Promotion stanrdards (Split from Is it disrespectful to ask [...])

[Axiom]

Being slack isn't a good thing when it comes to gradings, it means you are rubbish basically. A slack person or someone doing a slack job is not good.

It doesn't need to be black or white. A student can be dedicated to one aspect of Karate and a lazy in another. I would view it from the full picture. As long as the kata display isn't way off the mark and techniques are executed accurately, I would pass the student.

 

[Tez3]

You claimed that that it was a misuse of the word and that lax was the word I was looking for. You were wrong.

No, 'Laxed' is a verb, you used it as adjective where it doesn't make sense.

 

[Tez3]

It doesn't need to be black or white. A student can be dedicated to one aspect of Karate and a lazy in another. I would view it from the full picture. As long as the kata display isn't way off the mark and techniques are executed accurately, I would pass the student.

Luckily for students you aren't the examiner. When you train martial arts you should be equally dedicated in all areas because all areas are connected.

 

[Tez3]

The bunkai is executed in the exact same stances as in the katas... Those stances are not likely to be implemented during a live confrontation. Thus the applicability of katas may only extend to the actually strikes, not the stances. So to fail a student based on stances or exact posture of the upper body is unwarranted from a self defence perspective. Shotokan is marketed as a self defence, and gradings should take into account not just the kata.

Oh dear. I think 'discipline' isn't high on your list on qualities a martial artist should have. So we have you passing lazy students, students who can't be bothered to use correct techniques, those who don't understand what katas are and can do for you, students who only put the time in not the effort so tell me, why should anyone actually bother learning a martial arts? why not just watch a few videos and buy yourself a black belt?

There is a very good podcast on this link to help you understand kata and Bunkai. I'm not going to start a discussion on Bunkai or kata but before you start telling us more of your thoughts please listen to an expert.
Q and A Podcast Part 1: Self-defence and Bunkai Questions | Iain Abernethy

 

[Axiom]

No, 'Laxed' is a verb, you used it as adjective.

That's being picky. I still used the right word and the meaning came across perfectly well. I stand by the word .. I prefer those types of gradings to strict ones. People have lives outside the dojo and if I a person is very capable in executing the techniques, it should be taken into concideration. A highly skilled kumite student can thus overcome a slightly off kata in the gradings, and vice versa.

Luckily for students you aren't the examiner. When you train martial arts you should be equally dedicated in all areas because all areas are connected.

Hence my statment: "As long as the katas arent way off the mark, the student should be passed". I wouldn't pass a student who fails all criterias of performing a kata. That goes without saying.

 

[Tez3]

Part Two. Q and A Podcast Part 2: Karate and Training | Iain Abernethy

 

[Tez3]

That's being picky. I still used the right word and the meaning came across perfectly well. I stand by the word .. I prefer those types of gradings to strict ones. People have lives outside the dojo and if I a person is very capable in executing the techniques, it should be taken into concideration. A highly skilled kumite student can thus overcome a slightly off kata in the gradings.



Hence my statment: "As long as the katas arent way off the mark, the student should be passed". I wouldn't pass a student who fails all criterias of performing a kata. That goes without saying.

What a load of bollocks. I do understand you prefer shoddy gradings to strict ones, and that because you consider yourself good at sparring you naturally assume you are better than others therefore you must pass your grading...which is in TKD not the Shotokan you keep deriding!

Why are you still discussing your perceived failings of Shotokan when you don't train it? You know that is style bashing and against the rules here? You started a thread on 'old style' TKD which you think you want to learn ( because your instructor is keeping things from you) why not concentrate on what you are training NOW and stop slagging off other styles?

 

[Axiom]

What a load of bollocks. I do understand you prefer shoddy gradings to strict ones, and that because you consider yourself good at sparring you naturally assume you are better than others therefore you must pass your grading...which is in TKD not the Shotokan you keep deriding!

Why are you still discussing your perceived failings of Shotokan when you don't train it? You know that is style bashing and against the rules here? You started a thread on 'old style' TKD which you think you want to learn ( because your instructor is keeping things from you) why not concentrate on what you are training NOW and stop slagging off other styles?

It's not style bashing to criticize a curriculum. as long as the actual content of the curriculum is not adressed. My contention is that it's very improbable that people would apply stances from katas in live action, so the emphasis should be on other parts of the kata when grading the individual, if the style is marketed as a self defence.

An instructor can focus on whatever he/she chooses in everyday class and the student can take it or leave it, but that's separate from the actual gradings.

Style bashing would be: "Shotokan striking techniques don't work".

 

[Tez3]

It's not style bashing to criticize a curriculum. as long as the actual content of the curriculum is not adressed. My contention is that it's very improbable that people would apply stances from katas in live action, so the emphasis should be on other parts of the kata when grading the individual, if the style is marketed as a self defence.

An instructor can focus on whatever he/she chooses in everyday class and the student can take it or leave it, but that's separate from the actual gradings.

Style bashing would be: "Shotokan striking techniques don't work".

No, really, you should stop now, many of your comments on Shotokan are style bashing, re-read them.

Your comments on kata, stances etc are ill informed. Do you know all stances in all katas, do you know there are 'natural' stances that are used in sparring? How many stances do you know? Do you understand anything about the discipline used in martial arts that mean you strive to do all techniques well not just the ones you like, think will work or you can do? You think it's fine to do things sloppily because you don't think you need to do them well? You don't care about focus, awareness or the importance of doing something to the best of your ability? Do you understand any of the wider points of training martial arts? People don't just do them to spar or fight, there's a lot of reasons. Perhaps this will speak to you more? Martial Arts are More than Fighting -

 

[TrueJim]

I would take lax gradings over rigid ones, and pass students who are gifted but lazy, rather than fail talented people who don't position their foot exactly 25 degrees...

