Modern Arnis/Balintawak/Relationships and other discussions

[Rich Parsons]

A single link I found using: Surigao escrima

Has Balintawak reference with one of the assistant instructors is from Surigao Del Sur, Mindinao

 

[DoxN4cer]

OK, last post before I take off for a while.

While on my first trip to the PI, I came across some old fellas (who claimed to be students at the Labanong Fencing Club circa 1933) on a ferry from Iloilo to Cebu that related a few of stories to me regarding the Saavedras, Doce Pares and Anciong Bacon. I have no idea if any of it was true, but the bit about Bacon learning from the natives in Surigao was interesting, and quite believable. According to them Bacon brought a great deal of this system with him into the Labanong Fencing Club as well as his development of Balintawak. Can anybody lend any credibilty to the story, or was it just two old guys spinning yarns?


Tim Kashino

 

[Cruentus]

Dude, there is one thing that is cool about your job. You get to hang out at docks in places like the PI, and shoot the S**t with old guys about Eskrima! Way cool!

I think this can be easily verified by the info that Manong Ted comes up with. I'll see him tomorrow, and I'll ask myself. If it is true, Bacon would have relayed this to some of his peers and students, so it should be somewhat verifiable. I think Rich already posed the question to him on Tuesday, so by the time you come back one of us will have an answer to clear it all up.

So, the solution is simple; we should have verification soon!

Have a good few weeks.

:tank:

 

[DoxN4cer]

The trip was before I was in the Navy, I was there specifically to dig for infomation and training. But yes, I have had many opportunities to meet and train with some really great people (on and off the clock), some of which went right back to their humble way of life after their experiences in WWII. Back then the FMA still carried a stigma in many areas, and they chose not to display their methods to the public. These men are a rare breed and are quickly disappearing. My experiences with them are something that I will treasure for the rest of my life.

Tim Kashino

 

[Toasty]

Hello again Mr. Kashino,
Thanks for the reply.
This has been a problem for me doing research as well, it becomes alot of "he said" or "I heard" stories that are next-to impossible to verify. The only way I have figured out how to "verify" the truthfulness and accuracy is if i can get the same (or similar versions) story from a few different (and diverse if possible) sources.
So anyway, thanks for that one aspect anyway, it sends me on yet another detective mission

be well
Rob

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by DoxN4cer
Hi Guys,
Well compared to you guys, my exposure to Balintawak is sporadic and minimal, but enough to draw some basic comparisons. Perhaps "a lot more" concerning the roots of Balintawak was a not a prudent choice of syntax. I'm often limited on time that I can spend frivolously in front of a computer.

Tim, Tim, Tim, I am really disappointed. Frivolously in front of a computer. Today I am home sick from work, so as to not spread what Ihave around the office. I have a work cell phone and can login and get e-mail. Yet, now all can be done, from home, so I am here reading and learning. I would much prefer to learn at the end of a stick. The next time we meet maybe you might be up for it? Maybe then your time would be not so Frivolous .

I am not the most knowledgable about Balintawak or any art from the PI let alone any art all. I try to have an open mind and learn. Yet you my friend have this attitude that no one can have an open mind or learn except you. You present it like I (Tim K) have a secret, and you(everyone else) know(s) nothing of it.

You my friend have been all over the internet since Late June and Early July, on multiple sites asking the same questions, or similar questions. Nice to see you are interested. Yet is this Frivolous time as well? Yes, some people enjoy their time online. Some people enjoy their training on the matts or in the basement or on teh streets or docks. Just because my choice(s) earlier in life have put me in a position to have a carear that allows me time to train with a GM weekly (* And to afford the cash and time *) and to spend time online as well. Be Jealous, if you must. Please desist with your petty attempts at humor or insults. For you see, you get my responses above .

Originally posted by DoxN4cer
Back to Surigao... I don't know the reliability of this information, but prior to WWII, GM Bacon used to trade with a group of natives in Surigao (perhaps the fire walkers) that had a stickfighting method and their warriors were reportedly very fast and very skilled. It is speculated he had learned their system (agak style?) prior to the creation of the Balnitawak club. Does anybody have any further information on the subject?

