Punches vs Open hand to face for self defense.

[lklawson]

I think the issue of danger to the hand structure may also be slightly obscured by the fact that some of us DO condition our hands, develop strong wrist muscles, and thus have a better chance of not hurting our hand. I can punch a hard surface pretty hard and generally feel fine, but then, I have a rope-wound wooden buddy sunk four feet deep into bricks in my back yard, so it might be a little unfair to use that as an example.

What many people do not know is that pre-MoQ boxing had something almost identical. They called it a "Wall Pad." Basically a 1 foot square, shallow flat leather "pillow" full of dried beans, affixed to the wall. This was in addition to light and heavy bag work.

IMS, I believe it was Bart Doran who left the best description.

There were also numerous recipes for jow-like applications, most of them now lost to history. A few, however, remain. My favorite is Bob Fitzsimmons' recipe but it is impossible to make now because one ingredient was Laudanum. One old trick was to use salt-brine from pickling solutions (pork, pickles, etc.). Rosin and various tanic acid preparations were also common. These were often referred to by the western term, "lineament." I've used several with varying degrees of success. One that I particularly like is a bruise lineament, allegedly used by George Washington. Simply make a paste from common salt and apple cider vinegar. Apply with a compress over night.

There is SO MUCH martial lore from the west that has been mostly forgotten and fallen so far from common consciousness that many people today deny its existence.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

KSD you mentioned a vertical fist earlier. I don't remember the context. IS the vertical fist safer then a normal fist?

Sometimes called the "Pistol Grip Punch." This was the default way punches were formed pre-MoQ and I've alluded to the training several times, though I admit I didn't mention it specifically. My most specific reference was to Dempsey who, as I wrote, had probably the best/most detailed description of it. However, it is illustrated in pretty much every pre-MoQ and transitional work.

It is absolutely the safest way to punch linearly, particularly without wraps & gloves. It is probably the most important part of what I was writing about when I wrote that one must learn how to punch correctly when doing so bare-fist.

I used to have a bunch of pics uploaded to the forum, which I have posted before. I'll see if I can find them.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

[edit]
Pics.

Dempsey instruction on proper alignment (using a wall to lean against):

 

[lklawson]

I've taken some various types of classes on cranial sacral and tri release therapy as well as energy work and muscle testing. That isn't my main area of expertise but it was of great interest as it involved a great deal of physiology of the body with the muscles and bones. I had an opportunity to discuss various things with massage therapists, chiropractors and doctors of Chinese medicine. My conclusion was that the best way to punch was for the hand to remain in a neutral alignment. As an example, the way your hands hang at your side normally is the way I would punch. This would be more or less a vertical type fist when brought up into a fighting stance. The JAMA also had a very good article on this topic years ago which agreed with the viewpoints expressed by the practitioners and doctors I spoke with i.e. the bones in the forearm align better/stronger with the hand in a neutral position than if for instance the fist is rotated cork-screw fashion.

Did you just agree with me?!?!

The only way I can relate the 'feeling' of the punch is that it allows my entire body to be behind the punch in a piston driving motion that I never felt when I would punch any other way. I feel like I can drive through the target straight into the ground.

This is known as the "Falling Step punch," the "Dropstep punch," or similar names and it was the default way to perform linear punches pre-MoQ. Everyone taught it then and, again, Dempsey wrote the best description of it (the most entertaining anyway). This is another part of the "learn to punch right" training which I referred to earlier and which it seemed you dismissed out of hand.

IMO, it is safer as it aligns my two knuckles in-line with the rest of my arm when punching in this matter. I never feel my wrist unstable or weak and if I had to describe the feeling it is like my forearm, wrist and hand are one unit. Now keep in mind that nothing is perfect and stuff can always happen. But I feel stronger, more in-line and less prone to 'something' happening that when I punched other ways such as a cork-screw punch. The 'vertical' punch as I've described is in the same alignment and the beginning, middle and conclusion of the punch unlike the cork-screw which is changing alignment during its rotation through the punch.

YMMV but that has worked very well for me over the many years I've been punching that way. I think a lot may have to do with how the punch is delivered as well. Just my opinion, but I see a lot of people 'jabbing' the punch. Which can be fine and has it's uses to be sure. The way I do a vertical punch though is more like driving the fist through the person and out his back than a hard 'pop'. So I use it when I'm in a position to deliver it in that fashion. Our lingo is that it causes 'fluid shock' and 'muscular disfunction'. That's a fancy way to say it makes someone go 'poopy-pants'. And it's hard for them to continue an attack when their going 'poopy-pants'.

