Ramblings on Symposium DVD reviews

[Bob Hubbard]

There are some very intersting tidbits of information on the Symposium DVD Series, Bram Frank, Dan Anderson and Tom Bolden, stood out as the better known "names" entering the Symposium weekend. Tim Kashino, Peter Vargas, John Ralston, Dawud Muhammad and Paul Martin, earned kudos for their work at the Symposium and as "unknowns", they showed a great deal of presence, skill and knowledge. Collectively, everyone of the above mentioned people made the 2003 Modern Arnis Symposium a success. I urge everyone to buy a set of DVDs.

The interesting thing is that to the best of my knowledge, Bram Frank and Tom Bolden are friends of Barbers, as well as business associates. (Barber is a distributor for Brams "Gunting", for example.) Dan Anderson regularly does seminars with Barber when he is in town. The endorement lacks impartiality.

Additionally, Tim Kashino & Paul Martin are or were students of Barbers. Both Vargas and Muhammad have or had a business relationship with Barber. I am unaware of what relationship there is with Mr. Ralston.

All of those cited by Dr. Barber as being exceptional are in some way connected to him. Those he does not mention, are not. The 'Rub' being given in this review smacks of 'good ol boy'ness.

When the different factions of the IMAF, Marppio and bulk of the WMAA leadership are absent from the event and the WMAA's lead instructor can not get even a single student from his own hometown to attend the Symposium which was being held in his hometown - there can be no doubt that Modern Arnis is an organizationally fractionalized art.

The instructors I was interested in seeing bailed, and the majority of those placed on the bill held little interest to me given the lack of Arnis flavor. I train with Tim, and support his events. I've seen Dan at a few camps and am currently (slowly) working through his books. The only 'name' in the Arnis world that was still on the bill, and made it in was Dieter. I regret not spending more time chatting with him when I had the chance b4 the event. The rest of the bill either were outside my areas of interest, or weren't Arnis. I wanted to see Kelly Worden, Dan M. and a few of the other names who dropped out. The replacements didn't interest me, competent though they were.

I think a more important point here is, for an event that was so big, the fact that the 'names' and players choose to avoid it speaks volumes. Dr.B did get 2 outta the 6 Datus to instruct. But Kelly and Tim are regularly doing that. There were no Presas' there...They were at Kellys. Of the US based organizations, neither IMAF faction, nor the WMAC had a leadship presence. Only the WMAA was there in person. Dieter represented Germany...but where was the Philipians rep? At Kellys.

So, given the choice between training with a few folks I've already seen, and the replacement B team, or doing something fun, exciting and possibly profitable, I picked the later.

I went to Toronto and spent some time chatting with Chris Owens and Jason Carter. (Warning, Chris is now considered a pixie-stick addict and assumed goofy. Approach with caution. )

The debacle that happened behind the scenes afterward only reinforced my own attitude that it was the right thing to do. I'm sure the training that went on on the floor was excellent. Its the game playing and other BS that went on for over a year thats left a sour taste in my own mouth where Barber and his events are concerned. His suspension will be up on the 18th.

I haven't seen the videos themselves. Hopefully I'll have a chance to do so soon, and we can hope for a review in the magazine.


Oh...as to the "names" bit...see here: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?&threadid=8298
Its old, but still interesting on just how well 'known' folks are online.

Peas. (Green, mashed)

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Originally posted by DoxN4cer
Just an observation, Bob... the same could be said about this forum.

Tim

It could be..but wouldn't be anywhere near as true. Kelly Worden and I are not anywhere near the 'warm n fuzzy' stage. Yet the main reason I was interested in the Symp. was to meet him. Despite the few personal differences between us, I do respect him as a martial artist. Tims my instructor. I make no secrets of that. Dan is a contributor to MT Magazine, so I have a business relationship there. If I think either are wrong, I've let em both know. Barber claims Tim didn't do squat to promote the event, yet -every- class I was in for month leading up it was mentioned, as well as the flyer hanging clearly on the news board.

The simple truth is that of all the major US orgs, only the WMAA was there, and were repayed by Barbers little game of one-upmanship. Its a case of someone who doesn't have much 'pull' in the Arnis world trying to be the big fish, and the real big fish mostly ignored him.

