RBSD And TMAs: Does One Prepare You Better Than The Other?

[thetruth]

If you paid attention it was the long standing members demanding info to the quickest as if you were some master shii..s and attacked. Now you turn it around..please please please!

No actually you are wrong this all started in the PURE thread. As soon as people asked questions you are the ones who got defensive. No one was demanding info they were asking questions which is what forums like this are about are they not??

Cheers
Sam:asian:

 

[thetruth]

Wow, thank you, sir, for all your oh so great wisdom and putting all us common folk in our place. Considering he didn't know your credentials, and "dojo" is a commonly accepted term throughout most arts, his use of the term would have been acceptable to the less pompous. WKF could stand for both "World Kickboxing Federation" and "World Karate Federation" both of which are known and respected world-wide and have been around since the 1970's. You seem to be so knowledgable in the arts. I figured you would have heard of them. It must have just slipped your mind. Oh, and since you seem to be an individual worthy of such demanding respect I should probably let you know that his military credentials are respectable, documented, verifiable, and attainable. "Go Fish." Do you slam all former service members now teaching martial arts or just the ones that teach "reality based systems"? You also wanted proof that he teaches full time and makes a good living at it. Again, that is also documented and verifiable (affirmative on both). If you want it so bad... "go fish." Why are you so insistant on seeing all this proof anyway? It's just a forum. Oh, and speaking of the forum... you should go re-read the rules as well... although based on your post... I'm sure your hypocracy knows no bounds. I'm sure you will no doubt want the last word here oh wise one but I'll go ahead and let you know that I will neither dignify anymore posts from you with a response nor will I return back to this thread. Good day to you all. May you live and train well.

Wow your first post is to jump to this guys defense. Coincidence????? I think not. You are probably the same guy

Cheers
Sam:asian:

 

[Dark Gift Concepts]

No actually you are wrong this all started in the PURE thread. As soon as people asked questions you are the ones who got defensive. No one was demanding info they were asking questions which is what forums like this are about are they not??

Cheers
Sam:asian:

I responded with I would put a Youtube Vid up, but that is not good enough and I was attacked. So if your going to talk , see it for what it is. A bunch of guys p.oed cause the bib wasn't put on you and you not being spoon fed.

 

[Cirdan]

You totally understood it, Oh and your so witty..wow did you think of that one all by your lonesome?

Perhaps you should call it a day now?

 

[Dark Gift Concepts]

Perhaps you should call it a day now?

I keep trying but alas people still want to flame the fire..

 

[thetruth]

I responded with I would put a Youtube Vid up, but that is not good enough and I was attacked. So if your going to talk , see it for what it is. A bunch of guys p.oed cause the bib wasn't put on you and you not being spoon fed.

You informing people of your 'art' is not spoon feeding. What is there to protect?

Cheers
Sam:asian:

 

[Dark Gift Concepts]

You informing people of your 'art' is not spoon feeding. What is there to protect?

Cheers
Sam:asian:

nothing to protect, I have a few projects on my plate and thought the video would have made more sense and would give people visual and verbal stimulation as well I being able to articulate myself better than has been done here.

 

[thetruth]

nothing to protect, I have a few projects on my plate and thought the video would have made more sense and would give people visual and verbal stimulation as well I being able to articulate myself better than has been done here.

If you say so

 

[Dark Gift Concepts]

If you say so

see no matter what , the answer is never good enough from me.. oh well

 

[thetruth]

see no matter what , the answer is never good enough from me.. oh well

Just post your video on you tube dude. Clearly you are not going to explain yourself here

Cheers
Sam:asian:

 

[MJS]

Before I comment on some posts in this thread, I'd like to say a few things. First off, my apologies for not replying sooner. I started this thread, and didn't want to give the impression I forgot about it. Second, this thread has gone on for 5 pages. It looks like we have a good thread with various thoughts on the OP. However, please, before this thread gets locked, can we all do our best to keep things civil. Taking personal shots at one another is going to do nothing but get this thread locked and people removed from the forum. I hate to see locked threads, especially ones that I start, so come on guys, lets tone it down a bit.

 

[MJS]

Going back to page 1, I think KT made some great points. I'm going to also play devils advocate for a moment as well.

Now, IMHO, alot of what is taught in the RBSD systems is really nothing new. Don't get me wrong, there are some things that I've seen that I don't see in a TMA, so in my mind, I take that as new. Example. Tony Blauer and his spear. I havent seen many TMAs using that entry method. As far as whats taught...a punch is a punch, kick is a kick, etc., but alot of it comes down to the delivery method and way of training. Scenario training is big with RBSD, and something that I don't see many TMAs doing.