I'll be back in a couple of weeks.

Tim Kashino

Like I said earlier, I would like to know this information as well. Now depending upon who you talk to Even Anciong Bacon was not an original member of the Labanong Fencing Club. Just check the offical sites of the Doces Pares. So, all information I would hold in suspect and weigh it as more data came in.

Yet, a nice topic to discuss, I just wish it was so Frivolous a discussion about the roots of Balintwak which you (Tim K), Paul M, and Rich C all seem very willing to discuss and spout information.

So, when you get back and have a chance to read this. Let me know if you have had luck with your additional sources. You should contact Bobby Toboada himself and see what stories her has? As you guys seem to have the knowledge and information about Balintwak Eskrima Cuentada as taught by Bobby Toboada.

Maybe just maybe you can spend some frivolous time and reply back.

:asian:

 

[Dan Anderson]

Originally posted by Rocky
Here is a question to ponder, why do we even bother lerning martial arts when most of us suck at it!!! Think about it for a minute. Every Master I ever trained with says the same thing, "boy you should have seen my master, I couldn't even touch him I am not even in the same league as him, and some say his Master was even better.

Now think about it!! someday you will probably be telling your students just how much better your Master was then you are. So that means that the last 4 or 5 generations have progressively gotten worst.

Rocky ( Master of all who are willing to follow) Pasiwk

Wellllllllllll, not necessarily. We remember our masters as being better than we were but in all honesty, that's when they were better than we were. Unfortunately, as we get better down the years there is someone who could objectively say, "Hey, you passed up your instructor. Good for you." because by that time he's dead and can't stll you $h!t. Plus, it's not considered good manners to even think out loud that you might be approaching your teacher's skill but it happens all the time. I see the difference between karate int he 1960's when I started and now and the abilities of most practitioners now leave the others in the dust. That's progress, folks and that happens in FMA, I'll bet, as well.

Yours,
Dan "Soon to be stoned for blasphemy" Anderson

 

[Dan Anderson]

Originally posted by Rich Parsons
Today I am home sick from work, so as to not spread what Ihave around the office. :asian:

Rich,
Sorry to hear that. Lots of rest and liquids!

Yours,
Dan

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by Dan Anderson
Rich,
Sorry to hear that. Lots of rest and liquids!

Yours,
Dan

Oj, and then CranApple, and then Water and then Mile with the Cereal, and oh yeah the Vitamins and cold pills.

So, I try, I try, and thanks for the kinds words and well wishes

:asian:

 

[loki09789]

Rich,

Please don't try and profile or dissect my motives and meaning behind my postings. I am not inferring any lack in you or any particular individual or groups. We can discuss topic all day long without this conjecture. That's how all the bs starts.

My intent is to state an opinion about a trend I have noticed since I have been actively reading here. I know that Tim H. has done well in SCA fencing and participated in other parallel martial training, as have other members here. I am not claiming to have the keys to the kingdom. I fear that since we are so close to the parallel topics of contact sports, boxing... culturally that we don't really spend alot of time thinking about their value. I was hoping to get some feedback about how FMA concepts have specifically allowed other techniques/arts to fit into their system. As you and others have said before, this is concept and evolution.

I hope that other readers will share their knowledge of western influences on FMA or martial practice in general. I see the progression of mastery starting with techniques, moving to tactics and topping off at strategic mastery. This may look different for each of us, and that's good.

As far as the western/eastern influence on military/combative stuff: The Muslim (Ottoman?) empire spread all the way into France so I agree that eastern influences are possible in the areas of technology, science and medicine primarily.

Armor, though, got lighter and moved away from metal because of the introduction of firearms moreso than europeans adopting an eastern doctrine of warfare. No point in wearing tons of metal if a bullet or cannon shot can go right through anyway. Swords, and pikes evolve into bayonets and so on.

