Re No Peace in the Holy Land

[sgtmac_46]

I didn't deny HAMAS' violation of the order. In fact, I stated Iran is helping them and that HAMAS needs to be dismantled and sanctions need to be put on Iran. I agree, Iran is encouraging this garbage. However, children who have nothing to do with this do not deserve to starve to death. It disgusts me when I hear people say "go ahead, kill them let them starve." Have you been to war? Have you seen people starve to death? The problem is many Americans have never seen the effects war has on a society. I hope war never touches this soil. 9/11 was bad enough, but, 9/11 was a one day event, an attack. I'm talking a war that lasts for years. If that ever kit American soil, so many Americans would change their views on war in a snap. It's easy to declare a war, but, it's not easy to fight one.

Funny....my Scots-Irish ancestors dealt with that kind of conflict for decades as they settled America....and it did nothing but harden their resolve and make them more lethal! Who do you think fought the native Americans tooth and nail for every inch of this land? I think you're mistaken about the American Spirit......WE have lived so long without this kind of conflict PRECISELY because, historically, America was founded by hard and violent people who didn't tolerate enemies on their borders!

And if Mexico were launching rockets in to Texas, MEXICO would cease to exist as a separate entity, we'd annex it, turn the current Mexican side of the border in to a demilitarized zone, and begin HANGING terrorists!

What Israel's situation PROVES in reality is that HALF-MEASURES don't work......TOTAL war works. The enemy submits, or the enemy gets ANNIHILATED! Israel is not responsible for PALESTINIAN women and children, Palestinian men are....THEY know what needs to be done to protect their women and children, and if they had an INTEREST in it, they wouldn't HIDE AMONGST THEIR WOMEN AND CHILDREN!


However, we live in a modern world where WESTERN CIVILIZATION has become a whipped sorry version of itself, and is too timid, cowardly and morally confused to understand effective action.......action that the EASTERN WORLD still understands quite well. The UN and all the moral handwringing about 'Negotiations' and 'Peace Settlements' is nothing but an example of how the west has lost it's TESTICLES! In another 50 years or less we'll have lost everything else as well.


Simply thinking deep intellectual thoughts about war, and how awful it is, and how you would give EVERYTHING to avoid it, ironically enough, actually INVITES ATTACK! You can have no PEACE without VICTORY!

 

[Loki]

You know what else works? Being the world's largest superpower. Do you think America is under half as much international pressure as Israel for the almost 6 year long war in Iraq, which many people claim it has much fewer reasons to wage in the first place? Even with 76% of the global population (BBC poll) opposing it?

You're totally oversimplifying the situation Israel is in. Do you think it's the American spirit alone that allows America to do as it pleases? There's the whole issue of international relations that you choose to conveniently ignore. And it's there, whether you like it or not.

The world, for the most part, doesn't like Israel, don't ask me why. Never has. So except for rare situations such as some support we're getting for this round, we're usually told to stop whatever military action we're in the middle of, even if it's self-defense. A British movement has already called for boycotting us, and demonstrations against Israel are rampant, even during peacetime.

I have no criticism towards the American spirit or American way of life, in fact I admire many of its aspects, but don't go flaunting it like we'd be in the same situation even if you were under attack, and talking about total war like it's just a matter of cojones.

 

[Tez3]

You know what else works? Being the world's largest superpower. Do you think America is under half as much international pressure as Israel for the almost 6 year long war in Iraq, which many people claim it has much fewer reasons to wage in the first place? Even with 76% of the global population (BBC poll) opposing it?

You're totally oversimplifying the situation Israel is in. Do you think it's the American spirit alone that allows America to do as it pleases? There's the whole issue of international relations that you choose to conveniently ignore. And it's there, whether you like it or not.

The world, for the most part, doesn't like Israel, don't ask me why. Never has. So except for rare situations such as some support we're getting for this round, we're usually told to stop whatever military action we're in the middle of, even if it's self-defense. A British movement has already called for boycotting us, and demonstrations against Israel are rampant, even during peacetime.

I have no criticism towards the American spirit or American way of life, in fact I admire many of its aspects, but don't go flaunting it like we'd be in the same situation even if you were under attack, and talking about total war like it's just a matter of cojones.

Quoted for truth!

We are already experiencing problems here as threats against the Jewish community have been heightened due to the call by Hamas to treat all Jewish communities, schools etc as targets. If anyone thought the Jewish people were no longer the target of anti Semitism they are very sadly mistaken, there has never been a time where were weren't targeted by
someone
http://www.thecst.org.uk/docs/Incidents_Report_07.pdf

To quote from this document and highlight as Loki says the hatred of us....

