go running into a situation if no good can possibly come of it, but most times we have to make a decision. And if someone's life depends on that decision, I'm willing to put mine at risk to preserve theirs, even if that seems stupid. If I saw a gang fight, I'd stay out of it... but someone trying to kidnap a child, or even someone beating on a dog... I'm gonna intervene if I feasibly can. Guess it's just a personality flaw that has nothing to do with karate... but I sure thought that as a MAist... more specifically a MartialArtHeart, my duty was to protect those around me.
It still is.

If it's any consolation, I'm with ya on this. Two concrete examples:

First, guy using fists on a girl. This was years ago, before cell phones, and the time it took me to drive to a phone could have cost the girl dearly (maybe permanently). I stepped in, counting on my size and prior street experience to overpower/contain him. He was not impressed and beat me like a drum. Girl did escape, tho, and really all my wounds healed, so I guess it worked out (he was also very much loaded up on some samples of modern chemistry-- talked to himself about how blue the sky was, etc. the whole time).

Second, SUV full of adults (gangsters) screeched up as my school got out and several occupants (5-7) jumped out. One had a crowbar in hand and waded through the crowd and proceeded to hit a 15-year-old student over the head with it. They jumped back in the vehicle and sped away (start to finish, maybe 10 seconds). Student suffered convulsions and brain damage. I was 30 yards away, with a horrifyingly perfect view of the whole thing. But as far as getting there in time to intervene, I may as well have been 30 miles away.

The point of my meandering? I'll help if I can, but expect the unexpected, and know it's going down fast. In a real emergent-cy, LE's response time, while excellent, is not going to put them on the spot immediately.

 

[kidswarrior]

Well said...



and making sure IF you call 911 that the dispatcher has a call back number for you..Don't be afraid to give your name..

Good point, Drac. I think we often hesitate because we second guess ourselves--someone else probably already called by now, what if I'm wrong, etc. I've learned not to second guess--let the pros sort it out if it warrants a call. Oh, and I always give my name up front. Whatta they gonna do if I'm wrong, take away my birthday?

 

[Drac]

Good point, Drac. I think we often hesitate because we second guess ourselves--someone else probably already called by now, what if I'm wrong, etc. I've learned not to second guess--let the pros sort it out if it warrants a call. Oh, and I always give my name up front. Whatta they gonna do if I'm wrong, take away my birthday?

I don't think its that, many believe that somehow the "bad guys" will find out it was you that "dropped a dime on them" and seek revenge, that's if you're reporting a criminal act..

 

[Shotochem]

What does someone trying to kidnap a child look like?

Hi Carol,

I hope no one has to find out.

I recently saw a special on TV with hidden cameras where they would set up specific scenarios with actors and film how people would react.

One of those scenarios was a child being abducted. The child was kicking and screaming, people were looking but did nothing. The child screamed let me go you're not my daddy and things changed dramatically.

Bystanders were on their cell phones calling the police and a few men who were nearby ran to the childs assistance. If it were not for the cameras and television people running out and stopping them the "abductor" would have had a huge problem.

As a father, seeing a situation of that nature I would not hesitate. I can not imagine or wish the pain and suffering of having your child taken upon anyone. I could not live with myself for not intervening in such a scenario. It just goes against my personal beliefs, ethics and make up.

Same thing goes for rape, molestation ect.....

Some thing are just so wrong and morally repulsive that you just can't let them happen.

-Marc-

 

[DArnold]

Wow, I never thought I'd hear that from anyone on MT... but I suppose that just shows my naivety.
I feel sorry for you if you don't consider it your... not necessarily job, but responsibility. I feel that to be my job: lifelong, unpaid, but a job nevertheless.
Not to say I'm without reason. I won't go running into a situation if no good can possibly come of it, but most times we have to make a decision. And if someone's life depends on that decision, I'm willing to put mine at risk to preserve theirs, even if that seems stupid. If I saw a gang fight, I'd stay out of it... but someone trying to kidnap a child, or even someone beating on a dog... I'm gonna intervene if I feasibly can. Guess it's just a personality flaw that has nothing to do with karate... but I sure thought that as a MAist... more specifically a MartialArtHeart, my duty was to protect those around me.
It still is.

