Respecting Other People's Beliefs

[K-man]

But many of us who do believe DO base our belief on facts and reason. Yes, there certainly is an ultimate leap of faith required -- but, in all honesty, atheists are making a similar leap at some point when they say that it's just random or that the universe just happened. One of the proofs of God's existence is called the First Cause or Uncaused Cause. In brief, if we follow events down the chain, each is caused by something previous -- but at some point, we reach a point where we can't attribute a cause. For momentary convenience, let's just jump all the way back to the big bang: what set it off? Another argument is that there is so much that has to go right to reach our current universe, something had to steer it. As I said elsewhere, I believe in a God who ordered the universe, and set it to work by rules that we can discern, understand, and use. But I can't look down the chain, and accept that it was nothing but chance.

Oh dear! You have just upset the fundamentalists.

Now the whole universe is a vast, interlocking chain of things that come into existence. Each of these things must therefore have a cause. My parents caused me, my grandparents caused them, et cetera. But it is not that simple. I would not be here without billions of causes, from the Big Bang through the cooling of the galaxies and the evolution of the protein molecule to the marriages of my ancestors. The universe is a vast and complex chain of causes. But does the universe as a whole have a cause? Is there a first cause, an uncaused cause, a transcendent cause of the whole chain of causes? If not, then there is an infinite regress of causes, with no first link in the great cosmic chain. If so, then there is an eternal, necessary, independent, self-explanatory being with nothing above it, before it, or supporting it. It would have to explain itself as well as everything else, for if it needed something else as its explanation, its reason, its cause, then it would not be the first and uncaused cause. Such a being would have to be God, of course. If we can prove there is such a first cause, we will have proved there is a God.

This is not what the Bible tells us.

I don't agree that faith is based on 'fact' and reason. You may be able to reason but 'fact' implies proof and if there was proof there would be no need for faith.

I'm really not sure where atheists fit in as they have no proof either. One of their biggest strengths is when members of any faith hang their arguement on something that is demonstrably false. No one can argue with certainty that God didn't set off the Big Bang, but they certainly can argue convincingly against the account of Creation in Genesis.

So sure, you can respect people's beliefs, but the beliefs need to be rational to deserve that respect.
:asian:

 

[Hong Kong Pooey]

So sure, you can respect people's beliefs, but the beliefs need to be rational to deserve that respect.
:asian:

I heartily concur!

 

[Hong Kong Pooey]

How do they get away with that?

My thoughts exactly, I always assumed South Park made it up.

 

[Steve]

But many of us who do believe DO base our belief on facts and reason. Yes, there certainly is an ultimate leap of faith required -- but, in all honesty, atheists are making a similar leap at some point when they say that it's just random or that the universe just happened. One of the proofs of God's existence is called the First Cause or Uncaused Cause. In brief, if we follow events down the chain, each is caused by something previous -- but at some point, we reach a point where we can't attribute a cause. For momentary convenience, let's just jump all the way back to the big bang: what set it off? Another argument is that there is so much that has to go right to reach our current universe, something had to steer it. As I said elsewhere, I believe in a God who ordered the universe, and set it to work by rules that we can discern, understand, and use. But I can't look down the chain, and accept that it was nothing but chance.

An argument for a first cause is not necessarily an argument for god.

For the rest, I think there's a difference between courtesy and respect. Respect is for people, not for beliefs. We can disagree with people whom we respect.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[ballen0351]

How do they get away with that?

What they are calling for is illegal if they actually do it but they can lobby for any law changes they want. Freedom of Speech sadly has its drawbacks. As long as they do admit to the act of sex with boys they have not broken the law

 

[Balrog]

I think when you make a statement "the Christian Bible has a fair amount of nonsense" you going to come off poorly to Christians and they are going to put up their guard. It comes off confrontational. I understand your point and don't believe your being confrontational but it does come off like that.

Not really. Most of them agree with you. Most Christians do not take the Adam and Eve story as factual, for example. A few do, but let's be realistic: those are the ones on the fringe to start with.

My take on it is this: I'm agnostic. I don't care what your religious beliefs are. Please keep them to yourself and I'll keep my viewpoint to myself. Now let's go do some sidekicks.

 

[ballen0351]

Not really. Most of them agree with you. Most Christians do not take the Adam and Eve story as factual, for example. A few do, but let's be realistic: those are the ones on the fringe to start with.
My take on it is this: I'm agnostic. I don't care what your religious beliefs are. Please keep them to yourself and I'll keep my viewpoint to myself. Now let's go do some sidekicks.

1 of the hundreds of parts in the Bible is hardly a Fair amount of the Bible and as your agnostic how do you know what most Christians believe?

 

[jks9199]

How do they get away with that?

Freedom of speech and freedom of assembly.

While I think what they attempt to justify is vile... I'm still called to see Christ in each of them, and to respect and honor the person and child of God within them. Not their beliefs, certainly not their practices.

 

[K-man]

Freedom of speech and freedom of assembly.

While I think what they attempt to justify is vile... I'm still called to see Christ in each of them, and to respect and honor the person and child of God within them. Not their beliefs, certainly not their practices.

Sorry but I would wish something far worse than that on them.

 

[jezr74]

I was reading this other thread and it got me wondering about certain things, but I didn't want to be accused of hijacking it so thought I'd start a new one with my own musings/questions.

This is the thread I am referring to:

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/85-philosophy-spirituality-arts/115235-did-man-make-god.html

It was the usual complaints about snide, sneering remarks made by the non-believers towards the faithful, and the complaints of self-righteous, sanctimony coming from the believers towards the infidels that got me thinking.

The nub of my question is, both on this forum and in wider society, am I really supposed to respect other people's beliefs?

Don't get me wrong, I absolutely respect other people's RIGHT to believe what they like as any modern-day right-thinking individual should, but I definitely have difficulty respecting some of the things that some people choose to believe.

My personal suspicion is that in reality not many people actually do respect the beliefs of other religions/groups/philosophies etc.

Do you Christians out there actually respect the beliefs of Mormons, for example? Or do you sneer and make snide remarks when discussing them with your fellow Christians?

Does anybody else really respect what Scientologists believe?

If I say I believe in the tooth fairy is everyone else bound to pretend they respect my belief?

Just as an example, in my opinion the Christian bible contains a fair degree of nonsense and feel I should be able to say so without being told that I can't because I'm somehow disrespecting somebody.

I also don't believe that people have the right not to be offended, but that's a whole other topic.

I'm genuinely interested to hear the thoughts of others on this whatever their religious persuasion, but if I've managed to offend any Christians already by using them in my examples then to quote the late, great Bill Hicks: "Forgive me"

I'm generally respectful, but don't give things respect until earned. But in discussions\debate I think everyone has a right to voice their opinions. If I don't like what I'm hearing I can drop off or meet the challenge. And likewise if someone doesn't like what I'm saying.

But it's all about the context. I wouldn't run into a dojo and start laughing at the practitioners if I didn't like their methods. If someone comes knocking at my door and won't leave after a respectful\civil interaction, the gloves are off imo. I don't care if your selling me encyclopedia Britannica or preaching. And as soon as you make claims, then it is open floor. But yeah, keep it civil if it's among friends or they are being civil as well. Nine times out of ten, I don't like to offend or hurt people. And I prefer to think that of others as well, until proven otherwise and then they become the 1 time out of 10.

 

[ks - learning to fly]

IMO - I think it comes down to the respect issue..respecting someone means you respect the right to have their own feelings, thoughts and beliefs. It doesn't mean you have to agree
with them - it simply means that they feel one way about certain issues and you - silently or vocally - can choose to agree or disagree.

Anecdote in relation to the thread: (true story ) - About 20 years ago, I had a couple of Jehovah's witnesses knock on my door - presumably to share their story and literature
from their religion. Although I was on my way out the door to go to work, I answered the door and asked if I could help them. Sure enough they told me of their desire to share and
discuss their literature and I said, "I would be absolutely willing to look at your literature if you take a look at mine". They agreed and I went back in the house, grabbed my Bible
and brought it back outside to where they were waiting and handed it to them. They simply smiled, handed it back and wished me a nice day. I also wished them a good day - they
left and I went to work.

 

[EddieCyrax]

I can not speak for Balrog.

I am agnostic, but was brought up Roman Catholic. Went to private Catholic school. Parents were/are strong Catholic believers.

Do not assume agnostics are not educated/familiar with others belief systems, many started at another point....

I have other issues with the bible which I will not discuss here, so as not to offend anyone.....

Now that we are done with sidekicks, on to roundhouse kicks...

 

[EddieCyrax]

As it relates to the OP.

It takes a multitude of fruits and nuts to make a fruit cake. Each one adds to the taste.....

I am no more fruity/nutty than the next person...

I respect their right to have an opinion even though mine differs.

 

[ballen0351]

I can not speak for Balrog.

I am agnostic, but was brought up Roman Catholic. Went to private Catholic school. Parents were/are strong Catholic believers.

Do not assume agnostics are not educated/familiar with others belief systems, many started at another point....

And don't assume the same about Christians as we all didn't start out that way either

 

[EddieCyrax]

And don't assume the same about Christians as we all didn't start out that way either

Never have.....I have a whole family of Christians.....Love them all....

 

[RTKDCMB]

It takes a multitude of fruits and nuts to make a fruit cake. Each one adds to the taste.....

I am no more fruity/nutty than the next person...

Oh there are plenty of fruitcakes around.