I hope we can discuss these topics well. I forgot about the Muslim thing until you posed the idea of eastern influence.

Paul Martin

 

[Cruentus]

Originally posted by Dan Anderson
Wellllllllllll, not necessarily. We remember our masters as being better than we were but in all honesty, that's when they were better than we were. Unfortunately, as we get better down the years there is someone who could objectively say, "Hey, you passed up your instructor. Good for you." because by that time he's dead and can't stll you $h!t. Plus, it's not considered good manners to even think out loud that you might be approaching your teacher's skill but it happens all the time. I see the difference between karate int he 1960's when I started and now and the abilities of most practitioners now leave the others in the dust. That's progress, folks and that happens in FMA, I'll bet, as well.

Yours,
Dan "Soon to be stoned for blasphemy" Anderson

How dare you! :soapbox:

LOL just kidding. Actually if I am "smellin what the Rock was cookin'" appropriately here, I think he ment it as more of a rhetorical question to get us to think about a very good point. Why do we deitise our instructors, and put them on a God-like pedistal, honestly believing that we will never achieve the skill that they have had? They were humans just like us, so to think we can't achieve their skill or better is selling ourselves short in my opinion.

I know this, I know you know this, and I know Rocky knows this (which is why I felt comfortable enough to interpret, or misinterpret if that was the case, his post), but what about everyone else?

I think the key to achieving greatness, however, lies not in thinking that we are great, or even 'almost great'. I think it lies in this wonderful little Michalangelo quote (from when he was about 70 yrs of age) pertaining to a question regarding his art, "I'm still learning."

:asian:

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Originally posted by loki09789
Rich,

Please don't try and profile or dissect my motives and meaning behind my postings. I am not inferring any lack in you or any particular individual or groups. We can discuss topic all day long without this conjecture. That's how all the bs starts.

My intent is to state an opinion about a trend I have noticed since I have been actively reading here. I know that Tim H. has done well in SCA fencing and participated in other parallel martial training, as have other members here. I am not claiming to have the keys to the kingdom. I fear that since we are so close to the parallel topics of contact sports, boxing... culturally that we don't really spend alot of time thinking about their value. I was hoping to get some feedback about how FMA concepts have specifically allowed other techniques/arts to fit into their system. As you and others have said before, this is concept and evolution.

I hope that other readers will share their knowledge of western influences on FMA or martial practice in general. I see the progression of mastery starting with techniques, moving to tactics and topping off at strategic mastery. This may look different for each of us, and that's good.

As far as the western/eastern influence on military/combative stuff: The Muslim (Ottoman?) empire spread all the way into France so I agree that eastern influences are possible in the areas of technology, science and medicine primarily.

Armor, though, got lighter and moved away from metal because of the introduction of firearms moreso than europeans adopting an eastern doctrine of warfare. No point in wearing tons of metal if a bullet or cannon shot can go right through anyway. Swords, and pikes evolve into bayonets and so on.

I hope we can discuss these topics well. I forgot about the Muslim thing until you posed the idea of eastern influence.

Paul Martin

Maybe this thread needs to be split again.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by loki09789
Rich,

Please don't try and profile or dissect my motives and meaning behind my postings. I am not inferring any lack in you or any particular individual or groups. We can discuss topic all day long without this conjecture. That's how all the bs starts.

Paul M,

Then let your friends and yourself keep the BS and conjecture out of ti as well. Choose your words a little bit better, and maybe it will not go down this track. Just a thought. (* See Below also *)

Originally posted by loki09789
My intent is to state an opinion about a trend I have noticed since I have been actively reading here. I know that Tim H. has done well in SCA fencing and participated in other parallel martial training, as have other members here. I am not claiming to have the keys to the kingdom. I fear that since we are so close to the parallel topics of contact sports, boxing... culturally that we don't really spend alot of time thinking about their value. I was hoping to get some feedback about how FMA concepts have specifically allowed other techniques/arts to fit into their system. As you and others have said before, this is concept and evolution.

Paul M,

Thses are much better words. I see no conjecture on your part with this selection. :asian:

Originally posted by loki09789
I hope that other readers will share their knowledge of western influences on FMA or martial practice in general. I see the progression of mastery starting with techniques, moving to tactics and topping off at strategic mastery. This may look different for each of us, and that's good.

Another good selection of words, and phrased well.

Asking for people to give their opinions is what this is all about.

Originally posted by loki09789
As far as the western/eastern influence on military/combative stuff: The Muslim (Ottoman?) empire spread all the way into France so I agree that eastern influences are possible in the areas of technology, science and medicine primarily.

Yes and the Muslim Empire or Religion of Islam spread across cultures towards the east, hence the spread all the way to the PI.

Originally posted by loki09789
Armor, though, got lighter and moved away from metal because of the introduction of firearms moreso than europeans adopting an eastern doctrine of warfare. No point in wearing tons of metal if a bullet or cannon shot can go right through anyway. Swords, and pikes evolve into bayonets and so on.

Yes, the firearm, developed in the east with gun powder, does add into the equation or randomness of assault on the battlefield. The Heavy metal armor became the sign of the rich/wealthy knights and land owners. When four or five guys with ropes from the trees could knock you off and stab you to death with a poinard through the soft parts of the armor around the neck or under the arm or . . ., . The tactics of the common people changed to address the armor. Remember it cost lots of money and resources to have Heavy / Plate armor built and fit to you. It is much easier to have a chain shirt and mobility with less cost. It is even easier to outfit a group of men with leather armor, even less cost. Yes Swords and pikes became bayonets and swords for the officiers (Mounted)

Originally posted by loki09789
I hope we can discuss these topics well. I forgot about the Muslim thing until you posed the idea of eastern influence.

Paul Martin

And I am sure I forgot many an item or did not know it, and either you or someone else will educate me or jog my memory.

I am sure we can continue to discuss and argue (* Present opposing sides *) in a cival manner.

Regards
:asian:

 

[Cruentus]

Originally posted by Renegade
Maybe this thread needs to be split again.

Yes...or Paul Martin can start a new thread on the subject.

 

[loki09789]

Rich,

Quite honestly, I don't care if you approve of my word choice or not because I have gone back and reviewed what I said. I never flamed anyone. I was not rude and did not swear. I stated my opinion, looking for imput not argument. I simply stated strongly something I feel strongly about. I may be guilty of being preachy or long winded at times, but I know I am not alone in this... Heck, I have seen more pointed attitude in Rocky posts and yours as well.

If you think I have somehow violated the forum rules act accordingly, otherwise let's just stay on the discussion track.


I'm done with the western influence comments for now. If there is anything else I will start a new thread.

Please direct any replies to private mail. I don't see this as positive interaction, as per your forum rules.

Paul Martin

 

[Rocky]

The Legendary Master Anderson Wrote:

Wellllllllllll, not necessarily. We remember our masters as being better than we were but in all honesty, that's when they were better than we were. Unfortunately, as we get better down the years there is someone who could objectively say, "Hey, you passed up your instructor. Good for you." because by that time he's dead and can't stll you $h!t. Plus, it's not considered good manners to even think out loud that you might be approaching your teacher's skill but it happens all the time. I see the difference between karate int he 1960's when I started and now and the abilities of most practitioners now leave the others in the dust. That's progress, folks and that happens in FMA, I'll bet, as well.

True true, I just think its funny how Martial arts seems to be the one thing that everyone always says "Oh man you should have seen my instructor or his instructor or what no. I realize its a for of respect, I just like to get people thinking!

Oh and by the way I got some realy nice stones I found the other day, so let the stoning begin!!!!:rofl:

Rich Rich Rich, how are you going to build yourself inot a legend, if you openly admit that a little thing like the Flu has a great Warrior from the Flint Dojo down. Look just between you and me you are suppose to tell people you hurt you back, or knee or something while slamming the Legendary Master Jim Power to the matt, and after hours of feirce training that brought both of you to the brink of death, you finally had to tap out!!!! But not before letting him know he was in a real battle!! See this is the kind of stuff that builds you into a Ledgend!!
:rofl:


Seriously though get rest and don't forget the chicken soup!!