Try it and see how you like it. If it works then it's yours, if it doesn't then toss it

Damnit! You ARE agreeing with me.

While not 100% identical, this is about 80-90% of the "learn to punch properly when bare-fisted" training I have been trumpeting the whole time. I do wish you would have looked at the books I referenced so you could have known what I was talking about.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Whether you use punches or open hand strikes as your primary means of attacking the head and which one is more powerful is a matter of training and personal preference. The fist will have a greater impact than the palm heel because it is a harder, more compact striking surface. The palm is likely to be less risky, being softer, stronger and involving less joints (if you fell forwards you would be less likely to injure yourself if you stop yourself from hitting the ground with your palms than with your fists).

Those who advocate that the use of fists in a self defence situation is a very bad idea and favor the palms are concerned that using punches will lead to broken hands. This beleif of theirs, although not unfounded, is often overstated. If you want to use punching then you have to do the proper training and conditioning for it.The chances of someone breaking their hands in a self defence situation is not overly high. People who punch to the head in a sport are far more likely to injure their hands than the average martial artist on the street because they do it everyday whist the average martial artist may only have to use it for self defence a few times in their entire life.

The chances of a highly trained martial artist who has good skill, technique and accuracy and have conditioned their fists are far less likely to seriously hurt their hands. However there are some individuals who may not want risk this type of injury, such as police officers, who may need to handle a gun afterwards or a surgeon who needs his hands in tip top condition to operate with. For these individuals the palm strike may be the better option for them. As for what's more natural in fight mode, well that is definitely the fist. If you do some empirical research by looking at fights in real life, YouTube and TV shows like Caught on tape and Wildest police videos you can see that the majority of fights that occur between untrained people involve punching, if palm strikes were more natural then you would see them more often.

As martial artists we tend to use what we are good at and we are good at what we are trained for. Whatever is better for one person is not necessarily better for someone else and trying to convince that someone else that your way is better than what works for them is a futile waste of time and nothing to get upset about.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Kirk, the disagreement wasn't about the way a punch can be used but rather the target location and the risks associated with that target location. Even if we can mitigate the chance of self injury to the hand, it still does not address blood borne pathogen exposure. I place a higher level of concern on these possibilities due to what I've seen over the years. I've seen Deputies win the fight but then have to go through all the testing and medical drama after an exposure. It sucks! It isn't something I'd wish on anyone or for anyone to go through. YMMV

But at least the thread has returned to a friendly chat amoungst martial artists so in the end it is a win-win.

 

[Kframe]

KSD with your Vertical fist, are you using the first two or last three knuckles? From some of those pics, it went either way first two and last three. If you go back to my first post in this topic, I mentioned one thing with using the first two knuckles and a vertical fist with regards to face punching. When aimed at a target that is above your head the higher up it is the more angle on the underside of your wrist there will be. At my max punching height, with a vertical fist, my first two knuckles will be more aligned with the top forearm bone then the bottom one. The hand and arm that are on top(from the top two knuckles on back) will be straight and aligned. The bottom will be very bent how ever. I don't know if that's a problem, because the impact is happening at the top, and I didn't feel any flex or weakness in my wrist. Give it a try and you will see what Im talking about.

If your a tall person, then it makes no difference. Have one of your average students say 5'6 to 5'10 throw those punch's at a focus mit a bout a foot or so above there head and youll see the wrist alignment issue im relating. Im having a hard time describing it, so If its not clear ill try again.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

For us it is the first two knuckles.

 

[Kframe]

What about the angle of the lower wrist? Its quite bent at higher elevations. Of course I forgot as I was typing that, you guys don't punch faces. LOL. Never mind hehe!!

 

[RTKDCMB]

I totally agree with your instructor. It's easy to recognize this by standing facing a wall. Hold out a horizontal fist at your face level or higher against the wall without bending your wrist. As you noted earlier, it will be the finger joints that contact first NOT your knuckles. Slide your horizontal fist down the wall while maintaining proper wrist alignment to where your knuckles now hit comfortably, and you will see that at about your solar plexus level the knuckles finally make contact. Now try this same process with a vertical punch. You will notice that you can now get full contact with the fist at head height. Now try doing some palm strikes against the wall. Not so bad huh? Now try a horizontal fist - ouch right? Now try a vertical fist - much better than then the horizontal fist, but still not as much force or body weight can be transferred into as a palm strike.

