Rich Parsons said:
My Apologies Rob,
I worked on some issues for work over the weekend, and also I am busy with it today. I hope to be done in the next day or so with the latest crisis.
Note: ** Not a real crisis, just takes time to resolve, and work through, no matter what other people think.
Then I will disassemble both techniques.
Rob et al,
My Delayed response:
The Original question:
Modern Arnis empty hand seems to be heavily influenced by Wally Jay's Small circle ju jitsu (scjj). MA locks and take downs seem (to me) to have a more ju jitsu flavour than other FMAs. What was MA empty hand like before Prof. met Wally Jay?
Vince
Black Grass
If you look at the Practical Art of Escrima, (* My apologies, the first edition copy I had is gone, I did pick up a second edition, and the date was Copy Right 1994, but it obviously, is based from the first book *) I find that the empty hand portion is as stated previously, that the motions were larger and were used to control the body and lock the elbow and the shoulder or the head, while the small joint lock motions that are seen later in time, attack more of the wrist and fingers. This by no means, there were no wrist locks in the early portion of the system for they are there as you review the self defense and other techniques.
It is all the same
If you look at the “It is all the same”, then you see the same techniques and strategy applied to the larger joint can also be applied to the smaller joints for desired effect.
As to the “pink book” aka Modern Arnis “Stick Fighting”, you also see the larger motions and attacks to the larger joints, although more often with a stick in your hand then just plain empty hands. Just another example of the “it is the same”, in application.
As to who created the approach or concept of it is all the same, I will leave that for the historians to argue about, and my expectation is that it will be found back in a much further time then in recent history or recent century or two.
Results Based
As to PaulÂ’s post, I think that it was fine and represented a good point of view. I liked it. When Paul has stated things inane or insane, I have told him before and in person or over the phone. No problems disagreeing with him. Also as I know Paul, I do not see his age as an issue, nor do I see hidden agendas by him to degrade Modern Arnis. I am not defending Paul, only explaining how I read his post.
What I saw in his post was that Balintawak does not have a developed Empty Hands system, which I have also stated before. It is there, and it is taught and or shown in the “it is the same” manner, even if you have to adjust to location on the body since it is now empty hands versus stick to stick or …,. So, the empty hands are there, for the intuitive and experienced students who can take the applications and translate them.
As to Modern Arnis and results based, I did not see this as a slam on Modern Arnis. Some people at some seminars or camps were just after techniques, others thought the drill was the end of it all. Yet, if you talk to those who have a title or name recognition in Modern Arnis, they should from my experience, know and instruct that the drill is the drill, and there is more, and it can be covered, or addressed as time goes by, and when the student is ready to learn. The integration of drill to drill and the understanding of the concepts of that allow for this to step the student through the phases of learning and progress into some form of semi sparring and then free sparring.
As Datu Kelly and SM Dan, both mentioned, no art has a complete rule on the best, and it comes down to the practitioner, who executes it.
So, the idea of Results Based and Modern Arnis is that as it was and is taught in seminars and camps and classes, the control over the student being able to see the results was not there. In traditional Balintawak where one person worked with another and the rest watched, the control could be more easily executed. Does it mean that it was 100%, of course not? Now, to qualify the above, obviously if you have trained with GM Remy Presas for any time one on one and also trained with those who have titles or known names, you would get the control to see to the Results Based. Hence, Why I can see where some would take PaulÂ’s post differently then I, as most of those here, are either of the Title and Name Known, of have trained with those for a while.
Modern Arnis versus Balintawak
I do not think any one art is superior to the other on its merits alone. I do think that certain arts do come easier to some people, because of the way they are taught, or philosophy behind the system.
I have a second hand story without names for this discussion. A Modern Arnis practitioner was looking to study Balintawak and could not train with the instructor and instead trained with a student (* term used loosely, as this person had many years of good training in Balintawak. It is not meant derogatory in any manner. *) of the Balintawak instructor. After a few classes the Modern Arnis practitioner asked, why not try “this” or try “that”, and the answer is, because this is the counter for “that”, or you have less options for “this”. The Modern Arnis person asked why then do you not do these options you mentioned? Because your "timing" in Modern Arnis is better than my timing in Balintawak on that move.
Once again it is not the art but the practitioner. ** The Modern Arnis practitioner did end up training with the Balintawak instructor. **
Modern Arnis Tapi-Tapi versus Balintawak
“Tapi-Tapi was created to counter Balintawak” I have no doubt that was something that the late GM Presas said. One would ask, why he would say in a proud voice that Balintawak is one of the deadliest arts he has known and then create a counter for it.
Forgive me for this may not translate well from my brain to the computer. I will do my best.
Balintawak has a set series of techniques, and the back up (* this is the one that is easiest to learn, or execute with no or late timing is learned first. *) and as the skill level goes up the person learns better timings and what is called some short cuts. This is taught one on one and the instructor can help the student learn the basics and then the timing, and then later how to put it into the mixing bowl of sparring.
In this, one of the major concepts is the left hand (off hand or non stick hand), and how it monitors, manages, and delays the opponents stick. The left hand does not grab the opponents stick, as this limits you options in techniques and also delays your own reaction to move to the next technique yourself. After sufficient timing has been established, then counters to grabs are learned.
In Tapi-Tapi, and I will reference it from the Semi Sparring point of view from the 80’s and what I know of the lock flow drills with the stick, (* Which has been pointed out can be translated to empty hands as well *). In Tapi-Tapi you either bait your opponent to grab your hand or you grab their stick and manipulate them into a lock, of a strike if they refuse to block. (* These are the traditional entries *) The following is not a slam. It is easier to teach someone how to grab a stick and then to move from there, as the opponents stick is under your control. This does drive results when executed at speed or at the proper timing, as you now are able to control and or strike your opponent. Yes with the grab you have lost some options and there are counters that can tie you up. But, as I pointed out above, “After sufficient timing has been established, then counters to grabs are learned”. Many Senior and those whose names are known today of the Balintawak players, could execute these moves, yet, the average student would use the grab as it is effective. Even some of those who have their own systems today including GM R. Presas used the grab because they were able to make it work. So is the grabbing bad? Not really if you realize that any technique can be countered and are prepared to react. Once again it gets down to timing and execution and who is the better of the two who are swinging sticks or empty hands or …, at each other.
My apologies for the stick inclusion into this empty hand discussion, I was just replying to those already in this thread.
I must apologize, for I have spent a couple of hours on this post and have to get back to finish up some of my work before tomorrow.
Best regards