Oh boy.... okay, kid, you want to play?
Just out of interest Chris, you teach these traditions yourself so what difference is there in your teachings as opposed to the Bujinkan teachings? Specifically, Togakure Ryu? Do you follow the scrolls?
- Takagi Yoshin Ryu
- Kukishinden Ryu
- Gyokko Ryu
- Koto Ryu
- Togakure Ryu
- Shinden Fudo Ryu
See, at this point, I was going to answer you candidly, but instead, I'll just say that the way I now teach and train these arts is very, very different to the way the kata from them is presented in the Bujinkan... mainly as I believe the Bujinkan gets them all wrong (Togakure being the main one that is largely unaffected by my changes). Do I follow the scrolls? A hell of a lot more, and, I would posit, more accurately, than anyone I've ever seen in the Bujinkan...
HI RogueShooter06, I don’t think you are going to get any objective or factual information on the Bujinkan from these forums. Some of the information in the thread is skewed to personal bias and/or ignorance. If you are doing research on the authenticity of the Bujinkan then you will need to do a lot on the lineage of each school to satisfy yourself. The 9 schools of the Bujinkan are
- Takagi Yoshin Ryu
- Kukishinden Ryu
- Gyokko Ryu
- Koto Ryu
- Togakure Ryu
- Shinden Fudo Ryu
- Gikan Ryu
- Gyokushin Gyu
- Kumogakure Ryu
The problem there is that most of the "lineage" and "history" you'll come across for the majority is what is put forth by the Bujinkan (and related, such as the Genbukan, Jinenkan, etc)... so it becomes a loop of faith, as there are major historical issues with the claimed lineages and histories presented.
Maasaki (formerly Youshiaki) Hatsumi became Soke of these 9 schools in 1972 when Takamatsu died.
No, he didn't. He became soke of Togakure Ryu in 1961, and was awarded Menkyo Kaiden in Gyokko Ryu some 6 months later... he was awarded the soke title in most of the others over the next 10 years or so, with some reports stating that he didn't actually get Gikan Ryu, but kinda begged for it, so had it added to his existing scrolls without patterns (which is why, when the school came up in a court case in Japan, it was ruled that Tanemura's claim to soke of Gikan Ryu was upheld, and Hatsumi's wasn't). Additionally, while these were all awarded a few years before Takamatsu passed on, even a couple of years after his passing, Hatsumi was presenting himself as the soke of 8 ryu, not 9... then, one day, he walked into the Bujinkan and announced that he was also soke of Gyokushin Ryu... which brought him to 9 ryu-ha... one coming well after the fact, one incomplete (and ruled against him in a court case), and one (Kumogakure) that hasn't been taught, and is said to be little more than a set of principles... rather than a complete ryu itself. Which takes us down to 6... co-incidentally the ones that are actually used as the basis for the Bujinkan's methods.
As you mentioned there is some dispute over the lineage of these schools. Sean Askew, who spent a decade training with Hatsumi before leaving in 2001 to form his own school, wrote a book call Hidden Lineage of the Ninja Toda Clan which claims to have filled in the blanks in the lineage issues. You will have to read it for yourself and decide for yourself.
Hidden Lineage - The Ninja of the Toda Clan: Sean Askew: 9780578513423: Amazon.com: Books
Hmm... haven't heard of Sean "forming his own school"... as to the book, I'll let Tony talk about what he finds there... I've already commented on my take on Sean's research....
Hidden Lineage - The Ninja of the Toda Clan: Sean Askew: 9780578513423: Amazon.com: Books
On the issue of Stephen Hayes, he was 10 Dan in Togakure Ryu in 1993. Stephen Hayes was the person who brought ninjutsu to the US in the 1980’s. It was not under the umbrella of the Bujinkan but Togakure Ryu. Hayes was removed from the Bujinkan in 2006 and the reasons for that removal is still somewhat blurred. Some say he was expelled others say he left.
Yes, it was under the umbrella of the Bujinkan, Togakure Ryu was the "banner school"... you really should learn the difference between those. As for Hayes' departure, that was an interesting time... he had begun to develop his personal approach, which he referred to as Toshindo (using a slightly inaccurate breakdown of the "nin" character), from around the year 2000 or so... but the bigger issue was apparently his issuing rank certificates in the ryu-ha names without Hatsumi's permission... of course, being the consulate marketing guy that he is, Hayes put on a show of visiting Hatsumi in Japan around 2005... in an attempt to show he was still "in"... not long afterwards, he had separated. The word from Japan at the time was that Hatsumi said "people can call it hamon (expulsion) if they want...", but he wasn't officially expelled... it was made clear, though, that training with him was not considered appropriate for Bujinkan members.
