Reperations

[Bob Hubbard]

Originally posted by arnisador
Aren't they our own too?

I'd say yes, but they think differently.

To me, its no different than sending a few billion tons of food over seas. Sooner or later, you need for them to care for themselves.

The whole 'give a man a fish, you feed him for a day. Teach him to fish, and you feed him forever'.

Of course, he still needs to get up, pick up his pole, walk down to the river and put some time in it to see results.

What good is giving him the fish if he never does more than takes the handout?

 

[chufeng]

Another analogy is that of "Henny Penny" a story I learned in Kindergarten some 40 years ago:

No one wanted to help Henny Penny plant, water, weed, harvest, or mill the grain...but each was more than willing to eat the bread.

:asian:
chufeng

 

[rmcrobertson]

Of course, the modern version of this story adds that, "After the man had learned how to fish, he became very excited and went home to teach all of his friends and fellow villagers! But when they went out to fish, the first atoll they visited had been used for a-bomb tests by the French, so they couldn't fish there. When they went to the next atoll, they fished and fished but they caught nothing. After a week, they found out that Red Lobster corporation had been there, and they'd taken everything. So they decided to try deep-sea fishing, which they'd read about, but it turned out that Japanese long-line tuna boats had taken all those fish too. So, tired and discouraged, they returned back home, only to find that everyone who had lived in their poor, but happy village was gone. They found a note that said everybody had gone to find jobs in the big city in fast-food fish restaurants, except for two families that insisted on staying. They were shot by government-backed death squads, after they refused to sell their ancestral land to a couple of Anglo-American consortium that wanted to harvest the forest's lumber and then open a tuna cannery. This discouraged the fishermen so much that they too went to the big city, where they looked and looked for their families. One was killed in a mugging, and two more caught AIDS, but the last fisherman opened a porno theater in Bangkok, and employed so many 14-year-old children that he became rich and powerful. Till the end of his days, he always told long, nostalgic stories about the good old days and how much he owed the people who had taught him to fish."

 

[Bob Hubbard]

ouch.

I detect some sarcasm in there, however......I can see the truth there too.

:asian:

 

[chufeng]

Sarcasm? yes...Truth? yes...relevance to this issue? NOT


This post is addressed to anyone who would exploit the system so they don't have to work...regardless of race.


We are not talking about deep sea fishing off of an atoll...it is an analogy used to show how it is better to show someone how to be self-sufficient, rather than relying on others for their every need...the nuclear issue and Long-net issues are topics for other threads.

Relying on others, when you are fully capable of providing for yourself is a drain on EVERYONE...

Relying on others, when you can make significant contributions is LAZY...

Teaching your children to rely on others is a CRIME against everything that a parent ought to do: "raise a productive and responsible citizen." If you don't think being a citizen is a GOOD thing, then go somewhere else...regardless of race...

We may not be perfect, but where else is it better?

:asian:
chufeng

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by chufeng
Sarcasm? yes...Truth? yes...relevance to this issue? NOT


This post is addressed to anyone who would exploit the system so they don't have to work...regardless of race.


We are not talking about deep sea fishing off of an atoll...it is an analogy used to show how it is better to show someone how to be self-sufficient, rather than relying on others for their every need...the nuclear issue and Long-net issues are topics for other threads.

Relying on others, when you are fully capable of providing for yourself is a drain on EVERYONE...

Relying on others, when you can make significant contributions is LAZY...

Teaching your children to rely on others is a CRIME against everything that a parent ought to do: "raise a productive and responsible citizen." If you don't think being a citizen is a GOOD thing, then go somewhere else...regardless of race...

We may not be perfect, but where else is it better?

:asian:
chufeng

GREAT POST!!!!!

 

[Touch Of Death]

The teach a man to fish analogy can be fitting. Lets look at what is happening. Until now polititions tried to sweep the race issue under the rug by sending a welfare check. It actualy didn't burden the economy that bad based on percentages; however, this solution created generational welfare. I guess that is the giving the fish part. Now if we aggressivly send prommising black youths through college and allow them to get a foothold in the skilled work force. I call that teaching them to fish. Of course, without a strong moral code most would rather wait for the check. Since this is America we cant let them starve so you make the choice. affirmative action or welfare state. In the mean time your tax dollars will be building more prisons... lots of prisons. Weve got two here in Spokane and we don't even have a large black population.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Ok, I think I'm in agreement with you here...

My question is though, -how- do we get them to go? There are grants available that sit unused each year. Colleges have 'quotas' on minority students that result in seats being unused due to a lack of applicants.

Let us not forget, to qualify for college, they must first get through highschool, and that seems to be where the problem lies. Too few are finishing HS, or bothering to get a GED. Too often, people see the quick $ to be made in the illegal areas, don't weigh the real costs, and each day, we bury more of our future, or lock it away where it gets older and bitterer, but more often than not, not any wiser.

