Promotion stanrdards (Split from Is it disrespectful to ask [...])

[Axiom]

There's no criteria listed for "did the board actually break?"
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It's labelled breaking! What is the Korean translation of breaking in KKW?

 

[Axiom]

As for the stance thing, yes I know the stances in TKD. I'm a technique nerd. I hopefully know something after training 3 times a week for 4 years.

 

[Axiom]

I don't have mind there being an objective of breaking a board, but it doesn't mean the whole grading is a failure if that objective isn't met. For example, the objective for my students could be worded as "Using the correct technique well performed, with good eye control, balance, power control, speed and the correct striking part, while demonstrating good spirit and martial arts attitude, break the board". Breaking the board is only one part of the objective not the only part, so failing to break a piece of wood wouldn't be enough to drop the student's mark below the 60% pass mark.
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If the technique is properly executed, the board will break. I don't understand how you can bypass that fact in a grading. If it doesn't, something is clearly done wrong. That is the student lacks power and/or technique.

 

[Tez3]

You've got to love it when a student tells a respected senior instructor where he's going wrong.

 

[Gnarlie]

I find it more likely that he knows his own shoulders better than a one-time examiner.

I find some students have a terrible lack of self-awareness both in and out of the dojang.

My money's on the instructor (the one with the experience and qualifications in what is being tested) being right.

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[Gerry Seymour]

If the technique is properly executed, the board will break. I don't understand how you can bypass that fact in a grading. If it doesn't, something is clearly done wrong. That is the student lacks power and/or technique.

IF (big if, given we know nothing else) we eliminate the other possible causes of failure (resistant board, bad hold, etc.), that would leave there being something wrong on the student's end. As Andy pointed out, that might not be enough of an error to cause failure of the test.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Belts denote time spent in an art. Second dan entails 2 years spent since first dan. A third dan 3 years from the second dan. etc

It is assumed that this correlates with ability, but that is an oversimplification.

Maybe in your school. Certainly NOT in ours. Handing out black belts as participation awards is one of the cardinal signs of a McDojang.

Perfectionist in class/training and in gradings are two separate things.

No, they are not.

The patterns get progressively harder and no, a beginner can not perform higher pattern movements correctly. I can perform the moves accurately, including aerial kicks. I am therefore by the book, a legit soon to be black belt.

Not when you demonstrate an utter and complete lack of understanding of the principals behind the movements, you're not. Dan rank is more than just being able to mimic movements. Our 1st Dans are expected to display understanding of WHY the movement is taught the way it is. You seem to lack that understanding. You'd fail, in our school, regardless of how long you'd been training.

It can be unreasonably strict as well. There are accounts of Karate gradings in which students fail black tests because of petty details relating to distance between the feet, exact angles, despite having excellent striking techniques. That's just as unfair as the laxed gradings, IMO.

And this is why you'd fail to meet our standards.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Only internationally. We see black belts as experts in the west, but in Korea they're competent beginners. Instructor level begins at 4th Dan in the eyes of the founders.

Your founders. In the eyes of ours, 1st Dan is instructor level.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Have you been living under a rock? TKD black belt standards are infamously laxed.

Some, perhaps. Those at your school, apparently. But this is certainly not universally true.

 

[Dirty Dog]

It doesn't affect people who are legit. Reputations are irrelevant. I had my *** handed to me by a yellow belt Kickboxing champion. A yellow belt!! Wow, belts are really indicative, aren't they?

Stop fixating on belts.

Perhaps their school has some standard for promotion that is a little more demanding than just putting in X amount of time...

You need to memorize the patterns of course, but supposing you do that the belt is yours.

There is an awful lot more to poomsae than memorizing the movements. This is a detail that has clearly slipped past you.

That's not the point. Point is I stuck with it for 5 years and did my best. It's a bit like getting a grade. You pass a test just as much with an E as an A.

Participation awards are worthless. Belts given out simply due to time in rank and equally worthless.

The patterns get progressively harder and no, a beginner can not perform higher pattern movements correctly. I can perform the moves accurately, including aerial kicks. I am therefore by the book, a legit soon to be black belt.

A beginner may very well perform movements from higher patterns correctly. The difference between them and someone who has earned promotion is their understanding of the principals behind the movement.

 

[TrueJim]

Once I started learning "sports poomsae" (for example, to help our team prepare to compete in Nationals) I had the same reaction as Master Chuang at the 2 minute mark of this video:

There is so much to know. Even just to perform the Taegeuk properly in a "sports" style at the National level -- holy cow. The debates I've seen about what's the "right" way to transition from one stance to another -- wow this stuff gets deep fast. But when people are doing it the "right" way (and I mean in a "sports" definition of "right") -- wow does it look good.

There's a lot more to poomsae than just knowing the movements -- a lot more. Even leaving "applications" aside, just sticking to the nuances of the movements themselves -- there's a lot to know.

 

[Headhunter]

I would have said that the year before I finished testing for mine. I knew the tests, and knew I'd be able to pass them all. It wasn't a matter of "no matter what" - I just knew my own capabilities and the requirements that had been set. If something changed (I was injured, requirements changed, etc.), then my answer might have changed.