Then we have a man called Wayne L Roy, an Australian who brought Togakure Ryu to Australia. Wayne L Roy went to Japan in 1980’s and trained then came back to Australia and started the first Togakure Ryu school. Suffice to say a lot of **** when down with Roy and in 1999 Hatsumi started collecting votes from foreign Shihan to remove Roy from the (now called) Bujinkan. It was a requirement that all Shihan had personal experiences of Roys actions to be able to vote. Only 3 Shihan voted but despite that Roy is no longer a member of the Bujinkan
We're going back to all of this again, some 20 years after the fact... okay....
No, little had "gone down" in 99. No, there was no collection of signatures for Mr Roy to leave. No, Mr Roy was not removed from the Bujinkan. In 2000, after many years of being run down in the media by former students who had garnered high ranks from Hatsumi, and were using that position to discredit Mr Roy, with no intervention from Japan, Mr Roy requested a show of support in recognition of his accomplishments in establishing the third largest group of schools in the world, and the largest in the Southern Hemisphere. There was none. After another year of silence, he resigned himself and his organisation from the Bujinkan. Why stay where you're not appreciated?
It also should be noted that much of the negative commentary towards Mr Roy were by people who had never had any contact with him, never trained with him, not experienced his schools, and were simply upset at the cardinal sin in the Bujinkan of "empire building"... for some reason, Hatsumi doesn't seem to want anyone other than himself to be successful... the other two bigger groups, by the way, were Hayes' and the Spanish group... and all three were eventually taken apart by Japan sowing dissent between "loyal" Bujinkan members and these "empire builders"... in cases, encouraging them to literally invade the schools... in others, "buying" the loyalties of students who would come to Japan if they left their own teachers in their native countries (we had a brown belt go to Japan, and was offered Shodan on his first night... he refused, as he wasn't there for rank... he was offered Nidan the next class... still said no... was offered Yondan, and the ability to test for Godan to have his own school... he left shaking his head). And, really, if you go to Japan, and all of a sudden, the seniors and headmaster are "recognising" your abilities, and offering you such rank, you must be worth it, right? Who are you to say no? And how good do you feel about yourself then! Surely your teacher will understand! See how it works?
Chris Parker is a student of Wayne L Roy and is not a member of the Bujinkan but has his own school which teaches 6 of those 9 schools mentioned.
The only people who claim to teach the last three are lying or delusional. And, bluntly, no-one in the Bujinkan is really teaching even the first six... only teaching sequences from them. But, yes, I am a former student of Wayne Roy's. However, I don't shout it (as I don't need to), mainly as he retired from teaching traditional martial arts at the end of 2016, and there's no reason to bring him into discussions in an area he's no longer active. What I say rests on me, not him.
As far as "not a member of the Bujinkan", that's presently correct. However, you should also note that I hold a Yondan in the Bujinkan, was a member for nearly a decade when I started, have held a personal membership since 2017, have been given authority to rank my students for Bujinkan rank up to Sandan, have a standing invitation to test for Godan the next time I get back to Japan (the only reason I hold a Yondan is that that was as far as I could rank before taking the Godan test, and had to be Yondan for a year first), as well as the fact that I've kept up-to-date with Bujinkan activity, teachers, themes, and more for this entire time. How much do you really know about what we do? Again, though, an argument can be easily made that there is no Bujinkan anymore... but we'll leave that for the moment.
The other 2 “somewhat educated” posters, one is not a member of the Bujinkan and like never has been and the others credentials is dubious considering he apparently is a member but doesn’t seem to like it much.
Er... what? Did you read what was written?
I guess what I am saying RogueShooter06 is to do your own research and come to your own conclusions on this as you will not get any unbiased advice from these forums on the Bujinkan.
Again... did you read what I wrote?
Nothing I have said is incorrect.
Well, that's incorrect...
I am not complaining about bias, only pointing it out.. That’s why I said to Rogueshooter06 to form his own opinions.
I love hypocrisy, don't you?
Absolutely agree that we are all bias in some way. We all put our own slant on things and no matter how much we talk about it there will always be those that disagree, thats the way of things. The Bujinkan does teach all of those 9 school in varying degrees. Why do you say Sean Askew and Kacem Zhoughari are bias?