Unless your opponent's head is shaped like Kryten from Red Dwarf that is not immediately transferable to the human head, which is basically round. If you extend the exercise with the palm strike with the wrist in the same position as in the horizontal punch you will find that as the palm strike gets lower the contact area of the hand on the wall will become increasingly towards the fingers. When you strike a flat kicking shield, the human chest/abdomen area or a punching bag in this fashion the target will form around the palm which can overextend the fingers and cause wrist pain/injury and that can make them difficult to practice with power.

Kryten

 

[lklawson]

Unless your opponent's head is shaped like Kryten from Red Dwarf that is not immediately transferable to the human head, which is basically round.

It's not about the shape of your target, but the alignment of the hand and wrist bones. The horizontal fist does not give the same support which the "pistol grip" fist does. The use of the wall is just to make it easier for a person to feel the difference by eliminating variables.

Jack Dempsey teaches the same drill in his book and he, most assuredly, punched "non-Kryten" heads, both in gloves and bare fist.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Zero]

It's not about the shape of your target, but the alignment of the hand and wrist bones. The horizontal fist does not give the same support which the "pistol grip" fist does. The use of the wall is just to make it easier for a person to feel the difference by eliminating variables.

Jack Dempsey teaches the same drill in his book and he, most assuredly, punched "non-Kryten" heads, both in gloves and bare fist.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

The “pistol grip” punch as termed in Kirk’s reference materials was the first punch I was shown and drilled on when starting goju ryu; I had never seen this before (certainly not during my TKD times).

I am not sure from Kirk’s images but the alignment I have trained in has the wrist angled and locked downwards, with the striking surface still being the first two large knuckles. The reasoning being that in this position the wrist is locked in a position where it will not buckle or be jolted upwards. In my humble view, this is an even safer application than the pistol grip as discussed. It is still the lateral straight line punch but it is as if you are angling/pointing your “pistol” on a low gradient towards the ground (wish I could draw a picture; can’t find decent picture on the net to download). It also enhances the strike impact of just the two larger knuckles. So if I am punching someone straight on the chin with this, if I were holding a gun, the barrel would be pointing into their throat – to try to explain the angle.

My goju sensei taught me this form of pistol grip punch and he is a LEO (and has been for many years) who also has spent time working the court room cells and holding cells, so I listen up when he talks about tactics and techniques for both the street/SD as he speaks from actual experience. He never warned us off using a punch in SD but we all appreciate there is a risk involved, with damage to wrist of hand/knuckles (greatly reduced with the pistol grip or this “modified” pistol grip punch I am struggling to explain). From my point of view, most people that injure themselves when punching in a street or SD altercation are (i) inexperienced fighters; (ii) sport fighters only used to punching with gloves; (iii) drunk fools fighting sloppy; (iv) drunk fools punching holes in walls.

As for Kang Soo’s question on personal experience, I have used the punch/closed fist in SD in quick succession when confronted with three assailants. I hit very hard, as each one went down, and I suffered no wrist or knuckle/hand injury, or skin cuts. This was before I started goju ryu or even had much experience in boxing and I threw the horizontal/palm facing down fist.

Have you (Kang Soo) thrown punches and suffered injury in SD, be it as LEO or otherwise?

Just as interestingly, have you in your LEO capacity thrown palm strikes to a perp’s face? I’m no cop but thought most physical altercations involving LEOs would be submission, restraint and cuffing. Either that or actual gun work. Are LEO’s actually needing to, or find themselves in positions where they have to, employ face strikes on a regular basis? I would be surprised – but again, am coming at this from an ignorant position as to LEOs.

If your concern is primarily blood getting into cut knuckles, then that I follow (chances of getting blood into you from a palm strike are significantly less, I can appreciate that).

 

[K-man]

The “pistol grip” punch as termed in Kirk’s reference materials was the first punch I was shown and drilled on when starting goju ryu; I had never seen this before (certainly not during my TKD times).

