Respectfuly declining a rank advancement?

[Laurentkd]

Wow - careful, you're starting to sound a little threatened and petty

Clearly you need to step out of your "planet" and spend more time with kids, they can do some amazing things. Many elite athletes began training at age 3-5, it's the beginning of the journey. So what if it improves motor skills, it also fosters interest in MA and helps them with basic skills, language, respect and history. My preschooler adores her classes and can do a roundhouse kick with far more accuracy and flexibility than a couple of newcomers to my adult class! This is why they have poom instead of dan. Kids learn far faster than "we" do and can pick up things with far more accuracy.

See I think you have to really define what you are teaching to 4-6 year olds. I personally teach this age groups (affectionately called "little ninjas") and we call everything we do pre-taekwondo. They don't learn forms or self-defense (in the traditional sense). Instead they spend about 6 months on three different kicks, strikes, blocks, and stances and then another set for another 6 months and so on for two years. They also learn "self-defense" such as knowing your home phone number, knowing that adults will not ask a child for help (ex: looking for a puppy), etc. Our program is designed so that after at least two years these kids are ready to go into the real Taekwondo class. The Little ninjas are awarded belts, and even a little ninja black belt, but this is not recognized as any sort of Taekwondo rank, it is not a poom and it definitely doesn't get a Kukkiwon certificate. A LN black belt just means you are ready to be a REAL white belt. I have found this to be a great system for kids because by the time they are 12 (and now a poom black belt) they have been doing basic techniques for 8 years, so they are going to be better off then a kid who starts at 10. But at the same time I don't feel like I am sacrificing my art by promoting a 5 year old in the same way I would promote a 25 year old.
Everyone has to find what works for them though.

 

[YoungMan]

Great that you found a system that works for you as far as teaching kids. However, when my new class begins next week, the flyers make it plain that I teach nobody younger than 12 and this is the way it shall stay. I've seen enough 6 year old kids playing at Tae Kwon Do to make me realize this is not where I want to go.

 

[Mark Lynn]

I'm currently a purple belt and have been only for a short time.

There was a belt test last night and I went so I could get out of the house, and because it's always fun to watch. I declined to test - I didn't return my test request sheet, didn't pay for a test, told the instructors I wasn't ready yet and wanted to wait until I was good enough and had more sparring experience, etc. I think they tested me anyhow :/ They called on me to do my poomsae 4 and 5 (not as well as I would have liked), strength and flexibility demonstrations, some kick combinations (again, not as good as I would have liked) and they even paired me with a black belt for sparring. I sucked, but it was still fun. They generally run tests every 6 weeks to accommodate people who have to be away, so they don't have to wait another few months (there are lots of kids at my dojang). For some reason, I keep getting tested far too frequently :/ I do go to class 6 days/week, but still the experience and muscle memory isn't there.

I'm pretty sure that they don't call on non-testing students to run through the test and I'm worried that my rank may advance again - WAY sooner than it should. I feel like I am light years away from deserving a blue belt. It seems that Grandmaster's strategy with me - and no one else that I can see - is to advance my rank before I have fully earned it, so I can work my tail off to demonstrate that I deserve it - and I do, but I feel like the rank should come after demonstrating that it has been earned through hard work and experience, right? He has even double promoted me before.

I am hoping that it was just an exercise, or a test to test later, but in case it wasn't, how can I respectfully decline a rank advancement if I feel like I really don't deserve it?

faerie2

After reading this thread last night, IMHO I think you need to lighten up some. You are putting way to much tought and or worry about this.

First off I believe as others have stated that you shouldn't decline the rank if they tested you. You as the student might think you are not ready, however if the instructor decides that you are then you should test.

I take it that you are trusting what the instructor teaches you, say in the area of self defense, or in the application of this move or that move. If he uses you as a demo partner you would trust him not to hurt you, if he wanted to show the class a head twist takedown and he picked you to demonstrate on would you say "No I don't trust your judgement"? If he picked you to apply the technique (or any technique) to him would you say "No I don't trust your judgement of me"? And if not, why then wouldn't you trust his judgement on whether or not you are ready to test? The instructor has watched you in class perfrom many more times then what you have to do on a test, they know if you can meet their standards. You should trust their judgement and relax about it.

A student who trains six days a week is going to advance rather quickly, for the most part they will advance more quickly than a person who is practicing say two times a week. But other factors also come into play, age, ability, genitics, etc. etc. But all things considered equal a person will promote quicker.