My beliefs is that we need a multiple prong attack.

-upgrade the inferstructure.
-get better teachers and facilities
-ensure the assistance programs are in place.

AND

-give them positive role models they can relate to.

The later needs to come from within. I doubt highly that the average 'black' teen will identify with Ross Perot. Les Brown on the other hand, if a better candidate. We need more Les Browns.

They need a way to keep their identiy while improving themselves. I just disagree that 'free' money is the way. A better system needs to be in place all around.

:asian:

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by chufeng
everything that a parent ought to do: "raise a productive and responsible citizen."

I tell my children that this is my job and goal in just about those words--but I add in "happy" as well.

 

[rmcrobertson]

Oh, sorry, but it's pretty freakin' relevant.

Try this. When I started college, there were all sorts of grants and loans available. I got through college on very little--grad school on even less--but because I had a) a solid family background that pushed learning and books, b) I lived in a nice place with a University down the street, c) there were low-cost loans available, and work-study, and grants, d) the IRS left students alone, I made it. And yes, I worked my tail off--if you can believe that.

The year after I left grad school, the Reagan government changed the IRS regs. Instead of paying no taxes because I was living and working way below the poverty line, my fellow students suddenly got hit with tax bills for 30,000/year incomes--they were taxed as though their tuition and fee-waivers were incomes. Where were they supposed to get the loot? Their actual "take home," pay, incidentally, was between 333 and 667/month, which is what I'd been living on. And I was lucky...my grad school backed everybody up. But now...taxed. Think that doesn't make any difference?

I'm not even getting into the infinity of other things that have made a college education at a decent school harder to obtain. But if y'all actually think it's a meritocracy out there, you're living in a dream world--and it isn't because "they" have all the positions either.

Learn to fish? sure. Try to find a job fishing, that's the problema...I'm still dying to see some facts, somewhere in all this...basically, I'm seeing a lot of urban legends...

PS: You guys brought up the damn fish thing. I prefer to talk about actual people and material reality, so that folks don't disappear behind truisms and generalizations.

 

[Nightingale]

the problem with getting better teachers...

teachers don't want to work in a place where they stand a reasonable chance of getting shot at.

teachers don't want to work in a place that has classrooms but no textbooks or desks.

teachers don't want to work in a place in which the building is condemned, yet the school remains open because there is nowhere else to send the students.

teachers don't want to work in a place where they witness drug deals in the hallways.

teachers don't want to work in a place where they have no support from the parents or the community.

teachers don't want to work in a place where they do more babysitting than educating.

---
Teachers go to these inner city and rural schools when they can't get a job elsewhere. There are a few idealists who go there willingly, but even they tend to burn out in a few years, or, once they've got experience, transfer to a more pleasant environment.

I read this story in an Education magazine, and thought I'd share.


Teacher Feature...
The Blueberry Story: The teacher gives the businessman a lesson

by Jamie Robert Vollmer



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"If I ran my business the way you people operate your schools, I wouldn't be in business very long!"
I stood before an auditorium filled with outraged teachers who were becoming angrier by the minute. My speech had entirely consumed their precious 90 minutes of inservice. Their initial icy glares had turned to restless agitation. You could cut the hostility with a knife.

I represented a group of business people dedicated to improving public schools. I was an executive at an ice cream company that became famous in the middle1980s when People Magazine chose our blueberry as the "Best Ice Cream in America."

I was convinced of two things. First, public schools needed to change; they were archaic selecting and sorting mechanisms designed for the industrial age and out of step with the needs of our emerging "knowledge society". Second, educators were a major part of the problem: they resisted change, hunkered down in their feathered nests, protected by tenure and shielded by a bureaucratic monopoly. They needed to look to business. We knew how to produce quality. Zero defects! TQM! Continuous improvement!

In retrospect, the speech was perfectly balanced - equal parts ignorance and arrogance.

As soon as I finished, a woman's hand shot up. She appeared polite, pleasant -- she was, in fact, a razor-edged, veteran, high school English teacher who had been waiting to unload.

She began quietly, "We are told, sir, that you manage a company that makes good ice cream."

I smugly replied, "Best ice cream in America, Ma'am."

"How nice," she said. "Is it rich and smooth?"

"Sixteen percent butterfat," I crowed.

"Premium ingredients?" she inquired.

"Super-premium! Nothing but triple A." I was on a roll. I never saw the next line coming.

"Mr. Vollmer," she said, leaning forward with a wicked eyebrow raised to the sky, "when you are standing on your receiving dock and you see an inferior shipment of blueberries arrive, what do you do?"

In the silence of that room, I could hear the trap snap…. I was dead meat, but I wasn't going to lie.

"I send them back."

"That's right!" she barked, "and we can never send back our blueberries. We take them big, small, rich, poor, gifted, exceptional, abused, frightened, confident, homeless, rude, and brilliant. We take them with ADHD, junior rheumatoid arthritis, and English as their second language. We take them all! Every one! And that, Mr. Vollmer, is why it's not a business. It's school!"