Another point is that even with 3 of the 4 Top names in the Arnis world (Dan, Dieter and Tim) at the event, it still failed to be the 'event of the century' as it was billed. Purhaps more time should have been spent on promotion (a web site woulda been nice as a central clearing house of information) and organization (Food Good) than the behind the scenes crap involving Barber and a few of his students. Maybe letting people know about changes in a timely manner? But thats more a reflection of the character of the organizer (who double booked himself on events and never told the MT camp host he wasn't coming until cornered and asked) than the quality of the event. (Anyone who thinks I'm being harsh and is a late comer here, do a search on the term "Norshadow"...it'll be clear.)

Those who were there seem to agree that the floor was a good place, and that the video is good. I look forward to borrowing a set and seeing for myself.

Now...do we continue to rehash the BS, or can we focus on some more video reviews of this event?

:asian:

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Originally posted by Rich Parsons
Tim,

To be honest, no I have not watched them. For all the stuff that happened behind the scenes did leave a bad taste in my mouth, and I wanted time to go by first before I review it, to be as fair and open minded as possible.

Regards

Agreed! If you remember bring it to the camp. I'll have my laptop with me so we can watch it.

 

[arnisador]

Dr. Barber's review does seem somewhat...biased.

Of course, I was not at the event.

 

[arnisador]

Thanks for the info. Mr. Anderson!

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Rich Parsons
Were you there in 1987 at the Michigan Camp when Rocky and Remy gave an excellant display of sitck work, that was more Balintawak deriviative than Main Stream Modern Arnis?

I was there, and it was the first time I had heard of Balintawak. Rocky was kind enough to show me a little on the side--just a taste.

 

[Red Blade]

I thouhgt some of you might find this interesting!

Hello to All Forum Members,

I have completed my review of the entire 2003 International Modern Arnis Symposisum DVD set and I was very impressed with the production, lighting editing and content. If there is a problem with any of the first three mentioned items then the last one - content, is meaningless. George, you did good!!

Because I was the host/sponsor, I waited to see what others had to say about the both the Symposium and the DVD's; that has now happened and it is appropriate for me to speak up without feeling like I "selling" my own accomplishments.

The instructional presentations were well done for the most part. All of the people were recorded and then presented sans editing and splicing. That's a good thing because each presentation is completely in context. It is true that some people were picked up at the begining of their particular presentation and others were picked up in mid-presentation, however with only one camera on the floor that was unavoidable. On the other hand, no one who was recorded has been misrepresented. It was very clear to me as I reviewed the DVDs that those people who were really talented, knowledgable and creative stood out.

There are some very intersting tidbits of information on the Symposium DVD Series, Bram Frank, Dan Anderson and Tom Bolden, stood out as the better known "names" entering the Symposium weekend. Tim Kashino, Peter Vargas, John Ralston, Dawud Muhammad and Paul Martin, earned kudos for their work at the Symposium and as "unknowns", they showed a great deal of presence, skill and knowledge. Collectively, everyone of the above mentioned people made the 2003 Modern Arnis Symposium a success. I urge everyone to buy a set of DVDs.

There was a lot of crapping and bad-mouthing about the Symposium BEFORE the event even happened. Some others, bad mouthed the event afterwards, in spite of the fact they did not attend event and therefore they did not have ANY first hand knowledge about what went on there!

It's a damn shame that so many Modern Arnis people stayed home rather than attend the Symposium. Their non-attendance speaks volumes about just how far apart the various factions within the art really are and in all likelihood will remain for some time to come. When the different factions of the IMAF, Marppio and bulk of the WMAA leadership are absent from the event and the WMAA's lead instructor can not get even a single student from his own hometown to attend the Symposium which was being held in his hometown - there can be no doubt that Modern Arnis is an organizationally fractionalized art.