I've heard and read things such as, "A TMA can't prepare you the way RBSD can!" The TMA folks will usually say that their art has won battles many years ago and still is successful today. I mean really, are the RBSD guys actually saying that nobody who trains in Kenpo, Kajukenbo, TKD, etc., can defend themselves?

IMHO, alot of things come down to the way you train, plain and simple. You could say Kenpo is a TMA, however, I've borrowed many things from other arts, and added them to my own personal training. This has included but is not limited to, ground work, weapons work, methods of applying various techniques, aliveness, resistance, padded suit training, etc.

So, does one need to train in a RBSD art in order to do well in a real world fight? IMO no, however, I'm a big advocate of keeping up with the times. I feel that you can still maintain some traditional roots to your art, but still make subtle changes, add things in, etc.

 

[MJS]

The point i am maknig is that it seems that all RBSD systems today do nothing but knock TMA , and call them useless and archaic. Its all basically branding for them, thats what they want you to think. Thus buy their product etc...... Nowadays there is a big push for RSBD and there are so many of them that are coming out now. In another few years there is going to be so many Mc RSBD's that your head is gonna spin. RSBD wouldn't exist without TMA. That is all I am saying. and Like somoene mentioned before it is not what you train it is how you train. One isn't better than the other. It is just IMO that RSBD lack teh system and structure of TMA and those are needed in training. It is part of the journey. RSBD systems make it sound almost like the Matrix. You plug in and within hours you are capable of defending yourself which is a crock.


You needs years of training to make it a instinctive response and that isn't going to happen in any style in 6 months. RBSD , TMA or not. Why do you think TMA's have been aroudn for so long. RBSD are just a flash in the pan. Sorry if I seem vehement but I obviously am a TMA supporter. Those guys in RBSD are not re-inventing the wheel as much as they think they are.

Well, with all due respect, the same can be said of the TMAs. I've been training long enough to have heard and seen various training methods of the TMAs. I've seen some weapon defense that if applied against someone with intent, would get the defender killed, and I've seen defenses done against static attacks, when in reality, people dont attack that way.

I don't disagree that it does take time to get good at things, however, I don't believe that someone should have to train for 10 or more years before their art will work. Lets look at Krav Maga and their choke defenses. While the strikes and method of execution will vary, the initial defense, the removal of the hands from the neck, is the same, regardless if the attack is from the front, rear or side. The reason, as they say, is to make it easier to think in the heat of the battle. You get grabbed, and the person will probably think, Ok, is this from the front, back or side? Ok, its from the rear, ok, now which of my 10 defenses will I pick from? With the KM method, it doesnt matter how you begin because its all the same.

 

[FearlessFreep]

However, please, before this thread gets locked, can we all do our best to keep things civil.

There have been some on-topic posts interleaved within the noise.

Anyway...on your original question. I think you have set up a false dichotomy. The scope of what constitutes TMA is quite wide and in one sense his hard to define. Everything from old people doing Tai-Chi in slow motion for fitness to US Marines doing H2H for combat training. Some would argue that at either end you are not really doing TMA and I'm not going to quibble on the definition. People have a lot of reasons for studying MA: sport, art, self-defense, fitness, whatever. Most people do some combination.

RBSD, I think, is orthogonal. It's a training method and a mindset. As such, I think the training approach can be incorporated into a self-defense training regime that would be based on TMA. In other words, you can do your Tae Kwon Do for Sport, or you can do your Tae Kwon Do for combat (or both), but if you are doing Tae Kwon Do for combat, then you can incorporate RNSD training methods and approaches into learning to practically apply your Tae Kwon Do techniques to real world scenarios.

I don't think it's a TMA versus RBSD issue. I think the study of Martial Arts is a very complex, multi-dimensional pursuit that everyone approaches in their own way for their own goals. RBSD is something that can fit within the training goals and methods of some for which those sorts of scenarios and tactics are important

 