The Bujinkan teaches none of the ryu. None of them. It teaches Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, a modern semi-traditional art created by Hatsumi Masaaki, starting in the 1970's, and more fully realised in the late 80's and into the 90's, which uses the technical material from primarily 6 schools, as well as a couple of non-listed ones (Asayama Ichiden Ryu, Bokuden Ryu, Judo), and Hatsumi's personal creativity. Should you wish to argue this, please demonstrate the following: What are the ri-ai and mechanical principles of Kukishin Ryu Bojutsu and Kenpo, and how do they relate? What is the structure and an example of a teaching from Gyokushin Ryu, Kumogakure Ryu, or Gikan Ryu that is found in the Bujinkan's teaching? What are you ranked in as part of the Bujinkan?
As for why anyone would say that Kacem and Sean are biased... well... have you read their work? Both have vested interests in supporting the histories and stories of the schools claimed by their teacher... discrediting him isn't a great career move... as well as their own interest in their own investments (emotionally, physically, time-wise...).
just one more thing you quoted BrendanF
Chris Parker said:
My school was the original Bujinkan school in Australia, beginning in 1981, however we split from the Bujinkan in 2001, and the organisation as an entity was disbanded when my Chief Instructor retired at the end of 2016. I have trained at the Bujinkan Hombu, with classes held by a number of the senior Japanese instructors, Western instructors, and Hatsumi himself, but am not, technically speaking, a member of the Bujinkan itself (there's a whole other conversation as to whether or not there even is a Bujinkan anymore...).
His school was not the original Bujinkan School in Australia. This is not true. His sensei's (Wayne L Roy) school may have been but not his.
You're kidding, right? "My" school (the school I trained and train at, as well as teach now), the school I belong to, the school of Wayne Roy, was the first Bujinkan school in Australia, beginning in Brisbane in 1981, when Wayne Roy returned from his first visit to Japan, where he learnt directly with Nagato Toshiro, including living with him for the first few months upon arriving in Tokyo. The first branch in Melbourne was opened in 1984 after a couple of seminars here and in Sydney, where members travelled to join in, and gained enough rank and experience to open a study group, which became a dojo. I joined 7 years later. Does that help clear it up?
this is Chris Parkers website.
Instruction | Jukuren Dojo Budo Heiho
This is a quote from his website
The instructor at the Jukuren Dojo is Chris Parker. Mr. Parker has been the representative for Mr. Roy’s organization in Melbourne since taking over the school from his instructor in mid-2003.
On the one hand he says he his school.was the original Bujinkan school in Australia, beginning in 1981 but stil from the Bujinkan in 2001
And on the other he says Mr Parker has been a representative ofrm Mr Roys organization in Melbourne since taking over the school from Wayne L Roy in Mid 2003………………………….crickets
Crickets?!?! Dude... what are you going on about? Was I supposed to answer you while you were typing?
Again, are you incapable of following simple rhetoric devices? Mr Roy went to Japan in 1979. He returned to Australia in 1981, and began teaching in Brisbane, as well as travelling around the country presenting seminars, and helping set up study groups to help spread the art (at the direction of Japan, I might add). In 1984, the Melbourne dojo was established, and I joined in 1993. A decade later, I took over teaching when my teacher changed his career, and was unable to continue to maintain the school, at which point I became a student directly under Mr Roy. This is about a 2 and a half years after we left the Bujinkan, becoming Jyukutatsu Dojos. I remained Mr Roy's representative until the end of 2016, when Mr Roy disbanded the organisation, and retired from teaching traditional martial arts. I, in consultation with my students, opted to not bring the group back to the Bujinkan (I rejoined personally for a couple of reasons, but did the dojo did not), instead continuing as a completely independent dojo focusing on continuing Mr Roy's legacy of cutting edge modern self defence training in conjunction with a deeper study of the traditional material and arts (honestly, I was always more interested in that side of things than most of our membership around the country), under the name Jukuren Dojo.
As a result, the school to which I belong, and which my dojo is a direct continuation of, is a part of the original Bujinkan schools in Australia. Does this make sense now?
It was not Bujinkan when it first came to Australia, it was only Togakure Ryu.
Well, that's wrong. Let's see if we can clear up the way the naming structure has developed, and what is actually what, shall we?