The good news is that the people on the DVD Series are showing us just how beautiful, adaptive and functional Modern Arnis really is. They give us a glimpse into the possiblities that the late Professor Remy Presas forged into the foundations of his art. As an art the only limitations on Modern Arnis are defined by the limitations that each individual player places on him/herself or allows other to place on them. The presenters named above easily and blithfully rose about an self imposed limitations and that is what makes the Symposium DVD Series so valuble. It gives all of us who wish to see some new perspectives on the art, a window into the past that became the future. These people are not looking back, they are looking forward. With all proper recognition, respect and reverence due to Professor Presas, the 2003 Modern Arnis Symposium I, was meant to serve as an acknowledgement of the debt that we owed to the founder, yet it was also held to serve notice that the Modern Arnis is still a vibrant expression of creative self development.

Call George Denson at 1-800-340-9664, order a set of these DVDs and recapture the feeling of what you were part of or if you did not attend, what you missed! Don't be afraid to see what others are doing and how they are building on the foundations first laid down by the late Founder/GM. He was constantly admonishing us all to "make it for yourself!' These people have done just that and they are not finished with their work.

The 2003 International Modern Arnis Symposium I, DVD Series is a must have because We MADE History that weekend in July, at Erie Community College, in Buffalo, NY. The Symposium event has very little likelihood of ever being replicated again in our lifetimes! The fissure lines are that great and the mistrust is that strong! Unless there is a phenomenal change of attitudes among some significant people in leadership positions, the 2003 International Modern Arnis Symposium I, was the first and last of it's kind within the art. I hope that I am wrong, but that is why I stated right from the begining, I stated that I was only doing this system-wide symposium thing ONCE! Now the task, if it is ever undertaken again, will belong to some else!

Therefore and with all that I have stated above, I implore every person who was at the Symposium and everyone who wishes that they had attended, as well as those who are simply interested in Modern Arnis, to contact George Denson and buy your own set of DVDs, because this event is a vital piece of martial arts - Modern Arnis history.

BTW, I would hope that people will copy this post and send it to every Modern Arnis person, bulletin board, discussion list and forum that they know. Get the word out, people, history was made and recorded on July 12 and 13, 2003, at Erie Community College in Buffalo, NY and now everyone can own a piece of it; call George Denson at 1-800-340-9664.

Respectfully,

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.
Paradigm Escrima-Kenpo-Arnis
_________________
DoctorB

 

[bloodwood]

DrB's review of the symposium dvd series isn't much of a review at all, it's more like his version of what's wrong with Modern Arnis. Attitudes like that ARE what's wrong with Modern Arnis. Maybe when he gets the thorn out of his foot he can write a real review.

When someone not associated with all the nonsense that happened at the symposium writes a review, then I'll trust that it's not biased and get a true take on what was presented there.

bloodwood

 

[bloodwood]

Sometimes silence tells the story. The lack of in depth responses about the symposium is a good indicator of this. If you have nothing good to say, say nothing at all.

I am surprised at the response given by Rich Parsons. I have known him on this forum to be fairly easy going and respectful of others. For him to post such a critical response about the venue and the host says quite a bit. As I have said, I believe him to be fair so I have to believe that what he has stated is pretty accurate.

Although he is a moderator on this forum he still has the right to express his thoughts on an event that he attended. I do not believe he has crossed the line of good taste. I think he is just telling it like he saw it. It has been a good while since the symposium so he has had plenty of time not to be annoyed. But he still is, so he must really believe in what he is posting.

bloodwood

 

[bloodwood]

DrB's review of the symposium was posted here on Martial Talk, and that is where I responded. I'm sorry that his review did not cover the presenters. Maybe he will do another that will cover that. I would be happy to check it out.

I don't think it is fair to the presenters to have Rich be the only one outside of DrB's people to give a review because of the underlying issues that happened to him. His review has bias to it because of it. Also if Tim Hartman or Paul were to post a review, the same tendencies would be there. I'm sure much of what Rich has said is true because I don't believe he would be that adamant about it otherwise. If others that attended were to give an in depth review of the event, not only about the presenters but also about the logistics and the overall experience, we all could get a handle on how it went.
Just remember that just because some makes a statement that is negative doesn't make it false. Others can express their findings and those reading them can sort out the facts.

More than one person saying the same thing says something.

I did not attend the symposium so I will rely on those that did to know how it went. So far all I've seen is negative, even from the camp host. How am I supposed to respond when the host posts an angry review?