An organisation which campaigns against the
academic boycott of Israel received an email
that read: “Let me tell you that Jews
command no respect and deserve no
sympathy, because they are evil by nature
and rotten to the core. The illegal Israeli has
its base in terrorism (sic). There was no legal
or moral justification for uprooting the
innocent Palestinians and confiscating their
land by the scum of the earth know as Jews
(sic). The Jews once blessed people defied
and played tricks with God turned out to be
the most greedy, cunning and ungrateful one
(sic)…I firmly believe that all Jews will burn in
hell and in comparison Auschwitz will be like a
holiday camp. It is never too late for the Jews
to reflect on their misdeeds and repent
because God is Great and Compassionate”.
The email was referred by Police to the Crown
Prosecution Service, who declined to
prosecute the alleged sender of the email.


Please remember too that America and Great Britain refused to take refugees from Hitlers Germany who had to return and be destroyed in the Holocaust. Both countries knew about the extermination of Jews, gays, handicapped people, communists, Jehovahs Witnesses etc well before the war was declared but chose to do nothing about it. No help was given either to get refugees to Palestine, it was a case of 'we don't want to know'.

Like Loki I'm not criticising America but please do see the situation for what it is.​

 

[elder999]

Who do you think fought the native Americans tooth and nail for every inch of this land?!

Thieves and bandits. Criminal squatters.Usurpers and swindlers. Con men and liars. Men who'd make peace treaties and then break them for material gain.People who would steal entire generations of another from their homes, ship them as cargo, keep them in bondage and claim the fruits of their labor as their own. People without honor. :angry:

Homicidal terrorists. :lfao:

 

[sgtmac_46]

Thieves and bandits. Criminal squatters.Usurpers and swindlers. Con men and liars. Men who'd make peace treaties and then break them for material gain.People who would steal entire generations of another from there homes, ship them as cargo, keep them in bondage and claim the fruits of their labor as their own. People without honor. :angry:

Homicidal terrorists. :lfao:

My ancestors didn't make those treaties.....you're thinking of the English decendents in Washington. My ancestors just used the same tactics that the natives used.....the rifle, the tomahawk, the scalping knife.....if they had no honor, then neither did the people they were fighting.

And as I recall there existed several thriving slave cultures indigenous to the America's prior to any Europeans ever showing up.

 

[elder999]

My ancestors didn't make those treaties.....you're thinking of the English decendents in Washington.

No, I'm not.

My ancestors just used the same tactics that the natives used.....the rifle, the tomahawk, the scalping knife.....if they had no honor, then neither did the people they were fighting.

Hmmmm....whatever, but:

Re No Peace in the Holy Land

snip!
If one of your neighbors shot at your house at random intervals you wouldn't just take that, would you?

Let's reverse this statement: if all your "neighbors" wouldn't let you leave the house, wouldn't let anyone bring in food or medicine for your children unless they said so, I mean, no matter how right they were to do it, or how right they thought they were you wouldn't just take that, would you?

 

[sgtmac_46]

No, I'm not.

Oh yes you are, your statement shows ignorance of Scots-Irish culture in America.......we lived on the frontiers with the native tribes, inter-married with native tribes, fought with native tribes.

Hmmmm....whatever, but:

There is no 'whatever'....either BOTH of us were without 'honor' or neither of was......sour grapes over losing, doesn't mean that the winner was 'without honor'.

Let's reverse this statement: if all your "neighbors" wouldn't let you leave the house, wouldn't let anyone bring in food or medicine for your children unless they said so, I mean, no matter how right they were to do it, or how right they thought they were you wouldn't just take that, would you?

Life is conflict.....someone wins, someone loses......and usually once that's started, it doesn't end until it's resolved.

You're digging for an empathetic argument....HOPING that if you hit the right 'You can see how they feel....' tone, you'll make your point......but the REALITY is that I wouldn't USE MY WOMEN AND CHILDREN AS A WEAPON AS THE PALESTINIANS ARE DOING! Surely someone who talks about 'honor' can understand what HIDING BEHIND THE WOMEN AND CHILDREN is.

 

[elder999]

Oh yes you are, your statement shows ignorance of Scots-Irish culture in America.......we lived on the frontiers with the native tribes, inter-married with native tribes, fought with native tribes.

Not ignorance-I know exactly where my freckles come from. :lol:

I'm just expressing the sentiment that they should have stayed where they came from. And lumping all the Europeans in the same boat-that's what you did with the Indians, after all.....

You're digging for an empathetic argument....HOPING that if you hit the right 'You can see how they feel....' tone, you'll make your point......but the REALITY is that I wouldn't USE MY WOMEN AND CHILDREN AS A WEAPON AS THE PALESTINIANS ARE DOING! Surely someone who talks about 'honor' can understand what HIDING BEHIND THE WOMEN AND CHILDREN is.

Not digging for any argument at all-just pointing out that there are two sides to the story.Sure, I can undedrstand that the actions of Hamas are not only without honor, they're fruitless and pointless.

Of course, so were the actions of the IRA, but a lasting peace has been negotiated there.

When I posted earlier, I said I try not to get drawn into this debate for a variety of reasons. We can simply agree to disagree if you like, though in some ways I agree with you and some I don't...only reason I butted in is because of your glurge about "fighting the Indians tooth and nail."

 

[sgtmac_46]

Not ignorance-I know exactly where my freckles come from. :lol:

I'm just expressing the sentiment that they should have stayed where they came from. And lumping all the Europeans in the same boat-that's what you did with the Indians, after all.....

Well we didn't,and here we are.....and guess what....WE WON! No apologies......there's not a spot of occupied ground on this planet that wasn't built on the bodies of previous inhabitants!

Not digging for any argument at all-just pointing out that there are two sides to the story.Sure, I can undedrstand that the actions of Hamas are not only without honor, their fruitless and pointless.

There's actually MORE than two sides.......but ultimately you have to pick a side, because playing the middle doesn't generally work.....it keeps a conflict on the low simmer for a couple decades until it flashes over and explodes.

Of course, so were the actions of the IRA, but a lasting peace has been negotiated there.

Lasting....so FAR!

When I posted earlier, I said I try not to get drawn into this debate for a variety of reasons. We can simply agree to disagree if you like, though in some ways I agree with you and some I don't...only reason I butted in is because of your glurge about "fighting the Indians tooth and nail."

My ancestors did fight the native americans tooth and nail.....but that's not a sign of disrespect to the native americans. This country was founded on blood and conflict on ALL sides.....and the ultimate irony is that, while taking this land from the native peoples, it ultimately took on a bit of the native character.......we can't see it, but Europeans certainly can.......they view us that way, as violent savages....our culture of individual violence, our fierce individualism and desire for individual liberty.....these didn't come from Europe!


Of course it doesn't hurt that many folks today have native blood in their veins. I'm 1/8 Lakota......my half sister is 1/2 Northern Paiute.........but blood doesn't make a nation, culture does.

 

[Tez3]

Not ignorance-I know exactly where my freckles come from. :lol:

I'm just expressing the sentiment that they should have stayed where they came from. And lumping all the Europeans in the same boat-that's what you did with the Indians, after all.....



Not digging for any argument at all-just pointing out that there are two sides to the story.Sure, I can undedrstand that the actions of Hamas are not only without honor, they're fruitless and pointless.

Of course, so were the actions of the IRA, but a lasting peace has been negotiated there.

When I posted earlier, I said I try not to get drawn into this debate for a variety of reasons. We can simply agree to disagree if you like, though in some ways I agree with you and some I don't...only reason I butted in is because of your glurge about "fighting the Indians tooth and nail."

I'm afraid there isn't peace still, despite signing agreements etc there is still fighting and there are still terrorist incidents, it's just that since 9/11, Iraq and Afghanistan there has been little publicity. Not all the groups signed a peace agrrement, there's groups from both sides that have kept their weapons and take actions against each other.
Of course things are far better than they have been, but always lurking in the background is the threat of violence.

 

[sgtmac_46]

I'm afraid there isn't peace still, despite signing agreements etc there is still fighting and there are still terrorist incidents, it's just that since 9/11, Iraq and Afghanistan there has been little publicity. Not all the groups signed a peace agrrement, there's groups from both sides that have kept their weapons and take actions against each other.
Of course things are far better than they have been, but always lurking in the background is the threat of violence.

Again it's that low-simmer back burner I was referring to.....these conflicts sit their for years sometimes, even decades, waiting to explode!

But.....that's human nature.....conflict is our existence......if we didn't have a desire for conflict, we'd still be hanging out in the trees, going comfortably extinct like our cousins the bonobos.

 

[Natty]

Simply thinking deep intellectual thoughts about war, and how awful it is, and how you would give EVERYTHING to avoid it, ironically enough, actually INVITES ATTACK! You can have no PEACE without VICTORY!

Well, unlike you hawk guys, I prefer to think with my mind and not with my hormones. I had family who grew up in war zones. My family came over from Belfast from a very hard life. We had family who stayed and still have family over there. We had to worry about their safety throughout the year and especially during the Orangemen Marching times during July. I have family who have been killed by the British, who were captured by them during the second world war. They have PTSD and cannot talk about the experiences they had. My grandmother who is in her eighties is just starting to talk and I think it is because she wants peace before she dies. My family came here to America to escape that daily hell and to live a decent life. They did not want their kids to be full of hate of others. If someone attacks us here, you better believe I'll fight to the end. But I don't want to encourage it. As for the comment for thinking too deeply about it, I study history and focus mainly on totalitarian governments. I have studied many wars and many horrific events that have taken place on this earth, especially in the 20th century. You think what the press shows you is bad? That's the tip of the iceberg. That is why I have the attitude I have. Not to push our country down, I never would, our people always will come first no matter what the situation is. In fact, I don't think the government does enough for Americans. But, America needs to look at the facts before taking an action. If you don't it backfires.

 

[Twin Fist]

here are the facts:

Hamas=terrorist scum

Israel=trying to live life in peace surrounded by irrational enemies bent on thier destruction

there are really only 2 choices:

lay down and die

or

kill the people trying to kill you

they have been using the 3rd option, containment.

That one that doesnt work, as it allows the bad guys to break every cease fire then cry wolf when you hit back

and with so many misguided idiots willing to give the BAD GUYS a pass......


Want the violence to stop? get the islamics to cut the crap.

You all know full well that if the islamics cut thier crap, the Israeli's are perfectly willing to let them live in peace.

 

[Loki]

here are the facts:

Hamas=terrorist scum

Israel=trying to live life in peace surrounded by irrational enemies bent on thier destruction

there are really only 2 choices:

lay down and die

or

kill the people trying to kill you

they have been using the 3rd option, containment.

That one that doesnt work, as it allows the bad guys to break every cease fire then cry wolf when you hit back

and with so many misguided idiots willing to give the BAD GUYS a pass......


Want the violence to stop? get the islamics to cut the crap.

You all know full well that if the islamics cut thier crap, the Israeli's are perfectly willing to let them live in peace.

What does any of this even mean?

 

[Twin Fist]

if you cant figure it out, that explains a LOT.............

 

[Sukerkin]

Now, now, TF, you might want to phrase your responses a little more respectfully when the views of someone who actually lives with this dangerous situation day in and day out are given? Or am I misinterpreting your brevity ?

Modern Israel's history, as Loki can no doubt tell us, has been a battle from day one. I mean no disrespect to the people who live there but the reason for that is that we, the West, 're-invented' a vanished nation by stealing the land of those who have been there for quite some time.

It is not a surprise that the Palestinians have never ceased in their resistance and even less that the extremists amongst them are the ones that have risen to the top as a consequence. It would have been no different if the attempt to give back a homeland to the Jews had been to carve out a New Jerusalem here in Staffordshire, uprooting people who have lived here for millenia. We too would never cease in fighting to repel what was, to us, an invasion - no matter what the odds.

It is how to deal with the consequences of that wrong-headed decision that is the problem. I for one cannot see a way to a solution that is not 'final' in the Third Reich meaning and that, to me, is morally unacceptable.

 

[Twin Fist]

no Mark, i simply cannot believe that ANYONE could be confused by what i wrote. i just re-read what i posted, it is by any standard above "6 year old" pretty easy to understand.

not agree with, but understand. he didnt say he didnt agree, he asked what it meant.

the question seems to indicate that he cant comprehend what i wrote. A reading comprehension problem would explain a LOT.

i was being insulting. Just literal.

 

[Twin Fist]

why wernt the jews in possesion of thier land in the 1940's?

thats right, driven out by muslim agression

whats the current problem?

thats right, muslim agression

what is the biggest threat to the US, and the entire world for that matter?

(do I really need to say it?)

seems like a pattern to me.............

and before anyone throws the racist card again, i dont have a problem with muslims by and large, tho i DO have a problem with islam. The only muslims I have a problem with are the ones that want to KILL EVERY SINGLE PERSON ON THE PLANET THAT ISNT MUSLIM, and the ones that support the ones that do

 

[Sukerkin]

:tup:.

I reckoned that you hadn't meant your follow-up to come across as being so 'cutting' or that, maybe, it was just me with my overly developed 'polite conversation' sensibilities kicking in again .

 

[Twin Fist]

There you go being brittish again.............

seriously, how DO you people ever get into arguments? the divorce rate in England must be little to nil