MartialArtHeart,
Don't be too down on him.

I threw this out as a hook knowing full well from the types of posts out here that someone would grab the bait.

One of the the things that TaeKwon-Do strives to teach is Moral Culture. At least those who care about their students and find that it is more mental than just kicking and punching.

Most people don't know that police (in the US) are not required to do what you think. They can not be held liable for not interveining or preventing a crime. Prevention is a misconception, as what criminal usualy waits to perpitrate a crime until the police are around. Most all of the time their job is to show up after, and pick up the pieces.

For those of you who say, "As long as I can stay safe, I will help", does the term cowardice mean anything. I just hope a family member never needs your help.

For those of you who say, "well I have a list I have to think about", the crime is over while you're sitting there thinking. You're going to attack me, well let me think about what I should do first.

For those of you who say, "It's the polices job" or any of the above, I hope you never need help while someone else sits there and ponders their excuses.

Does this seem harsh, nah.
Just watch the elections in the US today.
Society today leans toward thinking that it is the governments responsibility to solve their problems.

When you look at it that way, man, these debates are really interesting.
When you look at it as your problem, man, these candidates look like idiots.

That Democrats and Republicans, working togeather, will produce a law that will solve all your problems. HA HA HA HA HA

Just watch the news.
There isn't a crime commited today where the person commiting the crime claims, "It's not my fault"

It's socitey's
It's my upbringing
Ít's my parents
It's always someone elses fault...

In reality, the problems are simple, but you can move foreward or quibble over the answer until you prove the problem can't be solved (Social Security) Simple problems like the police and fire departments in New York that still don't have radios that communicate with each other or the proper training facilities. (after 9/11) Has the government solved this problem? No, you have people like Dennis Leary working on it instead.

If you would see people standing up to solve their problems instead of expecting government/police to, then a lot more of these problems would go away.

But there are soo many problems sometimes we tend to sit in our house and huddle and say, just leave me alone.

Yes their is a price tag.

But if you believe the above excuses, then don't venerate someone like the man who jumped on to the tracks in the subway to save anothers life in front of an oncomming traint to HERO. Or the military dying in Iraq in this police action.
Follow your logic, that you would use, and call them stupid fools for not thinking of themselves first.

In simple terms you will understand this the first time you need help. And I can almost guarentee you that it will not be the police to be there first.

Its to bad Civic duity is no longer taught to people.

 

[Doc_Jude]

The question of stepping in to help another had vexed many over the years. I myself have a fresh point of view every time this topic comes up. Just a few points:

- Martial arts should be used only for defense or in Self-defense
- Defense of what? Does it extend beyond the physical person?
- How do you define Self? When we start out in life, we are only a product of our genetic code, Nature over Nurture, a clean slate or Tabula Rasa so to speak.
- Our "Self" develops over time as we learn and grow into adults, contributing to our neighborhoods, our towns and cities, and our society.
- So, what is Self? Is it just you? or your family or friends? Is it also your neighborhood, or the peaceful, law-abiding citizens that live around you?
- Could Self be more abstract? Could it be the Ethical or Moral Code that you adhere to, if any? If you hold Truth, or Justice, or Personal Integrity close to your heart, are they any less than some integral part of your-Self?


With these things in mind, I think that anyone's view of Self would expand at least alittle. It reminds me of an old saying, I don't know where from:
There was no Justice before the Sword.

Just something to think about.

 

[Jdokan]

What does someone trying to kidnap a child look like?

a bloody pulp if I saw it happening.....

 

[Adept]

What does someone trying to kidnap a child look like?