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by DoxN4cer
I posted this on an ealier thread, but no replies... What's up, did you guys get your videos and haven't watched them yet?

It's been nearly a month since the last post on the Symposium videos, and nobody but Bram has offered up a review. What's up? Are you guys still digesting what's there, or are you still waiting for your copies? I know that George always sends out a quality product. I'm curious to hear what everybody thought about the presentations.

Tim Kashino

Tim,

To be honest, no I have not watched them. For all the stuff that happened behind the scenes did leave a bad taste in my mouth, and I wanted time to go by first before I review it, to be as fair and open minded as possible.

Regards

 

[Rich Parsons]

Well guys I actually bought the Video Tapes, and you may watch it with me.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by Rich Parsons
Tim,

To be honest, no I have not watched them. For all the stuff that happened behind the scenes did leave a bad taste in my mouth, and I wanted time to go by first before I review it, to be as fair and open minded as possible.

Regards

To be fair though to George, I am sure they are of the highest Quality, if they are similar to those produced by George for Bram Frank.

:asian:

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by DoxN4cer
Well here's my two cents... I'll be going in order of appearance: . . .

DVD #5 contains the passing out of the certificates to the instructors. It was a very nice and rather informal presentation with very little distinction made between the instructors. This is a very good represetation of how the entire Symposium was handled. Everyone one was given equal opportunities to show their own version of how they believe that Modern Arnis could be done. It was an open event, and with the exception of Dan Anderson, Tom Bolden, Richard Curren and John Ralston, everyone had three sessions that they taught. It's hard to say that there was a favorite person or version of the art indicated at this event. The chief objective of the Symposium was met - showing the diversity that exists within Modern Arnis.

I highly recommend the material on the videos for anybody who wasn't there or who is curious about Modern Arnis and wants a broader view of the art.

Submitted respectfully,

Tim Kashino


BTW: For those of you who are speculating about my handle:

"Dox" - as in wharf or pier i.e. referring to the Navy
"N4cer" - military police.

Get the picture? Stop assuming.

Tim,

Stop Assuming, I am Assuming anything about you.


My Apologies everyone :soapbox:

Ths instruction that I saw at the camp was fine and I did learn. I amsure the Video's and DVD's are just fine in quality and in production.

Yet, the diveristy within Modern Arnis, was not truly shown. The Diversity of MArtial Arts yes, NOT Modern Arnis. Many of the people on the bill were not there. And do not pretend to think that they all just cancelled at the last moment. Many communicated there intentions weeks if not months before the event. I was not able to see those I wanted to and paid to see. I did see a lot of friends and associates of Jerome Barber, and Paul Janulis added late as well. Kenpo and Taboada Style of Balintawak et al are not Modern Arnis per se.

Yes there were Modern Arnis practitioners there, such as Dan Anderson and Dieter Knuttel, and Tim Hartman, and even Bram Frank, to name many of the highly known names in Modern Arnis. Yet at lunch time, when no time, for lunch, was scheduled Dan, Dieter and Tim were all teaching. this led to many people just to leave and get food during this session. I also saw that many of a certain group would not be on the floor unless their instructor or associated instructor was teaching and then they would participate.

So, Yes, I enjoyed myself most of the time. Yes, I was able to train most of time except for Bram's first session where I left to get something to eat and keep my blood sugar in order. I wanted to make sure I caught Dieter in the next session the normal lunch time. Yes, most of those I saw or trained with had some talent and knowledge. Yet, the symposium was not what I would call a successful event. So, I care not what anyone says, about it. The host and the scheduling and the information flow from the host was atrocious.

So, Tim K. no disrespect to you, yet I paid to see one thing and was given something else wihtout being told. And yes, even three months later I am still upset by this. The lack respect by Jerome and his childish games were something that I will not let be forgotten. Oh, Yes go see these people who taught here. Yes, most definitely go to Dieter's in Germany, yet that is an FMA event not just a Modern Arnis event, or a Modern Arnis event wiht a guest or two instructor. I will not allow the perception the Jerome Barber did even an average job on this event. For you see, I paid the price he asked for and did not get what I was told was there. I also found out her knew about the cancelations way before hand and did not tell people. He stated at the camp that tehy were all last minute during the last couple of days leading up to the camp. He also stated insults, and threats (* some Poised as jokes, yet . . .*), about people there and not there.