I am not sure from Kirk’s images but the alignment I have trained in has the wrist angled and locked downwards, with the striking surface still being the first two large knuckles. The reasoning being that in this position the wrist is locked in a position where it will not buckle or be jolted upwards. In my humble view, this is an even safer application than the pistol grip as discussed. It is still the lateral straight line punch but it is as if you are angling/pointing your “pistol” on a low gradient towards the ground (wish I could draw a picture; can’t find decent picture on the net to download). It also enhances the strike impact of just the two larger knuckles. So if I am punching someone straight on the chin with this, if I were holding a gun, the barrel would be pointing into their throat – to try to explain the angle.

The vertical fist is used a lot in Ishin Ryu too. In Goju it is often a 'real' pistol grip with the finger on the trigger so to speak. That gives you ippon ken or one knuckle strike which is more used to strike specific points, normally on the torso. The alignment you describe in achieved by keeping the elbow pointing down, one of the principles of Goju.

Here's another perspective on punching.

"Even more basic than the punch is learning how to defend yourself without hurting yourself as
much or more than your opponent did."
http://www.fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=346

:asian:

 

[Koshiki]

What about the angle of the lower wrist? Its quite bent at higher elevations. Of course I forgot as I was typing that, you guys don't punch faces. LOL. Never mind hehe!!

I think many of us DO punch faces, just in specific situations, not as a primary go to, and not as something we teach or advocate in early training. Most of the face punches in my school system come with the opponent on their back on the ground, as a hopeful end to the confrontation, rather than as an opening salvo or the default. When I'm on my feet, my hands are automatically open at head level, unless I really think otherwise. If I have a buddy going down and I have good head control, a face punch comes out if I don't think about it and try to do otherwise. In that situation, I find I am much less likely to miss and hit something less squishy and crunchy and a little more solid.

 

[Zero]

I think many of us DO punch faces, just in specific situations, not as a primary go to, and not as something we teach or advocate in early training. Most of the face punches in my school system come with the opponent on their back on the ground, as a hopeful end to the confrontation, rather than as an opening salvo or the default. When I'm on my feet, my hands are automatically open at head level, unless I really think otherwise. If I have a buddy going down and I have good head control, a face punch comes out if I don't think about it and try to do otherwise. In that situation, I find I am much less likely to miss and hit something less squishy and crunchy and a little more solid.

Really? Since moving from judo and then TKD a long time ago into karate, a high degree of training and sparing work from the start has been on punches to the head, not face in general as such but to the chin and rear of jaw with punches (obviously there are the soft targets for other strike types). In tournament I am always going for the head shot, with gloves it is not so target focused - or rather, with an opponent moving and trying to hit you it is not so easy to be target specific but when you manage to rock a head back or sideways with power you can often get a knock out or lead to a knock down regardless where the punch(s) connects. Don't get me wrong, I am a kicker by trade and love nothing more than ending a fight with a head kick but in a fight in general a lot more times a punch is on rather than a head kick (I don't rule out head kicks for SD/street either, just there is a time and place and you gotta truly know your limitations).

In a SD situation, or street fight/brawl (which I am of the view are better avoided) I see the punch(s) to face/head as a good go to option and often a primary response if physical action is required and weapons are out of the equation for whatever reason.
Out of interest, how in your school are you putting the opponent on their back or to the ground if it is not by a punch to the head? Is it by throw/submission or by a head/torso kick? Do you then go to the ground with them or lower yourself to deliver the head punch when they are on the gound? Personally in a SD environment I would prefer to knock them on their backside with a couple of hard and fast wollops to the kisser and if you need to follow up (to ensure they are immobliised for good if multiple attackers or if they are getting up to do more hurt) do it with a brutal but efficient head/face stomp or football kick that does not require you getting closer to the ground or them and move on to the next guy. KISKIB: Keep it simple, keep it brutal (disclaimer: use of force laws taken into consideration )

 

[Kong Soo Do]

In tournament I am always going for the head shot, with gloves it is not so target focused...

Zero, remember that what you're describing is in a sport venue. And for a school that has a focus on sport training methodology that is fine. In this venue you don't have to be concerned with manipulating something with refined motor skills after a possible injury. And with the protective equipment a blood borne pathogen exposure is more limited than in a street attack.

I am a kicker by trade and love nothing more than ending a fight with a head kick...

When you say 'ending a fight' are you talking about a tournament or a street fight? If it is a street fight, how many have you been in? Who were the people you were fighting?

In a SD situation, or street fight/brawl (which I am of the view are better avoided) I see the punch(s) to face/head as a good go to option and often a primary response if physical action is required and weapons are out of the equation for whatever reason.