[MJS]

here is my 0.02 cents

The 3 Categories of Martial Arts

"When the mind is tethered to a center, naturally it is not FREE; it can move only within the LIMITS of that center." -Bruce Lee.
TRADITIONAL MARTIAL ARTS vs. M.M.A.SPORT vs. REALITY-BASED MARTIAL ARTS
Martial arts can be divided into 3 categories: Traditional Martial Arts, Mixed Martial Arts, Reality-Based Martial Arts. The problem is that, thanks to movies, TV, Internet, You Tube, Instructors, ect., there is no actual proof of any one method of fighting being completely dominant in all situations. Martial Artists have blurred it to the point of non-existence. While all have many overlapping elements, it is important for you to understand that each category is distinctively different and must be treated as such.
TRADITIONAL MARTIAL ARTS Traditional martial arts contain every style from traditional Karate, Hapkido, Kenpo, Escrima, Aikido, and kung fu, to the countless other cultural traditional martial arts that have been developed throughout history. Some traditional martial arts systems originate from military combat experience and self defense needs for people. These systems have been tested and proven under realistic conditions back in the 500 CE era, when they FOUGHT with HONOR, but has not been PROVEN in MODEREN DAY. Things have changed in this world we live in but, none the less, all of these arets are fun to do, help get you into shape, instill discipline, and are great for kids. They can all be very interesting and provide an education in world culture and martial arts theory. However, no cultural fighting art has any proof of dominant effectiveness in the modern world. That means that Aikido, Karate,Tae-Kwon-Do, Kung Fu, and countless other cultural traditional martial arts, even including Israel's "Krav Maga", are not proven effective in combat or street application. Nor does it even classify as proven effective in combative sport such as U.F.C. and cage fighting. So, without an abundance of proof, it is only martial theory, not fact. Even with their pretty forms, they have no place in self protection. Don’t get me wrong, all of these styles can POSSIBLY help you out of a tough jam because a scientific way of combat is better than NO way of combat. However, traditional martial arts instructors give there student a false sense of security. Traditional martial arts DO NOT TEACH the necessary reality-Based Scenarios or resistance training in order to prepare you for the stress of a real life situation.
MIXED MARTIAL ARTS & COMBATIVE SPORT M.M.A. & Combative Sports include Olympic judo, Brazilian Jiu-jitsu, Muay Thai kickboxing, all forms of wrestling, western boxing, and M.M.A., which has been popularized by events such as the Ultimate Fighting Championship (UFC). In combative sport, you are forced to prove the effectiveness of your methods and skill in live combat. There is no guesswork nor debate. It either works and you win, or it doesn't work and you lose. Everybody in the world saw Combat Sport Brazilian Jiu-jujitsu stylist Royce Gracie easily pick apart the cultural fighting art practitioners in the first few Ultimate Fighting Championships. If you watch Olympic Judo, you'll see the highest caliber athletes in the world competing in a sport that is symbolic of combat in that the entire basis is to establish a dominant position. Combative Sport is a very, very important component of testing the validity and effectiveness of a martial art. HOWEVER, it too is not reality-based martial arts or combat driven. It is only a training and conditioning method for self-defense. Combative sport is what you use to train yourself to make sure that your self-defense works under sport conditions. A great example is, simply, that that the rules, regulations, and referees that are required in combative sport are NOT going to be there when someone is trying mug you, rape you, trying to hurt a family member, or trying to kill you in a dark alley. Therefore, NO, even today's most popular training methods: Brazilian jiu-jitsu, Muay Thai, Wrestling, Judo, Boxing, Mixed Martial Arts, etc. are not methods of reality-based martial arts either.

REALITY-BASED MARTIAL ARTS The definition of the term "Reality-Based" is, training and survival skills based on modern conflict situations that the practitioner is likely to encounter in their environment (their "reality").
Sounds simple right? The real issue is that there are a million-and-one different ways you can be attacked. Everything from a drunk tackling you at the local bar to an armed mugging on your way home from work, a carjacking, or being caught in the middle of a military or terrorist operation. Therefore, Reality-Based Martial Arts have one purpose, and one purpose only; To survive. What we mean is that no sane person, soldiers, professional fighters, or trained martial artists truly want to hurt or kill a human being. But when it comes to bodily injury or a "kill or be killed" situation, your natural survival instinct WILL take over and do whatever it can to save your life so you can go home to your family. Learning to properly defend yourself is much more than just avoiding injury, humiliation, or even death. Our greatest enemy of all is : Fear & Incorrect Training. There IS no 100% answer to anything, but when it comes to matters of bodily injury, life and death, or protecting loved ones, the smart thing to do is stack the odds in your favor.

A few questions for you:

1) Regarding the first part on TMA. You say that there is no proof that these have worked in real fights in the present. How do you know this? This sir, sounds like the usual comments from the BJJ nutriders that you see on certain forums, that defend BJJ and Royce tooth and nail. If its not on tape, blah, blah, blah. I don't know about you, but I don't walk around with a camcorder. So again, I ask, how do you know?