Like, I said, see these people for what they are, and train with them. Just realize that Panci Panci and Taboada Style of Balintawak and Kenpo are not Modern Arnis. All of those styles are fine and you can learn a lot, just not a Modern Arnis Symposium in my mind. So, say it was nice to see those teaching. Great! Do not even begin to imply that event it self was a good event and anything like it by Jerome should be held again. I am not pleased with how I was treated before and during and after the event.

I apologize to George the DVD producer, and those reading this thread. My Comments are not negative about his production work or event the work he taped. Buy the tapes or DVD's, you can learn some good stuff. George is an excellant guy. I was short on cash and he gave me four of Bram's DVD's that he produced, and told me to sent him a check when I got home. For his professionalism I have not apprehensions of recomending anything he puts his name too. I am serious, buy his products and see for yourself some good information being taught.


Off my :soapbox: and back to thread


_________________________________________________
Please, just because I am the Moderator of this forum, this does not mean I do not have to follow the rules. If anyone believes I have not followed the rules, then use the Report this Post Button, state your concern and it will be addressed. Or send a PM to Arnisador, Kaith Rustaz, or Cthulhu, and they will address it as well. :asian:
_________________________________________________

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by DoxN4cer
Regarless of Dr. Barber's review and people hurt feelings, there is a good deal of material that many people may find interesting and worth their while to obtain. It seems that this thread has become a "Barber-Bashing" party. Dr. Barber's review of the symposium from another forum is one thing, an honest review of the DVDs is another. While the two subjects are "linked", one has as much to do with each other as much as apples and oranges are similar only in the fact that they are both classified as fruit.

Question Tim, How many of those associated with Jerome Barber who were not treaching were present?

Hurt Feelings? Yes, You could say my feelings are hurt, I was treated like dirt and I am not talking about the extra curricular activities around Norshadow. I paid and expected onething and was delivered something else, and told my Jerome he knew nothing of it. When I found out either the day before, and I was already in Buffalo, or a couple of days before that someone of the people would be not there. So, Yes I have hurt feelings, just not over what you are assuming though.

Originally posted by DoxN4cer
Bloodwood, if you had a problem with Dr. Barber's review why not address it in the forum it came from? Why not just start a forum dedcated to bashing Dr. Barber rather than disrupt positve exchanges here that wouldn't be such a waste of bandwidth?

A new forum for the defamation of a single person is not desired. I post or two of my opinion of how someone handled themselves is fine, in my opinion

Originally posted by DoxN4cer
I asked for an honest review of the the videos, not for your opinion of Dr. Barber. I already know what you opinion of him is, as does everyone else that reads this forum.

Tim, I apologize if my opinion of Jerome Barber upsets you. The only person I feel the same about is Jeff Delaney. Jeff told me I had no rank and had to pay to join his website and to pay him money (* Lots of Money *) to be retested. This was at the Michigan Camp before the untimely death of GM Remy Presas. He was already trying to align people to just him at this point. To be honest at this same Camp. Dr. Randi Schea made a similar statment, yet how it was phrased made all the diference. He commented that everyone would not be testing for a while until everyone we reviewed and their existing rank was true representation of their skills. I respected that, for I have no issues with my skills, nor Dr. Schea's.

So, when people try to put a positive light on either of these two people in a personal realm I give my experiences. Now as I have never trained with either, only watched them work singles with other people I will and cannot comment on their technique.

Originally posted by DoxN4cer
I don't know, are you? Rich, that statement is for everyone who may feel that there something afoot. I just put that out there to clear up any misconceptions as to my user ID. I was contacted privately on a few occasions as to the meaning underneath it.

Tim, I am sorry you received negative questions about your name. I know I never sent you one. Although given the name, and your defense of Jerome I can see where people coudl mistake it. Instead of you just having a military name, and defending an old teacher to try to get everyone to get along.

Trying to get along with most people is also a goal. So, Tim can we both try?

Originally posted by DoxN4cer
No offense taken on my part, Rich. I'm still a little annoyed as well, but I prefer to focus on the positive aspects of the event rather than stew over the things that transpired behind te scenes. I don't fault you for speaking your mind, but it's over.