The double promoting thing I wouldn't worry about, from the posts you posted. I don't get the idea that your instructor is just trying to soak you for more funds. So I tend to think that you have learned the material and he felt that you showed skill level of the rank that he awarded you. THERE IS NOTHING WORNG WITH THIS. I allow double promotions for the begining belts in our program because in order to allow the children to believe they are progressing, belts were added to the rank structure years ago. (And to be fair to drive up test fees as well in some schools.) So when I came up there was Orange belt, now the first belt is Yellow then Gold then Orange. But if I have a student who learns the material for Yellow and I don't have a test scheduled then I go on to teach them the other material and they test for the rank they are ready for. And I don't charge them any more $$$ for test.

Now for the hard part. I sense a bit of insecurity in your posts. Perhaps a bit of being insecure of your skills and abilities. There is a lot of "I declined to test", "not as good as I would have liked", and "I sucked", on this one you really need to lighten up it was a black belt you were sparring, you won't look good against them. Your instructors probably wanted to see how you would handle yourself against a more advanced opponent. In your later posts you even make some fun of yourself with your worrying, like you recognize that you are worrying about it to much while your instructor probably hasn't thought about it. He probably hasn't to tell you the truth.

Many instructors would love to have students come to class, work hard and not worry about advancing in rank. That in and of itself shows a maturity that we as instructors would love to have in students, and one that would probably advance more quickly through the ranks, or possibly not if the intructor wasn't concerned about rank either. But either way the student still has to have faith in their instructor that they are not trying to do the student harm (or wrong). So have faith in him and in your abilities and in your rank whatever that may be.

Mark

 

[faerie2]

Boar Man,

Thanks for your response - I TOTALLY agree that I need to lighten up about the whole thing. I'm just worried that I may have offended GM by not accepting the test at worst, and at best possibly confused him. Hearing the thoughtful responses posted here has certainly given me a lot to think about (and seeing that others here need to lighten up a little too).

I do trust my instructors, and their opinion of my readiness - although it's sometimes hard to swallow. I'm a work at home mom, and have been self employed for 17 years. I'm not used to being directly evaluated in any way, let alone having someone think that I'm good enough to test so frequently, so I was focused on "well, maybe he just promoting me because of XYZ". It just takes getting used to that someone believes in my abilities. It takes a lot for me to be proud of my accomplishments instead of feeling like they are flawed somehow.

 

[igillman]

Sometimes we can be hardest on ourselves when it comes to what abilities we see. We compare ourselves to others and see that they are better than us. What we fail to see is that we compare ourselves to more than one person. He is better than me at forms, she is better than me at sparring, that other person is better than me at breaking. Of course we think we are bad, we are comparing ourselves (one person) against the best qualities of three or more other people. Who wouldn't look bad in that situation?

 

[IcemanSK]

I've looked at many, but all posts. What was the outcome of this for you? Did your instructor hand you new rank? Did he charge you for it? Has it said anything to you about this since your OP?


What has happened?

 

[terryl965]

I've looked at many, but all posts. What was the outcome of this for you? Did your instructor hand you new rank? Did he charge you for it? Has it said anything to you about this since your OP?


What has happened?

Good questions

 

[faerie2]

I've looked at many, but all posts. What was the outcome of this for you? Did your instructor hand you new rank? Did he charge you for it? Has it said anything to you about this since your OP?


What has happened?

I don't find out anything until the dojang opens up again on Sept 2 that's why I'm being such a basket case about it - I not only don't have my outlet, but I have to sit here and stew about it all for another week!

I will certainly let you all know what happens next Tuesday. Stupid holidays

 

[IcemanSK]

I don't find out anything until the dojang opens up again on Sept 2 that's why I'm being such a basket case about it - I not only don't have my outlet, but I have to sit here and stew about it all for another week!

I will certainly let you all know what happens next Tuesday. Stupid holidays

Ok, here's something that will help: Stretch for 15 minutes, go over each form 10 times, do 20 push-ups & 50 crunches, finish by stretching.

If that doesn't relax you a bit, I'm sure Kacey, Kwanjang & Terry have some other suggestions

Thanks for the update. Relax & breathe deep. Time will pass.

 

[faerie2]

Ok, here's something that will help: Stretch for 15 minutes, go over each form 10 times, do 20 push-ups & 50 crunches, finish by stretching.

If that doesn't relax you a bit, I'm sure Kacey, Kwanjang & Terry have some other suggestions

Thanks for the update. Relax & breathe deep. Time will pass.

HA! I have been - well, maybe not 10 times each - I don't actually have room in or around my tiny house to do them properly without running into a wall, or Jolly Jumper, but the crunches, stretches and pushups, yes!! That and a 10km walk every day (my usual thing). We have a heavy bag in the basement, but it's a low basement, so I can't do any jumping kicks. My husband is even out of town until late for the rest of the week, so I can't even get him to hold a target for me :wah:

ANy other suggestions to pass the next week would be greatly welcome!

 

[Svart]

Eat many fatty foods and a few seals then hibernate.