Yeah but look at the thread he doesn't know it because of his ability he knows it because everyone who does 5 years is guaranteed a black belt no matter how bad their skills are

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yeah but look at the thread he doesn't know it because of his ability he knows it because everyone who does 5 years is guaranteed a black belt no matter how bad their skills are

My response wasn't to him having said it, but to the comment that you hate it when people say that they will get their belt.

 

[Gnarlie]

Once I started learning "sports poomsae" (for example, to help our team prepare to compete in Nationals) I had the same reaction as Master Chuang at the 2 minute mark of this video:

There is so much to know. Even just to perform the Taegeuk properly in a "sports" style at the National level -- holy cow. The debates I've seen about what's the "right" way to transition from one stance to another -- wow this stuff gets deep fast. But when people are doing it the "right" way (and I mean in a "sports" definition of "right") -- wow does it look good.

There's a lot more to poomsae than just knowing the movements -- a lot more. Even leaving "applications" aside, just sticking to the nuances of the movements themselves -- there's a lot to know.

This reflects my experience too. The shift in focus towards sports definitions in poomsae and demonstration level techniques in recent years has made the sport much more demanding even at the grass roots level. It's also made those who seek out the source of information stand out from the crowd. I look forward to seeing how the new wave of SD and application focus develops.

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[TrueJim]

It's also made those who seek out the source of information stand out from the crowd...

My experience has been that there's a lot of "hard to find" information in sports poomsae. For example in the US, the national-level judges interpret the Low Cross Block as an Augmented Low Block, meaning the blocking arm is over the knee (not centered) and it's turned downward (not inward). As near as I can tell, information like this isn't written down anywhere...it's folklore that you can learn only by talking to people who are "in the know" -- judges, coaches, elite athletes, etc. I find the folklore aspect of elite competition a bit disconcerting.

 

[JR 137]

This "split" thread has gone so many way, I don't know if what I'm about to say is relevant, but here goes...

@Axiom
Is the time in grade a minimum? Or just a set in stone "you'll promote every X months/years (years at dan level)?

What if someone gets promoted, shows up for a week, then doesn't train for 5 months, and comes back for a week; will he/she automatically promote because he/she's been whatever colored belt for the 6 month period? Assuming the student has paid tuition for the full duration, of course. And testing fees.

My school has minimum time in grade policies. But they're usually minimum. I say usually, because someone with prior experience can promote sooner at the CI's discretion.

But the "time in grade" isn't specifically number of days, months, etc.; it's number of classes, and the timeframe is an average. So from 3rd kyu to 2nd kyu, the minimum is 60 classes/6 months; from 2nd kyu-1st kyu is 80 classes/8 months; 2nd - 1st is 100 classes/12 months.

Those are MINIMUMS. And the classes attended need to be consistent. And there's no guarantee whatsoever that you'll test once you have enough time/classes.

There's a guy who "trains" at our dojo. Great guy. Not a bad karateka at all either. But he comes for a week or so, leaves for 7-8 months, comes back for a few days, repeat. He's been a 3rd kyu since I've been there, going on 3 years. Last time he was there, he was joking around with my teacher (in a good way) that he's been a 3rd kyu for going on 7 years. Apparently he was very consistent for a few years, left at one grade, returned at the same rank a year later, was consistent for another 2 years, then started his current training pattern. If there was no minimum class amount and consistency in time in grade, he'd be at about 4th dan now if he showed up on the right days and was passed for showing up.

Edit: Minimum time in grade and classes attended is for kyu grades. Dan grades don't count their classes, but they've got minimum time in grade and consistency in training requirements. And minimum time in grad is HIGHLY optimistic; very, very few black belts promote right after the minimum. I'd say they average a little over a year past the minimum before my CI even starts to think about recommending them for promotion, and even longer than that when they're nearing 4th dan and up.

 

[Axiom]

Maybe in your school. Certainly NOT in ours. Handing out black belts as participation awards is one of the cardinal signs of a McDojang.



No, they are not.



Not when you demonstrate an utter and complete lack of understanding of the principals behind the movements, you're not. Dan rank is more than just being able to mimic movements. Our 1st Dans are expected to display understanding of WHY the movement is taught the way it is. You seem to lack that understanding. You'd fail, in our school, regardless of how long you'd been training.



And this is why you'd fail to meet our standards.

Why do you attack me? I'm just the messenger of the status quo. I've got nothing to do with it. Attack the instructor instead if you got a problem with it.

 

[Tez3]

status quo.

My OH loves them, plays in the car when on his own!

 

[Tez3]

Why do you attack me? I'm just the messenger of the status quo. I've got nothing to do with it. Attack the instructor instead if you got a problem with it.

Actually you are a lot to do with it. If it is a participation award you are complicit in that sham because you don't walk away and find a place where you have to work for your belt.

 

[Axiom]

Some, perhaps. Those at your school, apparently. But this is certainly not universally true.

Yeah well that school is a run by master higher ranked than you (9th dan), the president of ITF in my country, and technical advisor to the national team ( selected by General Choi, mind you),so if that's a Mcdojo, God help the rest of them.