Tim, as stated above the Norshadow behind the scenes is over. It is the professionalism of information by Jerome Barber. He withheld information about who was teaching. He made comments during the event that I have found himself to contradict in writing on E-Digest since then.

I appriciate you not taking any offense, and I ask you to keep me honest as well.

Originally posted by DoxN4cer
I recomend the DVDs to anyone who wants to see the "art within tour art" fully illustrated on video. It can be said that it was not stricly a MA event. However, regardless of each individual's approach and backround, every instructor (each of which was personally certified by the Professor himself) brought his own flavor to the event. Remember fellas, MA is an eclectic system. To argue the "purity" of the material is irrelavent in light of that fact.

Tim Kashino

Tim, I liked Peter Vargas! He as just not Modern Arnis. He was and is Taboada Style of Balintawak with influence from the American Modern Arnis Alliance with Tom Bolden and his Panci Panci. I did not get a chance to work with Tom Bolden, so no comment, yet I would assume he has something to offer since people do train with him. So when Jerome bradasted this as a Modern Arnis event of all events, and then someone tries to follwo up with a similar statement I try to make it understood it was not. The other organizations either have just their own groups teach or they invite in guest(s) and call then guest them guest instructor(s).



The DVD's/Tapes should be bought. People should see what the instructors offered at this event. If you are looking for someone to do your own DVD's or Tapes then contact George. He also has done Bram Frank's and I have enjoyed them.


Peace and Best Regards
:asian:

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by DoxN4cer
Hmmm, where to start... Let me beigin by saying that I am not an appologist for Dr. Barber. Your opinion, or anyone else's, of Dr. Barber does not up set me. All the the chatter on the forum about him isn't necessary. It seems as though once one person metions his name, everybody jumps on the wagon and commences to name-bashing. Not exactly a classy thing to do, considering that he has been suspended from this forum... really a class act.

Tim, Well it may be bad form to talk bad about someone being suspended. Yet, you yourself and he can contact others to reply, since he has done this before. So, you see I forgot he was suspended since it seem liked he here from time to time.

And As to the Class Act, I believe otherwise.

Originally posted by DoxN4cer
I don't take offense at what you have to say, Rich. Contrary to public opinion, I'm a pretty easy going guy. I just don't understand why people waste their bandwidth and time focusing so much negative energy on a man who is basically out of the equation.

Jerome basically out of the equation. Well he left in 1994, decided to make a play and did not do well. Negative energy, maybe bad, yet it has helped me to find out why I am not happy with his actions. So, expressing it here, has helped me. Yes, a very personal a non-gradiouse aspect of myself.

Tim, I asked you to join. I say your reactions and attitude toward being at the symposium to practice and t teach, and did not transpose anything from Jerome to you.

Originally posted by DoxN4cer
Red Blade saw fit to drag Dr. Barber's review over to MT from another forum, and began the Barber bashing. Dr. Barber was not the focus of this thread. A constructive review of the symposium videos was the focus. I'll bet if I started a thread with nothing else but his name in the text block I would find the same general attitude there would be a number of people seizing the opportunity to sat something negative just because I mentioned his name. Really classy.

Tim, your tone and choice of words, be saying Say Fit and Drag are negative also. The Post by Jerome was negative. Yet, to be honest, I did not read te Jerome post until after my first reply to you. It was your post that made it seem like the symposium event was a complete success. In some ways it was sucessful, in others it was not. Just not a complete sucess.

Yes, if you started a thread with Jerome Barber or Jeff Delaney in Modern Arnis, I personally would have nothing (* good *) to say. I do not insult their organizations or thier students or anyone who trains with or works with them. I just give you my opinion of these people, as I see it.

Originally posted by DoxN4cer
What do you mean "can we both try?" Am I antagonizing anyone? Am I not playing nice? I feel that I'm being rather objective about it all, and everyone else is taking shots at someone who is no longer in the picture.

Tim, you are not antagonizing me. You claim to be neutral. I claim to be nuetral in most instances, and have identified most if nto all of the areas I would not be neutral. As Arnisador, stated I am biased and it is unfair to only have my opinion. I was asking for you to work with me to keep me honest, and I will do the same for you, inthe area such as above where your choice of words seem just as negative.