As mentioned, Togakure Ryu was the first school that Hatsumi was awarded the soke title for, in 1961 (after training with Takamatsu for about 2 years, for the record). Not long afterwards, he was given full licensing in Gyokko Ryu as well... but wasn't then "soke" of the school. As a result, he would use the title of Togakure Ryu Soke, however what he was training in (and teaching... he was basically running a study group for Takamatsu in Noda) was not necessarily Togakure Ryu itself. It was already a mixture (not a single ryu, nor really a ryu-ha approach) of methods and concepts. By the time Hatsumi established a dojo in the early 70's, he named it the Bujinkan (Hall of the Divine Warrior), ostensibly in honour of Takamatsu himself. Remember that anything with "Kan" in the name is often referring to a specific physical building... such as the Kodokan... or Shotokan, really (it was never a "style" of karate, it was a location where Funakoshi, pen-name "Shoto", taught karate... so it became synonymous with the hall, and Shotokan became the name for the style of karate that Shoto taught at the hall)... making the "banner" art Togakure Ryu taught at the Bujinkan. But, again, that doesn't mean that what was taught was Togakure Ryu...
By the time Hayes came to Japan, he was studying at the Bujinkan Dojo as well. But even then, while Togakure Ryu was used as the catch-all name, most of what he was learning wasn't Togakure Ryu at all. Remember, Togakure Ryu has no strike defence... no kick defence... no blocks... some small kakushi buki... a somewhat unusual sword system... and a lot of non-combative teachings. So, anything with any striking defences, throw defences, kick defences, staff weapons, and so on came from some other system. Four years later, when Mr Roy came to Japan, same thing. In fact, some of his first lessons included hanbo work (Kukishin), and almost no Togakure Ryu at all (in fact, it was his second trip when he saw any actual Togakure Ryu, being taught Santo Tonso no Kata), if anything. So, when he came back to Australia, while the name used was Togakure Ryu, that was just the name on the banner... and, just some insight for you, our first badges said the following: Togakure Ryu Ninjutsu Representing the Bujinkan Dojo... so it was, even just in name, both. But, more importantly, it was never "only Togakure Ryu". Even the first ranks that Hatsumi gave out (to Manaka Fumio, now Unsui) were in Togakure Ryu
and Gyokko Ryu...
The point I am making is that someone who comes from the Wayne L Roy "clan" is likely to be bias against the Bujinkan.
Actually, it's kinda the opposite... people coming from the Bujinkan seem to be biased against us. Except, it seems, people who have actually met or trained with Wayne Roy... it's always the ones who never met him... funny about that... in Japan, I was actually quite enjoying talking about Mr Roy with various practitioners... those who trained with him all had good memories of the experience, shared photos and stories with me... amazing how that happens...
Chris would be well aware of this dynamic. Has he ever mentioned he was a student of Wayne L Roy?
Yep. Lots.
Wayne L Roys name in the Bujinkan is mud and someone who teaches 6 of the 9 schools of the Bujinkan himself, then criticized the Bujinkan for its "authenticity" tells a story
Yeah, it says I'm not beholden to towing a company line... oh, and for the record, my observations are more informed by my study of koryu than in Mr Roy's schools... it's been since he retired that I've altered things to the degree that I have... the various lockdowns over the past two years have also helped, I have to say... provided a lot of introspection and thinking time, as well as the ability to look deeper at what is presented, and how accurate it really is... and, if we're going to talk about someone leaving and then "teach(ing) 6 of the 9 schools", you do realise that the Jinenkan also only teaches those 6? Cause, well, they're the only ones that have ever been presented... so forget about the 9... you've never seen them.
Look, if you're a part of the Bujinkan, and you enjoy it, great! And if you are happy with how it's presented, great! Part of training in an organisation, or in a particular art, is to follow the way things are taught there... I am not in a position where I have to hold to that, so I get the freedom to look at things from a wider perspective... but even in my other arts, what is taught is what I follow... I teach and train in Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu, and there, we know that Musashi was never beaten. I also study Shindo Muso Ryu, and there, we know we're the only school to have beaten Musashi... that's a bit of a thing to get past!
Honest question why does Bujikan always get brought up? I know they sort of shot themselves in the foot with the ninja things and making that their main marketing in the ninja fad phase now that its reversed and become a joke. But if what they say is true, they only have like 2 schools claimed from ninjutsu.
The biggest issue, really, is not so much the credibility of the arts that make up the curriculum, it's the teaching methodology and complete lack of quality control or consistency... the Genbukan and Jinenkan teach much the same arts, but don't suffer as much due to much better quality control. And that, simply, is the truth of the Bujinkan.