What is your level of experience with SD and street fighting? I would submit that in a SD situation, weapons are not out of the equation until well after the incident is over.

Out of interest, how in your school are you putting the opponent on their back or to the ground if it is not by a punch to the head?

Not directed to me, but in our school there are a plethora of ways to end an altercations (as appropriate); chin jab, EOH, elbow strike (all gross motor skills), locking, cavity pressing or tearing the tendon/muscle are some examples.

 

[Zero]

Zero, remember that what you're describing is in a sport venue. And for a school that has a focus on sport training methodology that is fine. In this venue you don't have to be concerned with manipulating something with refined motor skills after a possible injury. And with the protective equipment a blood borne pathogen exposure is more limited than in a street attack.



When you say 'ending a fight' are you talking about a tournament or a street fight? If it is a street fight, how many have you been in? Who were the people you were fighting?



What is your level of experience with SD and street fighting? I would submit that in a SD situation, weapons are not out of the equation until well after the incident is over.



Not directed to me, but in our school there are a plethora of ways to end an altercations (as appropriate); chin jab, EOH, elbow strike (all gross motor skills), locking, cavity pressing or tearing the tendon/muscle are some examples.

Hi Kang Soo! Can you please, if you have the inclination and time, respond instead to my previous post that in part was directed expressly to you - after I described how my particular goju ryu club and members use the pistol grip punch, I set down some comments on my own experience and then some specific questions for you (it's about 4 posts above, sent yesterday). Thanks!

My directly above post to Zack was on a more general level generated out of interest from his comments and a lot was indeed from a sport/tournament sense.

 

[Zero]

Zero, remember that what you're describing is in a sport venue. And for a school that has a focus on sport training methodology that is fine. In this venue you don't have to be concerned with manipulating something with refined motor skills after a possible injury. And with the protective equipment a blood borne pathogen exposure is more limited than in a street attack.

Thanks for commenting Kang Soo but as just posted, my previous post may be more on point for you. I will briefly revert though on these qs from you.
As per my previous response to you, I note your concern with blood exposure and how this is greatly multiplied with a knuckle strike over palm or even knife hand strike in SD without gloves. When I have used punches outside of sanctioned fights I have never tried to manipulate the head and do not see punches as in the refined motor skills category, quite the opposite - maybe misunderstanding you here. I have trained in grabbing onto long hair or scarves to immobilse or trap the head when delivering a punch - this is a v nasty move : )

When you say 'ending a fight' are you talking about a tournament or a street fight? If it is a street fight, how many have you been in? Who were the people you were fighting?

Yes, this was predominantly/soley tournament context. As noted in my previous response to you, one of my sensei is a long standing LEO and also very accomplished tournament fighter - he has great skills but also street reality - and experience in perp apprehension and in cell work and breaking up prisoner fights. He has knocked out a perp by a head kick wearing uniform and boots. he is an execptional athlete and fighter. We train in modified pistol grip punch for non-glove punches for "reality" - street/SD situations.
I have fought for many years and also done well on the national level, have also fought in Europe and had one Japanese invititational - am/was not a bum fighter. When younger, not now, I was not overly phased about being drawn into unsanctioned fights (I have grown up/mellowed/disengaged ego now(ok, trying on the last one and reaonsably successful)) - I have thus had real street fights and been involved in fights at parties and in bars when younger (I am not full of sh1te and yes, have been wooped myself badly on couple of these occassions). At no time have I ever attacked or assaulted anyone without provocation or response to violence, it is just I should have walked away - or avoided situations had I known better. I have used closed fist and - as noted on other threads on MT re SD and "outside of tournament fighting" - used head kicks in at least two instances.
I have apprehended a shop lifter who managed to escape from security guards by doing a piledriver throw and putting on a shoulder lock until security guards caught up.
I have had to defend myself in a genuine SD situation from being jumped by three male assailents, I punched each one in the face with enough force that they all went down - I did not suffer damage, and cannot recall having any cuts either.
I would prefer not to go into too much more detail, this is a public forum and everyone should be aware of what they post and say since the Cody Hall findings/case - social posting is evidence etc (you are a LEO so should appreciate this).

What is your level of experience with SD and street fighting? I would submit that in a SD situation, weapons are not out of the equation until well after the incident is over.

Please see above response, I have had quite a lot of SD training during my goju years and also from a SD trainer/"expert" (I hate the word expert in that context - he makes an additional living out of training security guards, bouncers etc) who was a highly ranked jujitsu practioner who trained at my old goju club - however, I spend most of my time training on a more tournament focus - not responses as such to knife/gun/mugger attack. I am competent at putting on wrist locks/small locks from the jujitsu training and pretty good at throws etc from a judo background. I have had MMA/freestyle fights so am by no means all stand up. My perspective on the street is more of a strike approach, this is what comes natural and this is what I have found effective. As per the shoplifter, in the right environment and without multiple threats, am happy to throw and do submissions. I honestly feel the best way to end a lot of trouble is with a simple punch(s) to the jaw/head and nothing else.
As said, I had the one actual SD situation I was faced with.
I prefer my martial arts training to be focused on fighting other opponents at my level, ie I train to fight experienced other fighters (I still compete but only fun now as finally starting to age (or finally starting to feel am aging) and need to focus on paying bills etc).

Am all for using weapons, have had limited knife training and muck around with a kali friend, but nothing flash at all. Am happy to use any variety of to-hand/improvised weapons. I was talking to Zack on acting where you may not be carrying a gun, or knife or have other weapons, improvised or otherwise to hand.

Not directed to me, but in our school there are a plethora of ways to end an altercations (as appropriate); chin jab, EOH, elbow strike (all gross motor skills), locking, cavity pressing or tearing the tendon/muscle are some examples.

Yes, just was not sure what style Zack is coming from and what he is using to take people down.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Hi Kang Soo! Can you please, if you have the inclination and time, respond instead to my previous post that in part was directed expressly to you

Thank you for pointing this out, I completely missed it.

As for Kang Soo’s question on personal experience, I have used the punch/closed fist in SD in quick succession when confronted with three assailants. I hit very hard, as each one went down, and I suffered no wrist or knuckle/hand injury, or skin cuts. This was before I started goju ryu or even had much experience in boxing and I threw the horizontal/palm facing down fist.

Glad it worked out for you. Then it would be fair to say that you have limited experience then with punches to the head in a real world situation. And that isn't a bad thing at all, no one should really 'want' extensive experience in a street brawl or attack.

Have you (Kang Soo) thrown punches and suffered injury in SD, be it as LEO or otherwise?

Yes. About 16 years ago I delivered a reactionary strike to an EDP attacker that broke my second knuckle. Fortunately a few elbow strikes solved the problem. I was attacked from the side and caught the movement out of the corner of my eye. I wasn't in a position to use another type of defense unfortunately.

Just as interestingly, have you in your LEO capacity thrown palm strikes to a perp’s face? I’m no cop but thought most physical altercations involving LEOs would be submission, restraint and cuffing.

Yes. Chin jabs, elbow strikes and EOH (knife hand) strikes mainly. My personal expertise is in the area of locks and cavity presses. However a strike, either as a distractor or as a main/counter/pre-emptive movement is often necessary to facilitate the lock. I cannot speak definitively on all agencies policies, but at one time head strikes were a 'red' area and only reactionary strikes were authorized. Today head strikes are no longer a red area and are in fact part of CQC systems such as S.P.E.A.R.. But the normal strikes used to these areas are chin jab, elbow strikes or EOH for the reasons I've described previously.

Submission and securing is the goal, but one has to get the bad guy into that position as safely as possible (both the bad guy and the Officer).

If your concern is primarily blood getting into cut knuckles, then that I follow (chances of getting blood into you from a palm strike are significantly less, I can appreciate that).

It is of major concern and often times the MA community overlooks this in training. Bad guys are just that...bad guys. And they often spend or have spent time in a correctional facility and/or a mental health care facility. The incident of exposures in these types of facilities are many times higher than 'normal life'. So the bad guy attacking you...does he have HIV? Hep C? TB? It is a little like playing Russian roulette. He could be carrying nothing but a bad attitude. You could pull off a head punch that puts him down and saves the day. But what if he is carrying something that will alter the course of the rest of your life? I've known people in that position and to say it sucks is a little bit of an understatement that people can't fully appreciate unless they've personally experienced it or know those that have. And safer options fortunately exist in training that are just as effective. Nothing is 100% of course, but I try to load the dice in my favor as much and as often as possible.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Thanks for commenting Kang Soo but as just posted, my previous post may be more on point for you. I will briefly revert though on these qs from you.
As per my previous response to you, I note your concern with blood exposure and how this is greatly multiplied with a knuckle strike over palm or even knife hand strike in SD without gloves. When I have used punches outside of sanctioned fights I have never tried to manipulate the head and do not see punches as in the refined motor skills category, quite the opposite - maybe misunderstanding you here. I have trained in grabbing onto long hair or scarves to immobilse or trap the head when delivering a punch - this is a v nasty move : )



