Modern Arnis/Balintawak/Relationships and other discussions

[Emptyglass]

Originally posted by Rich Parsons
Rich C. very nicely put.

<snip>

When some admits openingly that they have added to an art (* No disrespect *) then it cannot be the same unless what was added is zero or a null set. As Boxing and Sinawalis, and Abiniko and , ...., . whatever else has been added is not a null set or have zero worth, they have changed it from the starting point. Therefore there are differences.

As to being entitled to the right of free speech, is not quite correct. This is a private board, owned by a company. That company has allowed the general populace to sign up and post freely their opinions as long as they follow the rules. The difference is subtle, yet very important. The U.S. Constitution and Bill of Rights do not protect anyone here. Yet, I and the other Moderators, have tried to allow people to express their opinions.

:asian:

Rich P:

I don't think anyone ever tried to make a statement that Manong Buot's or GM Taboada's systems or training methods were the same. I don't know how that even came up. However, they do both descend from the same instructor (GGM Bacon) as does GM Remy Presas' Modern Arnis to some extent, so there most probably are similarities within the 3 arts due to a shared instructor in all 3 Grandmaster's pasts. Which was the original point I was making way back before this thing started rambling, so thanks for helping me get back to my original thesis.

As for speaking freely, I'm not so insular to assume that we were only talking about the USA here as we probably have alot of forum members from other countries. I was more talking about the right of human beings in general being able to express themselves freely in an open forum.

If this board is owned by a company as you say, are you telling me that we can be censored if an owner in that company doesn't like what is being said even if that statement doesn't break any of the forum rules? Or if something that is said runs opposite to his/her interests. If that is the case, who does own the company/control and guide the interests of its business practices?

Thanks,

Rich Curren

 

[Emptyglass]

Originally posted by Emptyglass

As for speaking freely, I'm not so insular to assume that we were only talking about the USA here as we probably have alot of forum members from other countries. I was more talking about the right of human beings in general being able to express themselves freely in an open forum.

Hmmm. Reading this over again, it sounds a little dumb and idealistic. Perhaps I have too much faith in the internet as a free and open international forum. <shrug> Oh well.

Thanks,

Rich Curren

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Emptyglass
If this board is owned by a company as you say, are you telling me that we can be censored if an owner in that company doesn't like what is being said even if that statement doesn't break any of the forum rules? Or if something that is said runs opposite to his/her interests.

In principle, yes--MartialTalk could ban the use of the word blue on a whim. Of course, that would be ridiculous.

We don't do anything so cavalier, nor do we ban competing interests. We have always welcomed other board's admins announcing their new boards here, for example, even though they clearly compete with us for members' time. All organizations are welcome to post announcements about their seminars. The company that owns MartialTalk (SilverStar) is a web-hosting company and part of the hope is that MartialTalk will atttract new web-hosting clients for the company. But, we have always allowed others who design and host sites to advertise their services here. We strive to take the high road. We encourage discussion of our moderation policies (in the Support forum) and constructive criticism is always welcome.

The bottom line is that you can say what you like here, within our rules, which are principally that you say it in a polite and respectful manner. You may say negative things to or about anyone associated with the site, as long as you do it the way you would with a colleague at work--politely and professionally, treating others the way you would wish to be treated. For other discussions, there's the PM system and e-mail.

No one need be concerned that they must be extra-careful about expressing their opinion because a moderator is a participant in a thread. As a matter of policy, if a moderator is a participant in a thread then he or she calls in someone else to handle any moderation issues (beyond splitting threads or handling requests to delete posts or such) so that someone disinterested makes the call. In any event, decisions to warn individuals must be discussed by the mod. team as a group before action is taking (barring an emergency, like the occasional spam run through every forum). If anyone has a problem with a moderator, please contact an admin! Contact me (arnisador), Cthulhu, or Kaith Rustaz about the matter. Your privacy will be respected, and we will investigate the matter and take corrective action if need be.

Moderators are allowed to express their opinions just like any other member. Unless it's signed as below, it's a personal opinion, not an official statement.

Please, speak your mind! We want opinions and discussions. We expect disagreements. As long as those disagreements are civil--and no warnings have been issued in this thread--that's fine.

If that is the case, who does own the company/control and guide the interests of its business practices?

Robert Hubbard (Kaith Rustaz) is the sole owner of SilverStar WebDesigns Inc.

The rest of the admins and mods. are volunteers who assist him. They are unpaid and have no financial intrest in the company in general nor in MartialTalk in particular, which continues to operate in the red.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Emptyglass
Perhaps I have too much faith in the internet as a free and open international forum.

Mr. Hubbard and I feel similarly about the Internet.

It's one reason MartialTalk hasn't closed the board (members only can view) and why MartialTalk resisted requesting real names for so long (though eventually circumstances semed to compel the change). We want everyone to feel free to speak freely here--but we also dont want the chaos that is rec.martial-arts. We do the best balancing act we can!

Further discussion of moderation policies is best handled in the Support forum.


-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

 

[Emptyglass]

Thanks for the response fellas, this clarifies a few things for me.

Rich Curren

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by Emptyglass
Rich P:

I don't think anyone ever tried to make a statement that Manong Buot's or GM Taboada's systems or training methods were the same. I don't know how that even came up. However, they do both descend from the same instructor (GGM Bacon) as does GM Remy Presas' Modern Arnis to some extent, so there most probably are similarities within the 3 arts due to a shared instructor in all 3 Grandmaster's pasts. Which was the original point I was making way back before this thing started rambling, so thanks for helping me get back to my original thesis.
. . .
Thanks,

Rich Curren

Rich C et al,

Yes if you were to draw a Venn Diagram between the different lineages from GM Anciong Bacon you would see over laps from one to the other. Yet the only spot I can think of where all would over lap woudl be the numbering systems, who wait Modern Arnis has a different numbering system, so I would not expect the one area common to all the circles. I would expect as you stated that their are similarites, and I would expect that their are differences as well. All the GM's and systems excpet GM Buot and Balintawak state that they have added something. Modified with some extra. Grouped and Grouped with additions. As I stated before I do not think of these as null sets therfore they have value or content. Therefore the difference.

Yet, as you stated, their will be similiarities. And Rich C, just because you are the last one talking to me does not mean I said you said that there are no differences.
:asian:

Have a nice day!

 

[Emptyglass]

Rich P:

Uggh. Venn Diagrams. This is the stuff I see in human resource and business meetings at work (where I am now). Blarhghh!

Fair enough, we agree there are similarities and differences. Which is kind of a no brainer, considering what we are talking about in the first place, that is, different styles of instruction of the Filipino Martial Arts.

Thanks,

Rich Curren

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by Emptyglass
Rich P:
Uggh. Venn Diagrams. This is the stuff I see in human resource and business meetings at work (where I am now). Blarhghh!
. . .
Thanks,
Rich Curren

Rich C,

I am sorry for the bad taste in your mouth. I see you escape from work to here to get away form it all. Maybe we should call for the judge to see if that shot was below the belt

Good day at work

Regards

 

[Guro Harold]

:erg: :flame: :deadhorse

Could someone let someone else have the last word and close this thread, sheesh!!!

 

[Emptyglass]

Hi Palusut:

Respectfully, if it doesn't interest you, don't bother reading. However the point is taken, we should either get back to Balintawak/Modern Arnis connections or stop bantering.

Rich P.:

As for escaping from work Rich, nah, I've got a big project due and am putting in some extra time off the clock. Therefore, I can afford to spend some time jabbering away like a fish wife here as I'm on my time now.

Thanks,

Rich Curren

 

[Rocky]

Tim H. Wrote.

This makes GM Bobby a 3rd generation student of Bacon. Ted Buot was a 1st generation student and was there for much of the history. In addition he is also related to Bacon and made it easier to find out about family history. As in the game “pass it on”, each time a story is told by a new person the facts start to lose their integrity.

How right you are, you can see how things "stories" change within a single generation. I have been having this argument for the past 10 years on the internet. Gm Tabaoda initially called his art Original Balintawak, when he first started teaching in the U.S. After a very heated debate back and forth, I informed him that GM Buot was alive and well and in fact my Master, he actually called GM Buot, it is becuase of this dialog between Gm Tadoada and myself that I think he renamed his art Balintawak Cuentada, becuase of his respect for Gm Buot. It seems other sometimes have an agenda to stir things up. Gm Tobaoda, Gm Buot have no anomosity towards each other, nor do I towards Gm Tobaoda as some have often tried to insinuate, I have an open invitation to train with Gm Taboada anytime, in fact someday I think you may see us doing a seminar together. Gm Taboada earned his position, as did Gm Buot.



This argument was settled between Gm Buot GM Taboada and myself almost 10 yrs ago so let it go!!! of course in a few years with the new crop of students in various camps I am sure that this will start all over again.

I think a few years ago people were trying to cash in on the up and coming Balintawak craze, Remy finally let it known that Balintawak was the art that taught him most about fighting so everyone wanted to get in on it. Some with true honest and good intentions and others just to say they were doing it. I was calling various people, as I thought it my duty back in the 80's and 90s that made claims to be doing original Balintawak, most were nice people who after we talked and they found out that Gm Buot was alive and well and that I was no fly by night they would then say oh well I guess you could call us modified or grouped or this version or that version, which was perfectly aceptable, in fact one of the guys Michael Zimmer from Van Cuver B.C a very nice guy I recommend training with, came to Detroit and we palyed and I introduced him to Gm Buot with whom he was just mesmerized by. Ends up after talking to him, that his Gm Dom Lopez, was one of the students that Gm Buot taught at the club on Balintawak street. Gm Lopez was also at a famous duel that GGM Bacon had, in fact he bandaged GGM Bacons arm up.

It is very important to me that Original Balintawak keeps its liniage and history straight, and not fall into the mess so many other arts have.

But in the end all of the various Balintawak versions are testiments to the exceptional abilityies of the the man at the center of it all, GGM Anciong Ba'con.

Someday I think the same will be said about GM Presas, eventually their will be many variations of his art, but at the center, there will always be GM Remy Amador Presas.


Rocky

 

[Guro Harold]

Originally posted by Emptyglass
Hi Palusut:

Respectfully, if it doesn't interest you, don't bother reading. However the point is taken, we should either get back to Balintawak/Modern Arnis connections or stop bantering.

Hi Rich,

Please do not include me in this snapping/snipping turtle" war that is going on.

The Balintawak/Modern Arnis Topic was of interest to me, the bickering does not interest me one bit.

I did not reply to take sides but to add the reminder again that MartialTalk is for "friendly discussion."

Best regards,

Harold

 

[Emptyglass]

Hi Harold:

I didn't feel there was a war going on, just some lukewarm conversation. I still think the conversation is friendly, however there are disagreements on some points which may be misconstrued as animosity due to the impersonal medium of internet conversation. On my part, I just chalk it up to a healthy debate and still feel friendly.

Thanks,

Rich Curren

 

[Cruentus]

Congrat's, morons. You have just successfully dragged GM Bobby Taboada's name through the mud with your games. I hope your happy. I doubt GM Taboada will be. I'll address you all one at a time, clearly, so you all will understand.

Richard Curren: You said, "We're small but we train quite a bit for people with day jobs (4-5 days a week, 2-5 hours a night)."

O.K....I have to question how your training is related to Balintawak. I clicked on your link and I searhced around. First off, Bobby Ladra doesn't teach balintawak. He teaches Kalirada Arnis De Mano. This is a hybrid art based off Taboada's Balintawak Sayoc Kali, and Tulisan Arnis. This is great, and I am glad your training in it, but this is hardly pure Balintawak. Your a generation removed from Taboada, who is a generation removed from Anciong. Plus, the class schedule listed is Wednesdays and Fridays, one hour each day.

This hardly makes it credable for you to state that you train 2-5 hours a night 4-5 days a week period, especially not in Balintawak.

Now, I am sure you get good training in from Mr. Ladra, and I am not trying to discredit that. I am questioning your Balintawak knowledge, however. So...instead of posting with the undertone that "I know something you don't know," how about listening and learning from others with more experience, and who are not as far removed from the source (Anciong Bacon) then you.

Tim Kashino: I don't care about one or 2 seminars that you've done in the past. You don't train Balintawak from Taboada or anyone else any more then I train in Pekiti or Thai Boxing because I have had a couple of seminars. Plus, your gone all the time in places (like italy) where you get virtually no eskrima training. Your far removed. Now...when called out you admitted this, but when you first posted you posted with this err of "I know something you don't know." In fact...you do that a lot. Stop it. It's childish and annoying. And so is your other "implications" such as "frivolous time on the internet" and other issues.

Your inexperienced regarding Balintawak, and in this case your way over your head. So..how about you open YOUR mind and listen to others who are more experienced.

Dr. Barber: Welcome back. Your an idiot. Read my link.

Also...I've done my research. Watching video's of GM Bobby Taboada and attending 3 camps in 3 years is hardly enough of anything to claim knowledge on history of GM Taboada, on Balintawak, or to know significant portions of the art. Your claims (and your sad attempts to discredit Ted Buot's students) have only caused Mr. Taboada's credablility to get dragged through the mud unnessicarily. You don't know your facts for one. For 2, none of us (GM Buots students) take issue with GM Taboada. None of us wanted to drag his name through the mud...that was your doing.

Paul Martin: Aren't you the representative for the Buffalo area for Taboada's Balintawak Cuentada? You should be ashamed of yourself. I am not going to try to discredit or question your training in Taboada's art, but I am going to say that GM Taboada is in North Carolina. Let's just say that you don't get to see him everyday. Let's just also say that because of this, you don't have all the facts regarding Anciong Bacon, Balintawak, or even GM Taboada himself. But, because of all the game playing...look what happend in Rocky's post? Now his name has been run through the mud and it is partially YOUR fault. I doubt Mr. Taboada is going to be happy with this.

So, to you 4, nice going @$$holes. You have all been up to your little games again, or so it seems, and it resulted in you dragging a good mans name (Bobby Taboada) through the mud. And don't blame it on Buot's students this time. We all knew Taboada's history regarding Anciong, and none of us wanted to smeer anything on the net. But, when you guys forced the issue, this history was brought up. It is your fault. So...are you done playing stupid games yet?

Also, for more information, make sure you read my new thread:

(* Link removed - Rich Parsons 10/27/03 *)

Clean up your act, fella's.

Sincerely,

Paul Janulis

 

[arnisador]

Please, keep the discussion polite and respectful. Name-calling in particular is inappropriate on MartialTalk.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

 

[Tgace]

Man oh man

Color me puzzled but could someone explain how the posts in this thread came to this? I keep looking at it and cant see why.

 

[Rich Parsons]

If anyone feels the need to reply, please contact me the with contents and the Moderator Team will review it for Approval or Denial.

If anyone wishes to continue the Similarites and or differences of Balintawak Families and or Modern Arnis Please start a new thread for positive discussion.

Rich Parsons
MT Moderator

 

[arnisador]

We have removed a thread by PAUL and another thread that commented on it.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-