(yes i know roughtly how classical japanese arts work with the structuring of many diffrent schools of thing together to make a "art/style", and ninjutsu if it existed would be done like that, hopefully that made sense, im struggling to explain and not using japanese)
Er... no, you don't know "roughly how Classical Japanese arts work" if you think they are achieved by "structuring many different schools of things together to make an art"... that's kinda the exact opposite of the reality there...
Addendum: Basically the last thing i read on this ahd ninjutsu basically be like bushido, its a loos ename given for the ryu a Ninja/Samurai would attend in education to become such.
Leaving off the fact that "bushido" is very much a modern construct, no, that's not really correct either. Ninjutsu, as a skill set, is the skill of espionage and information gathering... it's very much just a part of martial technology, and is present in a number of "samurai" schools. The concept of a "ninjutsu ryu", a school set up pretty much exclusively for this minor part of warfare, is unusual... which is the first place that Togakure Ryu gets into problems... it would usually just be part of the curriculum of a larger school, not one by itself.
And japanese classcialy martiala rts seem to have 1+ schools inside a art.
I don't even know what you mean by that.
Look, an "art", if we're going to separate that from a school (ryu), would then refer to a skill set... such as kenjutsu, or taijutsu/jujutsu, or bojutsu, or sojutsu, and so on. And, while a single ryu may have multiple skills it teaches, it's not a matter of having multiple approaches under one heading... that's not now such things work. What makes it a ryu is that all the various aspects share the same underpinning principles and approaches... a Katori Shinto Ryu practitioner moves the same with a sword, a staff, a naginata, or a spear... but they don't move the same as a Kukishin Ryu practitioner with the same weapons. This is why the Bujinkan teaches Budo Taijutsu... it's not any of the ryu-ha, it's a single, relatively consistent approach, even if that consistency is somewhat inconsistent (being based in the creativity of the practitioners, you're going to get that)... but all techniques, regardless of the ryu they are supposed to be from, will have the practitioner moving the same, with the same basic postural ideas, the same attacking methods, the same blocking and footwork patterns, the same locks and throws, and so on.
So if it did exist, it would be done like that is what i was trying to explain, or in a similiar vein to that as thats how it was done (as far as i know) in japan. God that was really hard to explain without falling into the pitfall of accidnetally saying "i think they exist" or implying that, and undoing my actual view. The fact its japanese as well didnt help matters. Try saying its a school within a school.
Which is, in the main, wrong. So you know, and hopefully, so you don't repeat this misunderstanding again in the future.
That's what you get for basing assumptions on video ;)..same point can be applied to yhe Ed Lomax thread ;) Do you know me? Oh, sorry! Just because i said Ed Lomax hasn´t the best Taijutsu that i´ve ever seen, you assumed that i only know him from videos. Well, sorry, but you´re wrong. And...
www.martialtalk.com
I am an instructor under Sensei Wayne Roy, having joined his organsation in 1993, when we were still part of the Bujinkan (hence my ability to answer your history question... and yes, Stephen, it was Nagato. When Nagato accompanied Hatsumi Sensei out here for the first Australian Tai Kai, he used Sensei Roy as uke for the most part, the first thing Nagato Sensei said to Mr Roy was "Well Roy-san, it's been a long time... now, punch!"). I earned my Shodan while still in the Bujinkan, my later grade after we split. To give an idea, though, as I said in the other thread, Sensei Roy stopped at Rokudan, so Godan is as high as we go under him. I am currently a Sandan.
For more details, see the website in my signature.
Ooh, you found a post from 11 years ago.. and, what do you know, consistency in what I say... what, really, is your point?
Ok, did a search on Wayne L Roy and found this. So Chris Parker joined Wayne L Roy (in his own words) in 1993. Apparently when Wayne L Roy was still part of the Bujinkan…I seem to recall (and I can find it if you like) that Chris Parker said he gained his Shodan from the Bujinkan…..
He was a part, as were all his students, including myself. And, yes, when I was awarded Shodan, we were with the Bujinkan, so my Shodan certificate is from Hatsumi, not Mr Roy. And you hardly need "find it", as, for one thing, it's in the quote you provided directly above, but, more importantly, it in no way contradicts anything I've said. Again, your point is?
So for Chris Parker to have earned his Shodan in the Bujinkan, it would have been sometime in 1996/1997.
1998. March 14th, if you must know. My sister got married exactly one year later to the day, so I joke that she stole my anniversary...
Shortly after that, Wayne L Roy was booted out of the Bujinkan so Chris Parker has not been a member of the Bujinkan for at least 20 years yet having gained Shodan rank, he still purports to be an expert on it.