2) Regarding MMA. I do not doubt that these guys are tough, however, they're fighting in a controlled setting, with rules, no restrictive clothing, gloves, can't target certain areas, a padded mat, no weapons, no interference from bystanders.

3) RBSD. Is there proof that RBSD has worked in the present? And please don't say what the MMA/Gracie nutriders say, that BJJ is taught to the Military, so if thats the case, it must be good, blah, blah. If I had a dime for everyone that said they taught the militray, I'd be a multi millionare.

No disrespect intended, and you and I have had some good discussion on here on another thread and I thank you for that. As I have said, I enjoy MMA, I enjoy TMA, and I enjoy RBSD. Everyone can and should be learning from each other as everyone will benefit.

 

[MJS]

There have been some on-topic posts interleaved within the noise.

Yes, I agree. I wasnt talking about the on topic ones, I was talking about the off topic, personal slams and outright rude posts, that some people have been making. Its those posts that are the ants at the picnic.

Anyway...on your original question. I think you have set up a false dichotomy. The scope of what constitutes TMA is quite wide and in one sense his hard to define. Everything from old people doing Tai-Chi in slow motion for fitness to US Marines doing H2H for combat training. Some would argue that at either end you are not really doing TMA and I'm not going to quibble on the definition. People have a lot of reasons for studying MA: sport, art, self-defense, fitness, whatever. Most people do some combination.

For the purpose of this thread, anything that does not fall into the RBSD category could be deemed traditional. But you are correct, the scope can be pretty wide.

RBSD, I think, is orthogonal. It's a training method and a mindset. As such, I think the training approach can be incorporated into a self-defense training regime that would be based on TMA. In other words, you can do your Tae Kwon Do for Sport, or you can do your Tae Kwon Do for combat (or both), but if you are doing Tae Kwon Do for combat, then you can incorporate RNSD training methods and approaches into learning to practically apply your Tae Kwon Do techniques to real world scenarios.

Agreed. IMHO, if someone is really serious about SD, it wouldn't be a bad idea to incorporate some of those methods.

 

[D.G.C.F.S.]

A few questions for you:

1) Regarding the first part on TMA. You say that there is no proof that these have worked in real fights in the present. How do you know this? This sir, sounds like the usual comments from the BJJ nutriders that you see on certain forums, that defend BJJ and Royce tooth and nail. If its not on tape, blah, blah, blah. I don't know about you, but I don't walk around with a camcorder. So again, I ask, how do you know?

2) Regarding MMA. I do not doubt that these guys are tough, however, they're fighting in a controlled setting, with rules, no restrictive clothing, gloves, can't target certain areas, a padded mat, no weapons, no interference from bystanders.

3) RBSD. Is there proof that RBSD has worked in the present? And please don't say what the MMA/Gracie nutriders say, that BJJ is taught to the Military, so if thats the case, it must be good, blah, blah. If I had a dime for everyone that said they taught the militray, I'd be a multi millionare.

No disrespect intended, and you and I have had some good discussion on here on another thread and I thank you for that. As I have said, I enjoy MMA, I enjoy TMA, and I enjoy RBSD. Everyone can and should be learning from each other as everyone will benefit.

First Thank you for the respect you are showing me I *bow* with respect.
ok
1) but I don't walk around with a camcorder. So again, I ask, how do you know?
I know this cause I teach Instructors from different Styles R.B.M.A. and SOME are on my website that have giving me their Testimonials. That what they have been training in was not practical or applicable for a street encounter. "BUT I DID NOT REPLACE WHAT LEARN" JUST add more tools to their box of GOODIES. these are INSTRUCTORS, not just black belts, but If you like on my website you will see Instructors under me with a wide range of credentials.

2) did not understand the question? it looks like you are agree with me.



3)Is there proof that RBSD has worked in the present?
yes again my sifu Paul vunak has trained navy seals team 5 and on, I also have trained S.F. teams,officers, special agents and they have come from the field and STATED hey it WORKS... again it is on my website.

I do have credentials and IF any one here would go fish, they will see that I am not a wanna be or a paper DRAGON, and half of credentials are not even posted yet on my site "slow webmaster" lol
Thank you for this GREAT DEBATE
I *bow* with respect

 

[Kacey]

Something else to remember when comparing RBSD and TMA systems - different people are looking for different things when they start training. I started TKD because the guy I was dating at the time talked me into it - and something in it just "clicked" and I never left; that was 21 years ago. What I fell in love with was patterns, a mainstay of many TMAs. Had he taken me to something else, without the patterns, I probably would not have stayed in.

Do I have the same level of "street" training that I could get in a RBSD system? Possibly, and possibly not - but what do have is more than I would have without the training I have. Ultimately, the wide range of styles should enthuse, rather than enrage, those who espouse their own style - because the wider the range of styles available, the more people who will be exposed to some type of self-defense system - whether it's the system you are involved in or not, whether the system is, in your opinion, the most effective or not. There are styles I would love to add to what I have, and there are styles I have no interest in whatsoever - and I'm sure the same is true for most others here.

But the way to interest people in the style you (any "you" out there) love is not to put down what they already do - that only makes people defensive. The way to interest people in other styles is to engage in open discourse about pros and cons - and there is no system, no matter how good, that doesn't have cons of some type; claiming a system is "perfect" is a good way to drive people off.

 

[MJS]

First Thank you for the respect you are showing me I *bow* with respect.
ok

See, this is what I like....a good discussion with civil debating. I may not agree or disagree with everything that is said on these forums, but I always try, and yes, its hard at times, to stay somewhat civil. Makes fora much nicer thread.

1) but I don't walk around with a camcorder. So again, I ask, how do you know?
I know this cause I teach Instructors from different Styles R.B.M.A. and SOME are on my website that have giving me their Testimonials. That what they have been training in was not practical or applicable for a street encounter. "BUT I DID NOT REPLACE WHAT LEARN" JUST add more tools to their box of GOODIES. these are INSTRUCTORS, not just black belts, but If you like on my website you will see Instructors under me with a wide range of credentials.

Likewise, I didn't replace what I have learned either, just added some things in. There are so many things out there, that to not look at everything is a dis-service to ones training. Hey, I'm not ashamed to say that I took something from art X. If it works for me and I can use it, hell yeah I'm going to take it.

There are things in Kenpo that I'd probably never use if my life depended on it, but someone else may find value in it and be able to make it work. Just because I don't care for it, let someone else decide if it'll work for them. Some may ask, "Well, if you know it wont work, why teach it?" Like I said, if it didnt work for me, how do I know it wont for them. So, now we have this: What worked 50yrs ago may not work today. Some may find it odd that a defense that worked then, doesnt work now. However, I wouldn't say that the past is no good in the present. So take Kenpo or Kaju. 2 arts that have been around a while. I'd be hard pressed to say that those folks today cant defend themselves.

2) did not understand the question? it looks like you are agree with me.

My bad. I should've read further down, as I just read the first few lines and I misunderstood.

3)Is there proof that RBSD has worked in the present?
yes again my sifu Paul vunak has trained navy seals team 5 and on, I also have trained S.F. teams,officers, special agents and they have come from the field and STATED hey it WORKS... again it is on my website.

I do have credentials and IF any one here would go fish, they will see that I am not a wanna be or a paper DRAGON, and half of credentials are not even posted yet on my site "slow webmaster" lol
Thank you for this GREAT DEBATE
I *bow* with respect

I don't believe I have said that you were a fake, a paper dragon or anything like that. So, in addition to the folks you mention, are there civilians in your school, that say that it works for them? Again, I'm looking to hear about the average person, not military. So in a round about way, this goes back to question #1. I don't know, but it seems to me, that unless it's taped, there're written statements or something on a site, then the word of someone is no good.

 

[D.G.C.F.S.]

No offense mate but given you have been a member here for less than 2 weeks, perhaps you may be a contributor to the mindless blather to which you refer.

It seems strange that all of a sudden there are 3 or 4 people on this forum that seem to all be related to you in some way. Something fishy is going on here.

Cheers
Sam:asian:

this is what The Last Legionary wrote:

People seem to confuse "effective" arts with "preservationist" arts and "sport" arts. They then go off and "reinvent" things, trying to "improve" them and "modernize" them.
I've found that usually means they never actually understood things.
"Wheel Reinvention" is a common problem in the martial arts.
Most of those doing it aren't worth wasting time with when you have perfectly good, time honed systems already in existence. All that is lacking are instructors who really understand their art, and students who have the mind to see things properly.

Of course, I like wooden trainers, rattan mats, and the occasional folding chair. Save the "high tech" crap, super foam floors and AC for the hobbyists.

Ok, back to reading all the infomercials and mindless blather that seem to be flooding the site lately. Buy some ad space and stop being leaches already, geeze.
__________________

nemo malus felix​

"Unless you do your best, the day will come when, tired and hungry, you will halt just short of the goal you were ordered to reach, and by halting you will make useless the efforts and deaths of thousands." - Gen. George S. Patton

I just responded back, sorry you did not like:ultracool