 

[Cirdan]

Wow - careful, you're starting to sound a little threatened and petty

Clearly you need to step out of your "planet" and spend more time with kids, they can do some amazing things. Many elite athletes began training at age 3-5, it's the beginning of the journey. So what if it improves motor skills, it also fosters interest in MA and helps them with basic skills, language, respect and history. My preschooler adores her classes and can do a roundhouse kick with far more accuracy and flexibility than a couple of newcomers to my adult class! This is why they have poom instead of dan. Kids learn far faster than "we" do and can pick up things with far more accuracy.

I spend 3 hrs evry week training with and teaching kids, clearly I need more? Nothing wrong with improving motor skills, but a minimum of those is a requirement for starting to learn MA, it should not be what you need to grade for black belt even a junior one. Kids might pick up some moves faster than adults because they have less to unlearn, however if I would try to teach a four year old (who would have started a 3) the concepts of rooting and proper structure in a stance I would no doubt meet with little sucess. An adult who has a year of regular training will be more receptive. I will say it again, 6 yr old blackbelts only exist for one reason only; money.

 

[Mark Lynn]

Boar Man,

Thanks for your response - I TOTALLY agree that I need to lighten up about the whole thing. I'm just worried that I may have offended GM by not accepting the test at worst, and at best possibly confused him. Hearing the thoughtful responses posted here has certainly given me a lot to think about (and seeing that others here need to lighten up a little too).

I do trust my instructors, and their opinion of my readiness - although it's sometimes hard to swallow. I'm a work at home mom, and have been self employed for 17 years. I'm not used to being directly evaluated in any way, let alone having someone think that I'm good enough to test so frequently, so I was focused on "well, maybe he just promoting me because of XYZ". It just takes getting used to that someone believes in my abilities. It takes a lot for me to be proud of my accomplishments instead of feeling like they are flawed somehow.

faerie2

Good post. Now I believe you are getting somewhere. Instead of sounding whiney and inscure you sound more like the mature woman that you probably are. Being employed while at home, running a house, being a mom, and training 6 days a week, that is an accomplishment in and of itself. From the sounds of it you are a driven goal oriented individual who is not use to having someone else grading them, and who finds themself in awkward situation. Best thing to do then is relax and enjoy the break from class and don't fret over it.

If the instructors promote you then trust in their judgement accept the rank and pay the fee. As others have posted, work hard to be the best you can be in the new rank and the next time you know what not to do. This is one small faux paw in your martial arts life, I'm sure there will be others. (we all have them) And I'm sure your instructor will understand and know your a good student didn't mean any harm or ill intent by your actions.

While you having time off, enjoy the kids, or work on something different that doesn't take a lot of room (since it sounded lke you are space constrained) like breaking down your forms into a self defense situation. Or practice your forms outside, I use to practice mine in parks all of the time. Just some random thoughts.

Mark

 

[faerie2]

I spend 3 hrs evry week training with and teaching kids, clearly I need more? Nothing wrong with improving motor skills, but a minimum of those is a requirement for starting to learn MA, it should not be what you need to grade for black belt even a junior one. Kids might pick up some moves faster than adults because they have less to unlearn, however if I would try to teach a four year old (who would have started a 3) the concepts of rooting and proper structure in a stance I would no doubt meet with little sucess. An adult who has a year of regular training will be more receptive. I will say it again, 6 yr old blackbelts only exist for one reason only; money.

That's like saying we shouldn't bother teaching preschoolers their alphabet because they couldn't possibly understand the complexities of Shakespeare. We all start somewhere, why not there? Of course the schools make money from 6 year old black belts, they make money from 40 year old black belts too. Maybe where you train doesn't require bills to be paid, or the instructors to earn money, but from what I understand (as a lowly n00b) not many dojangs invite people to train for free. My kid loves her classes, she learns a lot and has made some friends, as far as I'm concerned, it's money well spent.

 

[granfire]

not to muddle the waters with the BB kid discussion. But I think I have seen enough of the kids to see that most just can't do the BB thing ever, no matter how hard they train. But that should not exclude the rare one that actually has the mental and physical capabilities to achieve this feat by the tender age of 6.

But that also does not mean that the kid won't burn out before he's ten...

And I do remember seeing a demonstration of Shaolin Monks were 2 5/6 y/o boys stood with one leg straight up in the air for an extended period of time.

Would I do that to my child? hellz no. but it's possible I guess (which also does not tell the story of the kids that have not the talent and stay back and do KP at the monestery...)