Oh, kid... no, Wayne Roy was not "booted out of the Bujinkan". We left. And I was not a member of the Bujinkan for approximately 16 years (2001 to 2017), but, as stated, kept in touch and contact with the various goings on... I mean... it's not like you guys are quiet... kinda ironic for a "ninja" organisation...
Tony Dismukes you say And here we come to the problem I referred to above. How exactly is RogueShooter06 supposed to “do his own research?” He can find the info you listed above on Wikipedia. As far as establishing the historical bona fides of the individual lineages, that’s going to be a bit of a challenge. I’m still reading Askew’s book, but he states early on that none of the history of Togakure Ryu was ever written down before Takamatsu - that it was strictly a secret oral tradition before that. (I haven’t gotten to any mentions of the other 5 associated lineages, but I suspect the same will turn out be true of them as well.) How exactly is a non-Japanese, non-historian supposed to “do his own research” to determine the accuracy of this claimed secret oral tradition? This is why I stated in my original post that we will probably never know the full truth regarding the origins of those 6 of the arts contained within the Bujinkan.
so how can Chris Parker be any more enlightened than the rest of us?
Because he knows the topic. And, more importantly, he knows the context.
Some history to the readers on Wayne L Roys colourful background in Australia
This is funny... I was actually reading it today...
Wayne Roy??
TENCHI
unread,
Jun 13, 1999, 5:00:00 PM
to
Why do they want Wayne Roy out of the Bujinkan???
All I could find about him was at the link below???
http://www.tesoma.com/
--
E
unread,
Jun 14, 1999, 5:00:00 PM
to
On Sun, 13 Jun 1999 22:41:31 -0500, TENCHI <
[email protected]>
wrote:
gees a reply to that could be a books worth
I'll give you some
major points, though it is still long.
Obviously I wasn't part of this short conversation 22 years ago, but just for fun, let's correct the comments made here, shall we?
- runs his school very much like a cult. in the eraly days some of his
senior students used to call it the 4th Reich, those of us outside the
school have obviously called it worse.
You know, I've only heard people say that ex-students make this claim... I've never actually heard it from any actual ex-students... nor does the description match anything close to what I experienced in 24 years in the school. Honestly, I have no idea what they're referring to... especially considering where the comments are coming from...
- he then started kicking out his dan ranks for "insubordination" and
training in other styles - no big deal his dojo right, but he told
them that they were also kicked out of the Bujinkan. His cult methods
ensured that most of these people believed him and some even spent
year in therapy.
Again, something I've never seen substantiated. In fact, one of the requirements we had for people aiming for black belt was to train in another system for at least 6 months... I did a year of BJJ, and six months of boxing ("it'll be good for you... they'll hunt your head" was the advice I was given), and we've never kicked anyone out for training in multiple arts. "Insubordination" is a vague accusation, but if valid, is more than enough reason to kick someone out, frankly... I've heard of people being kicked out of classical schools for far less... and seriously? People needed therapy if they thought they were out of the Bujinkan? But we're the cult?
- told people that without a personal letter from him you could not
train in Japan - same as Hayes here.
Again, never seen. In fact, we were encouraged to visit and train if we were going to Japan for any reason... you saw the brown belt story above? We weren't even members of the Bujinkan then, but the student was still told that there was no problem from our end with him training there. I tell my guys the same thing. I was, in fact, told that I needed to go to Japan... so... nope.
- forced his seniors to sign franchise agreements stating that if they
ever left the school that they would never teach martial arts again.
kicked out anybody who did not sign
We have never had a franchise structure or agreement at all. We have had autonomy in all our dealings in our own schools, other than the fact that there was a fee/dues to be paid to Brisbane per student. That was independent of what the instructor chose to charge for the classes, for the record... depending on the rent at the location, and other factors, classes could vary, but the dues didn't. So... nope. That ain't us.
- ran media campaigns against other Bujinkan instructors - including
paid for adverts in martial arts magazines stating that other specific
instructors were not qualified or recognised by the Bujinkan. one
particular instructor tried to encourage people to go to Japan for
training and offered to help them do so in a martial arts magazine and
was subjected to copious amounts of hate mail and also public attack
in the same magazine. Roy then started attacking the Bujinkan in
general when complaining about some twin 19 yearolds in England that
had passed their godan tests - regardless of the fact that they had
trained for over 10 years with Peter King - I have met one of these
boys and his skill is well above the average godan as is normal for
anybody out of Peter's dojo.
Please. I never once saw anything of Wayne Roy running "media campaigns" against other Bujinkan instructors... on the other hand, people like Ed Lomax, Mike Tattoli, and others in Australia certainly did engage in such behaviour. Ed, for example, would make any question in an interview in a publication like Blitz (Australian martial arts magazine) into an attack on Mr Roy... in fact, it was the consistency of these attacks that lead Mr Roy to petition Japan for support... the other instructors had continually made quick trips to Japan to inflate their rank above his, then used that as justification for their attacks... many of whom were originally from our schools, it must be stated.
With the article about the "twin 19 year olds", well, let's be clear... it was one 18 year old kid, so the facts don't seem to be on the side of this "E" (who is likely Ed Lomax, bluntly), but let's continue. The article was entitled "What Has Happened To Ninjutsu?" and was really an open letter to members of the community to be aware of the complete lack of standards, and ludicrous gradings that were going on, warning that the entire ninjutsu community would be a laughing stock soon enough. A shame that people still complain about that article, even though it was quite prophetic... just look at this thread as an example... but I digress. The 18 year old was defended as "a great guy, and he's been training... not teaching, training... with Peter King for a decade!" Except at the time, most 5th Dan in any martial art had been training for at least 25-30 years... so, no matter how much he'd been training with Peter, an 18 year old 5th Dan was just another reason to laugh off the Bujinkan. But, sure, the problem is the person indicating the problem, not the actual issue itself...
- tried to stop the Adelaide Taikai from happening in 1992 (1st Aussie
Taikai)
HA! Nope. In fact, we made up approximately 60% of the attendees.
- ordered 63 dan ranks before this taikai many being sequences for the
same people - Hatsumi told me that it was obvious therefore that he
had no intention of getting legitimate ranks until he heard of the
Taikai. later Roy's rank fees were told to Hatsumi and myself by some
of his ex-students and you can imagine Hatsumi's reaction to finding
out that 3rd dans were $1000
The prices for Dan grades are set by Japan. From memory, a Sandan was around $300. Not sure where the $1000 comes from... but, for the record, while the Japan fee is consistent, the individual teachers are able to charge whatever they want... many do "pad" the fees. I don't remember that ever happening with us.
- snubbed Hatsumi's Shidoshi-kai meeting at said taikai - was seen
entering a restaurant nearby with some friends instead.
Considering how badly organised the Tai Kai was, yeah. He didn't go to that.
- accused me of buying my rank at the time by running the taikai and
then mailed Hatsumi with a request for a higher rank for himself
Yep, this is Ed Lomax. Figured.
Another part of the article mentioned above was the fact that, in organising a Tai Kai, a student could expect a one or two dan grade bump in rank... Ed went from 7th to 8th, off the top of my head... he took that as a personal insult, even though Mr Roy was citing examples from around the world... one practitioner in the US went up 2 Dan grades... someone in Europe went up a dan grade because he sent an instructional video to one of the Japanese seniors...
- upon inviting Charles Daniels and Ed Martin to Australia in early
1993 he told his students to go to that rather than the planned Taikai
in the same year (the last taikai here) - Both Charles and Ed were
unable to convince Roy's students otherwise and if you want more
details on this contact Ed.
The first TaiKai was atrociously organised, so students were invited to attend if they wanted, but were not overly encouraged to (for the first one, it was basically mandatory). Charles Daniel's seminars, on the other hand, as he was brought out specifically by Mr Roy, well, yeah, that was something we wanted our students to get the most out of. Ed, I don't remember coming out for us, although I do remember him coming out then, and again a few years later... but he didn't travel much, and Australia is a big place... but he was mainly doing seminars for (I think) Mike Hammond at the time, and I don't remember being invited....
- boycotted the 1993 Taikai and threatened his students that if they
went he would remove them from his dojo, they were so cult programmed
that even though he has several dojo's in Sydney only two students of
his turned up and they tried to pass themselves off as kung-fu
students.
No, we didn't boycott it, we just figured that, considering how badly the first one was done, it wasn't going to be worth the effort. Having seen the footage from it (and the first one), yeah, I agree. No one was banned from going, it was simply left up to the students... I'm sorry if Ed is upset that we didn't want to go through that again...
- tried to sue me for libel when I made it known before the taikai
that I knew what his intentions were and in the process nearly had his
lawyer dismissed from practice and the case was used as lecture
material by one Australian university for some time.
Not familiar with this at all... suing Ed for libel, well, yeah, I can see that. That said, Mr Roy isn't overly litigious (although he's certainly had reason to be), so I am again going to doubt this. As for it being used for lectures? Yeah... sounds like Ed's penchant for hyperbole and creating his own "facts"...
- has consistently insulted Hatsumi and the Japanese Shihan
Actually, never once did I hear nor see Mr Roy insult them. In fact, you can see him still towing the company line in public until after 2000... not that he didn't have reason... Hatsumi was reportedly calling Wayne "a cancer for ninjutsu" behind his back... something he also did with Hayes... and any number of other supposedly close senior students... he badmouthed Tanemura (his own cousin) when he left... digitally removed Manaka from the old Quest videos when they were re-released on DVD... it's just a part of his "divide and conquer" approach.
- has modified (simplified and mutilated) the Bujinkan arts to the
point where they are only barely recogniseable - Hatsumi is refusing
to recognise the ranks he gives
Hmm... my rank was recognised... my movement was complimented by students and teachers in Japan... the focus on the actual techniques was more accurate than most Bujinkan schools, bluntly, through Mr Roy's research into the scrolls (with help from Charles Daniel, who was considered the foremost Western expert, having "obtained" the densho a few years earlier...). And, back then, we were still part of the Bujinkan... the ranks were Bujinkan ones, so is Ed saying that Hatsumi refused to honour his own ranks? Even considering the lack of quality of his own students?
- has not trained in Japan since 1990 when he turned up for 2 classes
and then took his students on a temple tour of Kyoto etc. heard this
before too eh.
So... the trip where he was awarded Rokudan? That trip was "only two classes"? Is this an indictment of the Bujinkan's ranking system, or perhaps not as accurate as Ed would imply?
- along with many other Australians that had not paid for their ranks
after 4 years or more he was demoted down to his last paid for rank.
What? I have no idea what Ed's going on about here.... I've never heard of the Bujinkan demoting anyone... Mr Roy was never demoted, nor were any of his students... in fact, a number were promoted at the Tai Kai, including the first Melbourne instructor to Godan (who, incidentally, was the only person at the Tai Kai to be able to do a particular throw Hatsumi was showing, as he was the only one who slowed down to actually figure it out), amongst others.
- accused me again of buying ranks by running taikai's here. in fact I
tried to refuse my 8th at the Sydney Taikai but Hatsumi wouldn't allow
me too - anybody that knows me also knows that I was not subtle when
trying to refuse it either.
Didn't he already air this complaint? And, again, the article wasn't about Ed, no matter how much he wanted it to be...
- since the late eighties Hatsumi has had on student after another of
Roys turning up to Japan - most have had to leave his dojo to do so
and have similar stories to tell. Hatsumi has also been unimpressed by
what these people thought was Bujinkan technique and asked Andrw Young
and Mark O'Brien to tour Australia in 1992 to help fix the standard
here.
To be blunt, Hatsumi was saying the same thing about standards from the first Tai Kai onwards... in fact, it was our students who were seen as being much cleaner and having better form than the rest... hence the requests to Mark and Andrew. And the fact that they didn't come to us.
But what has been most noticeable is the culture of distrust and
aggression towards each other here by Roy people to no-Roy people and
ex-Roy people to everybody and it is quite obviously a product of his
cult teachings and methods.
So, Ed's consistent attacks on Mr Roy, his organisation and students, is an "air of distrust and aggression" from Mr Roy's students, and therefore is a product of Mr Roy's teachings? "Those darn hornets, they're so aggressive! All I do is throw rocks at their nest all day, and they try to sting me! They must be exterminated, as they're too naturally aggressive!" Right.
Sure it happens all over the world to an
extent and again I will say that if you want an outsiders view of how
bad it was here ask Ed Martin or Charles Daniels what they gleaned
about it in their 3 weeks here as guests of Roy. Needless to say that
Ed has joined me in voting for Roy's expulsion
Did he now? As mentioned, I don't remember Ed Martin being brought out by us... Charles, yes... and he and Mr Roy remain fast friends to today... remarkable how the person we actually brought out wasn't joining in such an endeavour...
so I guess people can come to their own conclusions on Chris Parkers credentials in the Bujinkan. Shodan is hardly an expert, In the Bujinkan, Shodan is just the beginning
Dude, most 15th Dans are basically beginners in many respects... and, again, for the record, Shodan was earned 23 years ago... but sure, as we left after I got Shodan, and continued my ranking in Mr Roy's school (since also being awarded Yondan in the Bujinkan, for the record), I'm not sure what relevance my grade a quarter century ago has...
Would you care to try again? Or are we done now?