Originally posted by DoxN4cer
Like I said, I try to focus on the positive occurances from that event. Your choice to focus on the negative is unfortunate and unecessary, but is nice to see that you recommend the videos to the general public as well.

Tim Kashino

Positive occurances from that event. I got to meet Bram Frank and Dieter Knuttle and other people who showed up to train. I was able to see old friends such as Dan Anderson, and Tim Hartman, and Jason Arnold, and Paul.

There were lots of nice people in the attendance, who, I met and as well, those selling products.

Tim, do you know the answer to one of the questions I asked earlier? about people not training, unless certain instructors were on the floor? Send it PM if you want.

Best Regards

 

[Rich Parsons]

Instructors crossed continents and oceans to arrive and teach for nothing.

Students came from more than half across the continent to train.

I was able to meet old friends and make new ones.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by Emptyglass
. . .
As for anyone who thinks that Balintawak as GM Bobby Taboada learned and teaches it wasn't an influence on the way Modern Arnis was developed, if you had seen the Professor and GM Bobby go off into a corner in North Carolina at Irwin Carmichael's school (in '92? '93?) as we trained with Rick Mitchell and we strained to see what was going on while not getting our brains knocked out by ourselves or each other, you might change your mind. I certainly see the connections now.

. . .
Salamat po,

Rich Curren

Rich Curren,

Remy Presas trained first with Moncal, and then Maranga, and then Bacon. Bacon being the Grand Master of Balintawak.

Now, if you told me the two were exchanging old stories about Remy's class mates (* Tabaoda's Instructors, or Instructor to his instructor *), or that they were both reviewing stuff they had learned. I would agree. If you were to tell me that Bobby was showing Remy some of the stuff added in by his lineage, then I would also agree.

Yet to imply, that Taboada Balintawak influenced Modern Arnis in any significant way, I cannot believe. I will believe that Balintawak as it was taught to Remy by his three instructors, including Anciong Bacon, influenced Modern Arnis.

Rich you would have to show me the move that you thought came from the Taboada Balintawak Lineage and that was not or had not already been taught by Remy as Modern Arnis. Now I agree that Remy could not have taught and infinite entries to an infinites reactions, to an infinite applications, yet his "It is the Same" was a good approach to show how it could be applied all over. Rich Curren do you have a specific example of a technique that was added to the MOdern Arnis Curriculum after Remy and Bobby worked together?

No disrespect to Bobby and his art, or to any of his students. I just do not see where this did effect him. Therefor I am asking for examples please.

Thank You for your input
:asian:

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by DoxN4cer
Ah, here we go way off track again. I can't resist though...

Tim K second only to the Kenpo guys the Modern Arnis forum here loves to go off track. So, if anyone wants to have the thread split, let me know.

Originally posted by DoxN4cer
Rich (Parsons), I was there and that was exactly what they were doing. They played with each other, and I recall GM Taboada commenting that "He (The Professor) hasn't forgotten anything".

This is nice to hear. Were you there in 1987 at the Michigan Camp when Rocky and Remy gave an excellant display of sitck work, that was more Balintawak deriviative than Main Stream Modern Arnis? So, I know THE MAN (* Remy Presas *) Had it. And yes I say then and before in 1986, and videos from early 80's of semi sparring that was or is Tapi-Tapi with leg strikes. In 1987, I worked with Dr. Randi Schea at a camp as Remy was teaching the basics of this drill then.

Originally posted by DoxN4cer
Was it GM Taboada's Balintawak that influenced Modern Arnis?

No. However many Modern Arnis people were introduced to GM Taboada in 1992 and began training regularly with him. GM Taboada may not have influenced the Professor's Modern Arnis, but it did have a profound effect on the practice of many Modern Arnis people.

Furthermore, before GM Taboada hit the scene, the Professor hadn't really started the big push of Tapi Tapi being the "end-all/be-all" part of Modern Arnis. I think that this was already in the back of his mind, but working with GM Taboada and other Balintawak exponents appears to have sparked something in him. So you can say that there is atleast "some" influence there, Rich.