Yes, this was predominantly/soley tournament context. As noted in my previous response to you, one of my sensei is a long standing LEO and also very accomplished tournament fighter - he has great skills but also street reality - and experience in perp apprehension and in cell work and breaking up prisoner fights. He has knocked out a perp by a head kick wearing uniform and boots. he is an execptional athlete and fighter. We train in modified pistol grip punch for non-glove punches for "reality" - street/SD situations.
I have fought for many years and also done well on the national level, have also fought in Europe and had one Japanese invititational - am/was not a bum fighter. When younger, not now, I was not overly phased about being drawn into unsanctioned fights (I have grown up/mellowed/disengaged ego now(ok, trying on the last one and reaonsably successful)) - I have thus had real street fights and been involved in fights at parties and in bars when younger (I am not full of sh1te and yes, have been wooped myself badly on couple of these occassions). At no time have I ever attacked or assaulted anyone without provocation or response to violence, it is just I should have walked away - or avoided situations had I known better. I have used closed fist and - as noted on other threads on MT re SD and "outside of tournament fighting" - used head kicks in at least two instances.
I have apprehended a shop lifter who managed to escape from security guards by doing a piledriver throw and putting on a shoulder lock until security guards caught up.
I have had to defend myself in a genuine SD situation from being jumped by three male assailents, I punched each one in the face with enough force that they all went down - I did not suffer damage, and cannot recall having any cuts either.
I would prefer not to go into too much more detail, this is a public forum and everyone should be aware of what they post and say since the Cody Hall findings/case - social posting is evidence etc (you are a LEO so should appreciate this).




Please see above response, I have had quite a lot of SD training during my goju years and also from a SD trainer/"expert" (I hate the word expert in that context - he makes an additional living out of training security guards, bouncers etc) who was a highly ranked jujitsu practioner who trained at my old goju club - however, I spend most of my time training on a more tournament focus - not responses as such to knife/gun/mugger attack. I am competent at putting on wrist locks/small locks from the jujitsu training and pretty good at throws etc from a judo background. I have had MMA/freestyle fights so am by no means all stand up. My perspective on the street is more of a strike approach, this is what comes natural and this is what I have found effective. As per the shoplifter, in the right environment and without multiple threats, am happy to throw and do submissions. I honestly feel the best way to end a lot of trouble is with a simple punch(s) to the jaw/head and nothing else.
As said, I had the one actual SD situation I was faced with.
I prefer my martial arts training to be focused on fighting other opponents at my level, ie I train to fight experienced other fighters (I still compete but only fun now as finally starting to age (or finally starting to feel am aging) and need to focus on paying bills etc).

Am all for using weapons, have had limited knife training and muck around with a kali friend, but nothing flash at all. Am happy to use any variety of to-hand/improvised weapons. I was talking to Zack on acting where you may not be carrying a gun, or knife or have other weapons, improvised or otherwise to hand.



Yes, just was not sure what style Zack is coming from and what he is using to take people down.

Those are some bold statements.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

When I have used punches outside of sanctioned fights I have never tried to manipulate the head and do not see punches as in the refined motor skills category, quite the opposite - maybe misunderstanding you here.

No, a punch is a gross motor skill. The refined motor skill(s) I'm referring to is the 'what comes next'? In a sport venue you don't really need to worry about it. In a SD, you may. An injured hand can and will effect your manual dexterity to the extent of the injury. And manual dexterity may already be compromised due to adrenaline. For example, manipulate/operate a firearm (LEO or private citizen), load, reload or clear a jam. Use a radio or cell phone to call for help. Something as simple as manipulating small objects like keys to effect an escape. These things may seem simple while we're all healthy, well and calm sitting in front of a computer. But we test people routinely in crisis situations when the adrenaline is flowing and you'd be surprised at how difficult some things become. No add in an injury to compound things. Unfortunately, MA's training rarely addresses what a person may go through in a crisis situation. Hitting and kicking a focus pad is nice. Kata training is great. But unless we address other things the student isn't likely to have an awareness of many SD things. That goes bad to the training methodology.