Paul Wrote:

know this, I know you know this, and I know Rocky knows this (which is why I felt comfortable enough to interpret, or misinterpret if that was the case, his post), but what about everyone else?

Checkout the big brain on Paul!!!!!!!:rofl:

Paul M. Wrote:

Quite honestly, I don't care if you approve of my word choice or not because I have gone back and reviewed what I said. I never flamed anyone. I was not rude and did not swear. I stated my opinion, looking for imput not argument. I simply stated strongly something I feel strongly about. I may be guilty of being preachy or long winded at times, but I know I am not alone in this... Heck, I have seen more pointed attitude in Rocky posts and yours as well.

Hey why drag me into this, I actually understood what you meant, thats why I posted that I think western and eastern pulled from each other.

Anyways I think its safe to say that martial artist constantly steal from each other, otherwise that become stagnant or "Stylist" and not artist!

Rocky

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by loki09789
Rich,

Quite honestly, I don't care if you approve of my word choice or not because I have gone back and reviewed what I said. I never flamed anyone. I was not rude and did not swear. I stated my opinion, looking for imput not argument. I simply stated strongly something I feel strongly about. I may be guilty of being preachy or long winded at times, but I know I am not alone in this... Heck, I have seen more pointed attitude in Rocky posts and yours as well.

If you think I have somehow violated the forum rules act accordingly, otherwise let's just stay on the discussion track.


I'm done with the western influence comments for now. If there is anything else I will start a new thread.

Please direct any replies to private mail. I don't see this as positive interaction, as per your forum rules.

Paul Martin

Paul M.

Well, I am sorry you took my opinion wrong. It is something I fell strongly about also.

As to taking it to private e-mail, no problem. We can. Yet, I will not leave a post hanging, so I will reply.

I was trying to adderss the issue that I and others were not allowing you to express your opinions, with your comments that it would not be popular. You assumed 'We' all disagreed with you from the start. After a few exchanges, we have come to a more common ground. This is positive progress. I gave the feedback so you would understand that I responded much better to positive words then to negative words. I was trying to explain how I saw it, in counter to your opinion or in may cases with your opinion with the exception that I did not see where it was not popular. I never said you flamed anyone. I have never said you broke a rule. I was only trying to give feedback as I saw it, that your comments and word choice could lead to negative comments versus postive comments. You choice of words that imply that others cannot think in tactics, and the being unpopular were the ones I was discussing. Yet, after thought you replied very eloquently and concisely and positively. I appriciated that. Thank You.

I am sorry to have hurt your feelings.

Best Regards
:asian:

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by Rocky
. . .
Rich Rich Rich, how are you going to build yourself into a legend, if you openly admit that a little thing like the Flu has a great Warrior from the Flint Dojo down. Look just between you and me you are suppose to tell people you hurt you back, or knee or something while slamming the Legendary Master Jim Power to the matt, and after hours of feirce training that brought both of you to the brink of death, you finally had to tap out!!!! But not before letting him know he was in a real battle!! See this is the kind of stuff that builds you into a Legend!!
:rofl:

Seriously though get rest and don't forget the chicken soup!!

Rocky

Rocky, :rofl:

Legend, oh boy, that is one of the last things I want. I go and get humbled once a week by 70+ year old man. I train with Master Power and still get humbled twice a week. Nice story though. Maybe we should change the Tap out to I got knocked out

As to the flu, I find it the little things I cannot see or touch the hardest to combat

Lots of fluids and chicken soup


Thank You
:asian:

 

[loki09789]

Rich,

I took this to email, comments here are not productive.

Paul Martin

 

[Rocky]

I lost your e-mail add again send it to me aor call me 313-389-5464 [email protected]


Rocky