Tim, I think that the Modern Arnis Community had matured to a point that he could release more to us. Not to just a few people who had trained more wiht him one on one. So, I can see where the time line here supports your comment, and to say the Taboada Balintawak influenced Tapi-Tapi or more likely the Professor's idea to release or teach more.

Originally posted by DoxN4cer
However, interms of "whose" Balintawak really influenced Modern Arnis... It's all Bacon's Balintawak, whather or not it is now studied in the grouped or ungrouped methods of learning. The principles of the are remain the same regardless of how it is packaged.

To discount the validity of "Taboada Balintawak" being taught at a Modern Arnis event is not only narrow minded, but also discounts the validity of all Balintawak being taught by anyone within the context of any Modern Arnis framework.

It all came from the same source.


Tim Kashino

Rich Parsons, please e-mail me. I have a message for you.

Tim, It all came from the same source.

Why then did different people add or subtract techniques and put their name on it, and stil call it Balintwak? Balintawak does not have any formal empty hands, it is up to teh student to see the translation. Balintawak does not have sinawali's nor other drills, (* Excluding Abecedario 1 -12 *), yet Taboada Balintwak has this and more. I have nothing against Bobby for this. Heck this is what Remy Did. Yet, Remy went with a totally new name to avoid this type of discussion. Because he (Remy) wanted to add in more than just what was in Balintawak and teach it. There is no sin in this.

So, by your reasoning, grouped or ungrouped, is the same. Therefore, Modern Arnis from the 60's and the 70's in the PI is the same as that taught in the 70's and 80's here in USA. Also the same as that taught in Europe in the 80's and 90's. So, if it is all the same then why some many different groups? Why as Rich C pointed out that no one can agree what is Modern Arnis. Yet, when asked, people will say yes this in Balintawak or this is Villasin Balintawak, or Moncal Balintawak, or Maranga Tres Special, or Taboada Balintawak. I can tell you why they have the name difference and can make the distinction. These people changed it, added to it, took away from, and then called it their own. So, how can it be all the same. Similar, YES, the same no.

Thanks
:asian:


PS: Tim K working on e-mailing you.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by DoxN4cer

However, interms of "whose" Balintawak really influenced Modern Arnis... It's all Bacon's Balintawak, whather or not it is now studied in the grouped or ungrouped methods of learning. The principles of the are remain the same regardless of how it is packaged.

Tim, I apologize if I have offended you on this. If the instructors were correct and took what they learned and passed it on, then there would be no difference.

So, I guess you are right.

Originally posted by DoxN4cer
To discount the validity of "Taboada Balintawak" being taught at a Modern Arnis event is not only narrow minded, but also discounts the validity of all Balintawak being taught by anyone within the context of any Modern Arnis framework.

I never discounted the Validity of Bobby Taboada or Toboada's Balintawak. I never discounted it being taught by anyone the system says can teach the art. I never discounted the art being taught side by side with Modern Arnis. My Point was and is, this was supposed to be a Modern Arnis Symposium, billed with the leaders of Modern Arnis, minus those who made a public post that they were not going to be present. To call it a Filipino Martial Arts Symosium would be correct. I would think that it might be considered an insult to call Grand Master's Taboada's Balintawak and Punong Guro Bolden's Pancipanci Eskrima, Modern Arnis.

Like many have said it is not the art, it is the person that makes the difference. I have no disrespect for those who taught, or their lineage or their systems. I just did not wish for it to seem like those in the Modern Arnis Community were trying to use their arts/systems to the Modern Arnis Advantage.

If this has upset you or anyone else, then I apologize. Yet, I was splitting hairs with Jerome Barber, who posted this was to be the greatest and first one and only Modern Arnis Symposium.

Originally posted by DoxN4cer
It all came from the same source.


Tim Kashino

Rich Parsons, please e-mail me. I have a message for you.

It all came from the same source through different branches. Are all the branches in a tree the same? Is Doces Pares the same as Balintawak or San Miguel Eskrima? All of these were taught by those that were students of the Saavedras and the Fencing Club prior to World War II.

Once again no disrespect to anyone from any of these systems, I do believe that you can learn from any of these fine lineages.

:asian: