Ranking Martial Arts for Self Defensw

[Gerry Seymour]

the tl;dr version is that they created a relative ranking system. They did give arts a letter grading, with S at the top, then A through F, though I think in the end it was calibrated mostly to be a ranking of arts relative to each other.

The simple criteria was how well prepared folks were after a 'year or two' of training in the styles as they are commonly trained.

The video is so long, because they actually chat about each style at length, so whether or not you agree with them, you'll at least understand their rationale for where they placed the style and why.

So, the question is, how would you rank the following styles? If you don't know or aren't comfortable ranking a style, just ignore it. If you're not interested in participating, it's okay. Don't sweat it. Just a little fun. I'll list all the styles out below, in the order they ended them with in the video.

Tier 1: Wrestling and catch wrestling
Tier 2: GJJ and MMA
Tier 3: BJJ, Judo, Muay Thai, and Lethwei
Tier 4: Kickboxing
Tier 5: Western Boxing
Tier 6: Capoeira, JJJ, Karate, JKD, Kenpo, Krav Maga
Tier 7: Kali/Escrima
Tier 8: Aikido, TKD, WC
Tier 9: Ninjutsu, Pencak Silat, Systema, and Tai Chi

There are a few on there I might go try to find on the video when I have a chance - I'm curious about things like the difference in their rating on GJJ/BJJ, and why boxing was so low (I'd tend to rank it above kickboxing). As for much of the stuff from 6 down, it depends a lot how it's trained. I've seen schools in each of those tiers I'd rank lower, and some I'd rank a lot higher. This is the issue I have with gross rankings like this - they're more an intellectual curiosity.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I would put kali higher, too. And I am a big fan of sumo. I’d also out TKD a little higher than they did.

Personally, I’d also put parkour somewhere in there… slightly below the middle…though it’s not technically a martial art.

If we include escape in the realm of SD, it definitely deserves a spot. In some situations, it'd be better than fighting.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Theoretically everyone is wearing no gi though. Even if they have a gi their neck doesn't disappear so you have one method for both circumstances.

But I do both and also advocate that you can do multiple styles without too much drama.

Offense that works without a gi basically works with one. Defense that works with a gi basically works without one. I don't find the inverse of either of those statements to be true - training both carries a lot of advantages.

 

[BigDon]

Hell i wanna be Bruce Lee . This is wild

 

[BigDon]

If we include escape in the realm of SD, it definitely deserves a spot. In some situations, it'd be better than fighting.

Sounds cowardly

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Sounds cowardly

Sounds like you have a need to make a point.

 

[Steve]

There are a few on there I might go try to find on the video when I have a chance - I'm curious about things like the difference in their rating on GJJ/BJJ, and why boxing was so low (I'd tend to rank it above kickboxing). As for much of the stuff from 6 down, it depends a lot how it's trained.

That’s a point they made in the video and they based their ranking on how the style is generally trained. So there may be a ninja somewhere who can defend himself, but most don’t train that way.

I've seen schools in each of those tiers I'd rank lower, and some I'd rank a lot higher. This is the issue I have with gross rankings like this - they're more an intellectual curiosity.

Yeah. Just something to talk about.

 

[drop bear]

Sounds cowardly

It isn’t. Because courage should have a point to it. Otherwise it is insecurity.

I mean if you gain nothing from the fight. It isn’t cowardly to run from it.

 

[Alan0354]

Xiaodong is the top dog in Kung Fu. Very hot right now, Xu Xiaodong.

Did you know he started in San Shou and boxing before he decided to become the new face of Kung Fu Gong Sao?

Far as I understand, he is MMA, which of cause mixing what he learned before and ADD into his skill. That's the whole point, what ever you learn, pick only the moves that works and eliminate what's not. Putting them together to become MMA. Whether people like to hear it or not, NO one style is perfect, there are always some good points and some stupid moves, strong in one part and weak in another part.

MMA is not exactly a style, people just look at different style and pick out moves that work from each style and ignore those that doesn't. Like MMA use Wing Chung step front kick to the knee quite a bit, it works. MMA seems to take a lot from Muy Thai and BJJ where they are the top tear of striking and grappling resp. they mix in Tae Kwon Do kicks, boxing footwork and others that I don't know. I learn Wing Chung before, that's why I can tell right away on the front step kick to the knee.

Like for me, I am short, I have to practice fighting a tall guy. I pick out part of the Wing Chung punch that use the baby finger knuckle to hit instead of the two big knuckle. When punching high, it's hard to punch with big knuckles, baby knuckle is the easiest to reach high. Wing Chung punch also have a nudging motion using the wrist when punch to add power, it takes practice, but it does add to the power.

But of cause I don't follow WC that punch with shoulder square, that would be stupid. Punch like boxing(the best punching so far) using feet, waist and shoulder, together with the nudging of the WC to add the power together. AND that would be really stupid to practice WC sticky hands for real fight. Ha ha, how do you stick to the hands when the other person dancing around you, jump in to attack, jump out right after that. WC footwork is so slow, they can never catch up.

Bottom line, MMA is NOT exactly a style, it's about picking out the best of each style and incorporate into the fighting. Xu Xiaodung just put them together. I wonder how well he can do in the Octagon.

It is very unfortunate that instead of be humble and open their mind and learn, a lot of styles resort to bad mouthing, making excuses. They defend to their death their style rather look at it objectively and learn to cover their short comings. If you look at UFC fights and compare every 5 years, it's amazing how much they change. You watch how they fight, you can guess when was the match taped. Even MMA is constantly improving. Imagine how behind are those styles that stick to what was taught hundreds of year ago!!!!

 

[Oily Dragon]

Far as I understand, he is MMA, which of cause mixing what he learned before and ADD into his skill. That's the whole point, what ever you learn, pick only the moves that works and eliminate what's not. Putting them together to become MMA. Whether people like to hear it or not, NO one style is perfect, there are always some good points and some stupid moves, strong in one part and weak in another part.

MMA is not exactly a style, people just look at different style and pick out moves that work from each style and ignore those that doesn't. Like MMA use Wing Chung step front kick to the knee quite a bit, it works. MMA seems to take a lot from Muy Thai and BJJ where they are the top tear of striking and grappling resp. they mix in Tae Kwon Do kicks, boxing footwork and others that I don't know. I learn Wing Chung before, that's why I can tell right away on the front step kick to the knee.

Like for me, I am short, I have to practice fighting a tall guy. I pick out part of the Wing Chung punch that use the baby finger knuckle to hit instead of the two big knuckle. When punching high, it's hard to punch with big knuckles, baby knuckle is the easiest to reach high. Wing Chung punch also have a nudging motion using the wrist when punch to add power, it takes practice, but it does add to the power.

But of cause I don't follow WC that punch with shoulder square, that would be stupid. Punch like boxing(the best punching so far) using feet, waist and shoulder, together with the nudging of the WC to add the power together. AND that would be really stupid to practice WC sticky hands for real fight. Ha ha, how do you stick to the hands when the other person dancing around you, jump in to attack, jump out right after that. WC footwork is so slow, they can never catch up.

Bottom line, MMA is NOT exactly a style, it's about picking out the best of each style and incorporate into the fighting. Xu Xiaodung just put them together. I wonder how well he can do in the Octagon.

It is very unfortunate that instead of be humble and open their mind and learn, a lot of styles resort to bad mouthing, making excuses. They defend to their death their style rather look at it objectively and learn to cover their short comings. If you look at UFC fights and compare every 5 years, it's amazing how much they change. You watch how they fight, you can guess when was the match taped. Even MMA is constantly improving. Imagine how behind are those styles that stick to what was taught hundreds of year ago!!!!

I am very fortunate to have a lot of MMA fighter friends (male and female) who are also deeply into Kung Fu.

One of them knows Wing Chun and BJJ. That's rad, imho, and kind of intimidating.

Another lives breathes and eats full contact standup for every meal for a decade. Got his start in the San Shou scene. He's now a pro, making a name for himself and some coin too.

My distant Kung Fu cousin teaches a blend of MMA, CMA, and FMA. A short pro record, but one of the best dudes I have ever encountered.

The common element between these people was their dedication to their craft, and what I think gets lost nowadays is the amount of PHYSICAL prep required to gain skill. That's really what these colored belts and ranks are supposed to be about, but in a lot of cases we see different.

Everyone thinks they have the mental game down, but take a look at the physical and that's how reasonable and rational people judge. You fully understand the art of Wing Chun? Great, now show me what the great Chi Loong looks like on the ground. The Wing Chun/BJJ dude figured it out...

 

[Alan0354]

I am very fortunate to have a lot of MMA fighter friends (male and female) who are also deeply into Kung Fu.

One of them knows Wing Chun and BJJ. That's rad, imho, and kind of intimidating.

Another lives breathes and eats full contact standup for every meal for a decade. Got his start in the San Shou scene. He's now a pro, making a name for himself and some coin too.

My distant Kung Fu cousin teaches a blend of MMA, CMA, and FMA. A short pro record, but one of the best dudes I have ever encountered.

The common element between these people was their dedication to their craft, and what I think gets lost nowadays is the amount of PHYSICAL prep required to gain skill. That's really what these colored belts and ranks are supposed to be about, but in a lot of cases we see different.

Everyone thinks they have the mental game down, but take a look at the physical and that's how reasonable and rational people judge. You fully understand the art of Wing Chun? Great, now show me what the great Chi Loong looks like on the ground. The Wing Chun/BJJ dude figured it out...

I am glad to hear there are a lot of people that blend different styles together. They create their own MMA. That's the spirit of MMA.

Now, I am no expert like you guys, I just have eyes to watch. I am not a beginner, got a few years of kick boxing under my belt, that's about it. NO, I am NOT an expert in WC, just learn it a little while. I do put in thoughts what can I use out of the little I learned. I had almost a year of Judo when I was a kid, I am practice close up fight on the heavy bag by using more elbows and knees, then I actually grab the bag, turn my hip in and attempt to throw the heavy bag using Judo I learn!!!!

Yes, it's one thing to talk about fighting skill, IT IS SO IMPORTANT TO WORK ON CONDITIONING. I put in like 7hrs a week, still half the time is on weight training. If one doesn't have the strength, all the fighting skill will not go very far. It's like you don't need a lot of power to break bones if you have the skill......BUT to juggle into the perfect position where you don't need power to break bones, you need a whole lot of strength to get into the position.
I am here mainly in learning stick fight, just occasionally join here to talk a little.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I am glad to hear there are a lot of people that blend different styles together. They create their own MMA. That's the spirit of MMA.

Now, I am no expert like you guys, I just have eyes to watch. I am not a beginner, got a few years of kick boxing under my belt, that's about it. NO, I am NOT an expert in WC, just learn it a little while. I do put in thoughts what can I use out of the little I learned. I had almost a year of Judo when I was a kid, I am practice close up fight on the heavy bag by using more elbows and knees, then I actually grab the bag, turn my hip in and attempt to throw the heavy bag using Judo I learn!!!!

Yes, it's one thing to talk about fighting skill, IT IS SO IMPORTANT TO WORK ON CONDITIONING. I put in like 7hrs a week, still half the time is on weight training. If one doesn't have the strength, all the fighting skill will not go very far. It's like you don't need a lot of power to break bones if you have the skill......BUT to juggle into the perfect position where you don't need power to break bones, you need a whole lot of strength to get into the position.
I am here mainly in learning stick fight, just occasionally join here to talk a little.

For a lot of people who train MA, they are looking to improve their odds and enjoy a new hobby. Their priorities lie in other areas, so they will not be working on that kind of conditioning. And that’s a reasonable choice.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

For a lot of people who train MA, they are looking to improve their odds and enjoy a new hobby. Their priorities lie in other areas, so they will not be working on that kind of conditioning. And that’s a reasonable choice.

Nothing wrong with that. I focus on fundamentals and conditioning. Unless someone is competing, it has the most usefulness outside the gym. People have all sorts of reasons for training, all of which are valid. That said, we have an extra class for those who are really pursuing a higher level of skill. Those individuals are held to a much higher standard.

 

[drop bear]

For a lot of people who train MA, they are looking to improve their odds and enjoy a new hobby. Their priorities lie in other areas, so they will not be working on that kind of conditioning. And that’s a reasonable choice.

In the theme of ranking a style for self defence though.

 

[Alan0354]

For a lot of people who train MA, they are looking to improve their odds and enjoy a new hobby. Their priorities lie in other areas, so they will not be working on that kind of conditioning. And that’s a reasonable choice.

I don't consider I am serious training. Still I think MA and weight training should go hand in hand instead of putting all the effort in MA and not doing any strength training. It's like one that can only bench 100lbs better have better skill than one that can bench 225lbs. Actually if I have to bet, I still put my bet on the one that bench 225lbs over the 100lbs with better skill.

Not only that, weight training in correct way can really speed up heeling from injuries. In my old age, injuries is a daily routine thing, I credit weight training with particular exercise keep me going all this time. Look at the pro athletes, they are able to compete at the highest level to older age. The main reason is weight training. I myself had sever back problem from all the TKD high kicks. In 1987, I could not even stand for 2 minutes without tingling going from lower body to the toes. Forget about MA training. Luckily the hospital that did back surgery on Joe Montana(49ers QB at the time) put me on PT with weights. That changed my life, I slowly recover. Now I can do bag work, stick fight all credit to the weight training I learned at the time.

I think it's deceiving for people to say if one has proper technique, they don't need strength to overcome a stronger person. Unless the stronger person doesn't know any MA, the weak person will have a hell of a time defeating the stronger person. I would say skill and weight training should be 50:50.

Now, I AM NOT THAT STRONG, I was the one that could not bench 100lbs at the peak of my training in the 80s. I am still not strong, just better. I could muscle out a few reps of 225lbs 10 years ago, but I got weaker since. Before the pandemic 3 years ago, I only bench 185lbs and curl 40lbs dumbbell. Now I workout at home, I cannot measure the bench anymore. I am just wearing 2 weighted jacket total to 75lbs exact and do pushups with feet on the high chair. I do 4 sets of 22, 20, 18 and 13 reps resp. that's all I can do. I am 69 already. BUT, I still think strength training is very important, not only for MA and self defense. But it is so important for every day life also, particular to live independently(at old age, you don't talk fighting, just living!!!). If I have to choose between MA and weight train and can only take one, it's a no brainer, I drop MA in a heart beat.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

In the theme of ranking a style for self defence though.

The post seemed to be more about what the individual puts in (referencing his several hours per week of conditioning work), which isn't really style-dependent. I put in a lot less conditioning work than I used to, but my style hasn't changed.

 

[Alan0354]

The post seemed to be more about what the individual puts in (referencing his several hours per week of conditioning work), which isn't really style-dependent. I put in a lot less conditioning work than I used to, but my style hasn't changed.

Conditioning is not style dependent, but it enhance whatever style you are practicing. I believe it is very important both in self defense and injury recovery. It is particular important on injury recovery so people can keep on training. Like I said, look at the age of the top athletes, a lot of them are still on the top at older age mainly because of conditioning that has nothing to do with their main sports.

For me, I had knee problem(no apparent injury, just started one day when I was 65). I could not kick that hard in the air for a while. I did not give up, I experiment different knee exercise and now I am ok. I have been fixing my own injuries and pain for years with a lot of success through different weight exercise.

If not for anything, it keeps you in the game. For old people, this reduce the joint pain and give people a better quality of life. I am glad St Mary's hospital put me on PT with weights after they exhausted all other treatments short of surgery, that change my life.

 

[lklawson]

Find a better place, it's just the idea of learning MMA. I am too old, I never really look into learning MMA,

What are you, 90? You're not too old to study/practice under MMA style rule sets/"style." You may be too old to successfully compete, but that's a different thing.

If you want to do some MMA, then go do some.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Alan0354]

What are you, 90? You're not too old to study/practice under MMA style rule sets/"style." You may be too old to successfully compete, but that's a different thing.

If you want to do some MMA, then go do some.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

I am only 69, but I also have back injury, I have to do a lot of conditioning to keep up with what I am doing, I don't think I want to challenge my back more on ground work.

 

[drop bear]

What are you, 90? You're not too old to study/practice under MMA style rule sets/"style." You may be too old to successfully compete, but that's a different thing.

If you want to do some MMA, then go do some.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

It is an interesting dilemma that one.

He could train MMA because he could do it at any pace. But training live with resistance would be difficult.

So then is there a component he could possibly do? So potentially boxing mabye?

That would at least provide a core skill.

(We do have a 70 year old train with us but he is basically all of judo. And a monster. So he didn't just wake up one day and start MMA)