In an explosion, all 290 teachers, principals, bus drivers, aides, custodians and secretaries jumped to their feet and yelled, "Yeah! Blueberries! Blueberries!"

And so began my long transformation.

Since then, I have visited hundreds of schools. I have learned that a school is not a business. Schools are unable to control the quality of their raw material, they are dependent upon the vagaries of politics for a reliable revenue stream, and they are constantly mauled by a howling horde of disparate, competing customer groups that would send the best CEO screaming into the night.

None of this negates the need for change. We must change what, when, and how we teach to give all children maximum opportunity to thrive in a post-industrial society. But educators cannot do this alone; these changes can occur only with the understanding, trust, permission and active support of the surrounding community. For the most important thing I have learned is that schools reflect the attitudes, beliefs and health of the communities they serve, and therefore, to improve public education means more than changing our schools, it means changing America.

Reprinted with permission from the March 6, 2002 issue of Education Week

Copyright 2002, by Jamie Robert Vollmer

 

[chufeng]

but I add in "happy" as well.

Good for you !!!

I actually have found a job that I love...it ain't about money, it's about making a difference in someone else's life...it's about being true to my core beliefs...and anyone who can find that job (regardless of what it is) will always be happy.

But, I busted my *** to get here...it didn't happen overnight...it didn't happen in five years...it happened over many years...I set a goal and I focused on accomplishing that goal...evberyone has the same right and ability...I'm not special...but I am an example of what hard work can do, in terms of payoff...

:asian:
chufeng

 

[chufeng]

Nightengale...

Excellent post..."we can't send our blueberries back..."

So, how do we make a bad blueberries acceptable to the marketplace they will find themselves in?
Not by throwing money at them...

:asian:
chufeng

 

[chufeng]

but the last fisherman opened a porno theater in Bangkok, and employed so many 14-year-old children that he became rich and powerful.

???

Oh, sorry, but it's pretty freakin' relevant.

You got some 'splainin' to do Lucy...

MC,

How does your story relate to today's situation? Your story is full of "victimization" instead of empowerment. Your examples talk of forces no one in this forum can control...

Everyone here would be at a loss to deal with nuclear fallout...
The Longnet fishing is a matter for the government NOT a high-school or entry-level college student...

Where in your post do you show US how to improve the situation? Nowhere...you would have us prolong the "woe is me..." attitude and continue propagating "victims."

Sorry...I completely reject your idea...I think anyone CAN do what he or she wants IF he/she has the balls/intestinal-fortitude to tough it out.

:asian:
chufeng

 

[Touch Of Death]

I know we build blueberry prisons and hire good bluberries to supervise bad blueberries. Nobody votes for reparations but everyone votes to get tough on crime. forget the welfare check lets spend about $50,000 a year per inmate. Infact lets spend a few hundred thousand dollars to execute the really bad blueberries to send a message to all the other blueberries. Everybody seems to be against throwing money at the problem but it seems we already are; however are money goes to the symtoms rather than the cure.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

ok ToD...so, what is your sollution?

 

[Touch Of Death]

!. A total revamping of the criminal justice system
2. Free college for all Americans but i'll settle for just the black community.
3. aggressive tageting of problem kindercare... blueberries(white or black) It would be cheaper than building them a cell for adulthood.
4. Pay teachers what they are worth. Lets put corporate welfare where it belongs (in the schools) not in off shore cororate accounts.
5. Start investing in the future instead of staving it off.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

ok.

I'm with ya so far. Personally, I'd love to go back to school...much easier if I didnt have to come up with 10k+ to do it. I know many others who feel similarly.

Any sollution must be equetable (sp) across the board to stay most claims of bias, etc. (There will always be some, but if done right, can be minimized, I think)


one question.
How would you deal with the high dropout rate in HS?
Putting the best teachers, equipment and facilities in place is not enough. What must we do to encourage the students to show up, apply themselves, and go the distance?

 

[Nightingale]

improve school/home communication.

Require parents by law to show up at PTA meetings, and require businesses to give them paid time off to do it. Run the same school busses that get the kids from home to school to get the parents from home to the meetings and back again. Same for parent teacher conferences.

Make students and parents aware of options and opportunities, and assist them. Many of these parents have never filled out a loan application... how are they supposed to help their child fill out the FAFSA, bank loan papers, and other forms in order to secure college funding, when many of the parents themselves are functionally illiterate?

Make parents aware of things such as free adult GED classes. Encourage the parents to get an education, as well as the students.

A child learns his or her value system from his or her parents. If the parents place little value on education, the child will mimic this. The trick is to get the parents to value education as an opportunity rather than a burden.

 

[J-kid]

Why should just the black commuinity get free college? ToD?

That is racist? what about everyone else>?