Rather like an exasperated parent trying to get a willful child into the car, I imagine.

It's important to remember that things aren't always what they seem.

 

[Drac]

a bloody pulp if I saw it happening.....

That's MY kinda of attitude as well...Except I'll probably use my baton as well.."Honest Judge the crazy person attacked me and I was in fear of my life.".

 

[Andy Moynihan]

It is possible that I would.

 

[Doc_Jude]

Agreed.

 

[Carol]

Agreed too.

 

[bluemtn]

When I lived in the city, most muggings and other personal attacks that I saw were over with in a matter of seconds. The ones that weren't...well...I didn't stick around long enough to find out the outcome.

If a live situation happened with someone else...
AND
I could clearly see what was going on
AND
I could clearly tell that someone was genuinely being victimized
AND
It was clear that physical action would matter more than any other action (ie: calling 911)
AND
I was close enough to take that physical action
AND
Could do so in enough time to make a difference
AND
could do so without serious risk to my own health.

Then I may consider getting involved.

I'm with Carol's thoughts too, outside of family- especially when it comes to the kids and the elderly in my family!

 

[kidswarrior]

I don't think its that, many believe that somehow the "bad guys" will find out it was you that "dropped a dime on them" and seek revenge, that's if you're reporting a criminal act..

Well, I'm funny that way since I work with juvenile offenders. They themselves say, Don't do the crime if you can't do the time. And they all know I'll dime em out in a heartbeat if they deserve it. In fact, I'll often tell them I'm going to call, or I'm about to call. That goes for their older homies, too. I'll bend over backwards to help them, yeah, but I'll turn em in, too. So, they can come to my house if they want. We can have a nice chat--about how to stop being a loser and get their lives on the right track.

So, yeah, I give my name to the dispatcher up front.

 

[Drac]

So, yeah, I give my name to the dispatcher up front.

And I have never heard the dispatchers give a name of a reporting party over the air, they will usually ask officers to call dispatch for further info before responding.......

 

[Carol]

And I have never heard the dispatchers give a name of a reporting party over the air, they will usually ask officers to call dispatch for further info before responding.......

Telling the dispatcher your name protects you more than it harms you.

On my 12-1AM commute home, I've dropped a dime...a lot. I'd guesstimate that 33% of those calls are car accidents that I see while driving, the other 66% are suspicious activity reportings.

I always give the dispatcher my full name. If SHTF, I bloody well want dispatch to have a record documenting Carol Kaur from Salem, MA called 911 from her cell because of a suspicious situation BEFORE she had to fight. Calling anonymously doesn't document with the same strength.

 

[DArnold]

I don't think its that, many believe that somehow the "bad guys" will find out it was you that "dropped a dime on them" and seek revenge, that's if you're reporting a criminal act..

Boy and are you playing into their hands with a sentiment like that. That is exactly what they are hopeing you will do!

 

[Andy Moynihan]

Boy and are you playing into their hands with a sentiment like that. That is exactly what they are hopeing you will do!

And it's likely what a large percentage of the population will CONTINUE to do until the root of the problem is addressed and we stop condoning a system that punishes the innocent instead of the predators and stop condoning the authorities and the culture at large buying into the sentiment that "no good deed ever goes unpunished".

No amount of good intentions or moral rectitude, however admirable, will change anything until those things are changed first.

 

[Jdokan]

I guess I don't understand why we train then.....to be like the Warrior....Too many youtubes showing cops struggling with a felon and people walking by...that amazes me....get involved someday it may your loved one needing help....I don't see things as "my" family versus a stranger...I see things as good versus evil and when I don't stand up to evil then evil wins.....When evil wins enough and that becomes the norm we're in deep doo....I may not be the politically correct individual but there is one thing you can count on...you'll always know where I stand....I believe in John Wayne, Chuck Norris and everything good...
If I offend those more liberal..oh well......that's not my intention...