 

[Kacey]

Wow - careful, you're starting to sound a little threatened and petty

Clearly you need to step out of your "planet" and spend more time with kids, they can do some amazing things. Many elite athletes began training at age 3-5, it's the beginning of the journey. So what if it improves motor skills, it also fosters interest in MA and helps them with basic skills, language, respect and history. My preschooler adores her classes and can do a roundhouse kick with far more accuracy and flexibility than a couple of newcomers to my adult class! This is why they have poom instead of dan. Kids learn far faster than "we" do and can pick up things with far more accuracy.

This is a subject of much discussion in other threads - particularly this one: 5 year old black belts? Rather than derail this thread, which is about your testing questions, you might go read that one - there's a long and detailed discussion already there.

Ok, here's something that will help: Stretch for 15 minutes, go over each form 10 times, do 20 push-ups & 50 crunches, finish by stretching.

If that doesn't relax you a bit, I'm sure Kacey, Kwanjang & Terry have some other suggestions

Thanks for the update. Relax & breathe deep. Time will pass.

HA! I have been - well, maybe not 10 times each - I don't actually have room in or around my tiny house to do them properly without running into a wall, or Jolly Jumper, but the crunches, stretches and pushups, yes!! That and a 10km walk every day (my usual thing). We have a heavy bag in the basement, but it's a low basement, so I can't do any jumping kicks. My husband is even out of town until late for the rest of the week, so I can't even get him to hold a target for me :wah:

ANy other suggestions to pass the next week would be greatly welcome!

Patterns... there are all sorts of ways you can do patterns (forms, kata, tul, whatever you call them). Do them regular speed... half speed... double speed... hands only (no stances/stepping - you'll find out just how well you do - or don't - know the pattern)... stances only (like the previous one - you'll find out how well you do or don't know the pattern)... dynamic tension (with your muscles tensed against themselves - that one's quite a workout)... in a box (do the entire pattern in the space of one stance - jumping from stance to stance - that one's a good workout too).

Instead of single kicks, do multiple kicks - do the same kick 2, 3, 4 times - but to different targets, without putting your foot down in between. Do consecutive kicks (2+ different kicks with the same leg without putting your foot down). Do combination kicks (2+ different kicks while alternating legs). Combine hand and foot techniques. Create step sparring routines and practice them without a partner - work on stances, focus, preparatory motions, whatever your instructor teaches. Shadow spar instead of shadow box.

That ought to keep you busy for a few minutes, at least!

 

[Cirdan]

That's like saying we shouldn't bother teaching preschoolers their alphabet because they couldn't possibly understand the complexities of Shakespeare.

No, what I am saying is that it is neccecary to know most of the letters in the alphabet before reading a book. Shakespeare can wait.


Anyway, do tou think it is possible that your your instructor wants you to teach class and therefore grades you fast? With your background and obvious dedication I can see you would be the perfect candidate.

 

[Windsinger]

hands only (no stances/stepping - you'll find out just how well you do - or don't - know the pattern)... stances only (like the previous one - you'll find out how well you do or don't know the pattern)... dynamic tension (with your muscles tensed against themselves - that one's quite a workout)... in a box (do the entire pattern in the space of one stance - jumping from stance to stance - that one's a good workout too)

I think I'm going to add that to my practise time. Especially the hands only/stances only. That sounds like a great way to learn the patterns. Thanks, Kacey!

 

[faerie2]

Patterns... there are all sorts of ways you can do patterns (forms, kata, tul, whatever you call them). Do them regular speed... half speed... double speed... hands only (no stances/stepping - you'll find out just how well you do - or don't - know the pattern)... stances only (like the previous one - you'll find out how well you do or don't know the pattern)... dynamic tension (with your muscles tensed against themselves - that one's quite a workout)... in a box (do the entire pattern in the space of one stance - jumping from stance to stance - that one's a good workout too).

Instead of single kicks, do multiple kicks - do the same kick 2, 3, 4 times - but to different targets, without putting your foot down in between. Do consecutive kicks (2+ different kicks with the same leg without putting your foot down). Do combination kicks (2+ different kicks while alternating legs). Combine hand and foot techniques. Create step sparring routines and practice them without a partner - work on stances, focus, preparatory motions, whatever your instructor teaches. Shadow spar instead of shadow box.

That ought to keep you busy for a few minutes, at least!

Those are great suggestions, I will work on those - thanks!!

 

[faerie2]

No, what I am saying is that it is neccecary to know most of the letters in the alphabet before reading a book. Shakespeare can wait.


Anyway, do tou think it is possible that your your instructor wants you to teach class and therefore grades you fast? With your background and obvious dedication I can see you would be the perfect candidate.

A few people I know in person have asked me that too, but I'm pretty sure GM knows I already have my hands full with two small kids, a business and a husband with an unpredictable work schedule. He already has his two sons, nephew and two other instructors (2nd to 5th Dan ) as instructors - all adults ftr . It is possible, I suppose, but I couldn't picture it.