Gifted but Lazy vs. Less Talented but Hard Working

I have to say, I don't think I could disagree with this more.

In my opinion, grading is largely about the extent to which somebody is achieving their potential through hard work. When it comes to testing, at our school we don't expect a 60 year old man to spar as well as a 20 year old athlete -- instead, we're asking ourselves, "Did this 60-year-old man's hard work result in a guy who spars really well for his age?" If we saw a lazy 20 year old athlete who was only sparring slightly better than that 60 year old man, we'd fail the young athlete and pass the older guy.

We have a fair number of older students (50+), a lot of younger students (10 and under), a number of disabled students (blind students, Down syndrome students, etc.) and the usual cadre of 20-40-year old fit men who rattle your teeth when you spar against them. Our judges are testing these people not against an absolute standard, but against their potential -- and lazy students never EVER pass.

At our school, belts are definitely not a measure of how gifted you are.

 

[Tez3]

This is the curriculum for the KUGB, this organisation has many of the best karate fighters in the world as instructors. they are also some of the finest all round karateka and instructors. I suggest you contact them and tell them where they are going wrong, seriously I mean it. as for this thread, I'm done with you, you are like a wilful child who is determined to slag off another style without providing any proof of your allegations. No style or instructor is perfect but you need to stop the pointless comments about Shotokan.
KUGB Shotokan Karate Grading Rules & Syllabus for Kyu & Dan Grades

 

[Axiom]

Gifted but Lazy vs. Less Talented but Hard Working

I have to say, I don't think I could disagree with this more.

In my opinion, grading is largely about the extent to which somebody is achieving their potential through hard work. When it comes to testing, at our school we don't expect a 60 year old man to spar as well as a 20 year old athlete -- instead, we're asking ourselves, "Did this 60-year-old man's hard work result in a guy who spars really well for his age?" If we saw a lazy 20 year old athlete who was only sparring slightly better than that 60 year old man, we'd fail the young athlete and pass the older guy.

We have a fair number of older students (50+), a lot of younger students (10 and under), a number of disabled students (blind students, Down syndrome students, etc.) and the usual cadre of 20-40-year old fit men who rattle your teeth when you spar against them. Our judges are testing these people not against an absolute standard, but against their potential -- and lazy students never EVER pass.

At our school, belts are definitely not a measure of how gifted you are.

It's all relative. My standard is soft compared to the examiner who (incorrectly) failed a student because of his shoulders, but that doesn't mean that I advocate sloppy forms.

 

[Tez3]

Gifted but Lazy vs. Less Talented but Hard Working

I have to say, I don't think I could disagree with this more.

In my opinion, grading is largely about the extent to which somebody is achieving their potential through hard work. When it comes to testing, at our school we don't expect a 60 year old man to spar as well as a 20 year old athlete -- instead, we're asking ourselves, "Did this 60-year-old man's hard work result in a guy who spars really well for his age?" If we saw a lazy 20 year old athlete who was only sparring slightly better than that 60 year old man, we'd fail the young athlete and pass the older guy.

We have a fair number of older students (50+), a lot of younger students (10 and under), a number of disabled students (blind students, Down syndrome students, etc.) and the usual cadre of 20-40-year old fit men who rattle your teeth when you spar against them. Our judges are testing these people not against an absolute standard, but against their potential -- and lazy students never EVER pass.

At our school, belts are definitely not a measure of how gifted you are.

Your place sounds a great place to train! I imagine all your students get a real sense of achievement when they've passed their gradings, a sense of self worth and confidence as well which is so important for many people.

 

[Axiom]

I do stand by that if I have to pick the lesser of two evils, I would opt for the lax gradings, simply because promising students will always make the cut no matter what, but not neccesarily in the super strict ones, and this might result in them leaving.

 

[Tez3]

I do stand by that if I have to pick the lesser of two evils, I would opt for the lax gradings, simply because promising students will always make the cut no matter what, but not neccesarily in the super strict ones, and this might result in them leaving.

Given the etymology of the word 'lax' I think I can safely say that what you write here is BS.

lax | Definition of lax in English by Oxford Dictionaries

1Not sufficiently strict, severe, or careful.
‘lax security arrangements at the airport’

‘he'd been a bit lax about discipline in school lately’

• ‘A review of electronic security inside commonwealth agencies has reportedly uncovered a culture of theft and lax security inside the public service.’
• ‘Caring does not mean you are soft and lax on standards.’
• ‘Today, a year later, airport security is as lax as ever.’
• ‘The punishment must fit the crime, neither too lax nor too severe.’
• ‘The source says against this background of lack controls, especially lax internal controls, it is easy to see how a fraud of this type could arise and not be detected for so long.’
• ‘The person who lives here has been exceptionally lax about security.’
• ‘We can't have it both ways - we can't be concerned about terrorism when security is lax but whinge about scaremongering when steps are taken to deal with the threat.’
• ‘The campaign has targeted allegedly lax regional and local governments.’
• ‘This strikes me as a pretty lax approach to national security.’
• ‘There has been lax security on internal US flights.’
• ‘But research shows that the standards remain too lax - and mercury continues to be unregulated.’
• ‘Most students who graduate enjoy the two years of creative freedom, lax discipline and reasonable workload.’
• ‘Despite continuing lax enforcement, concern rose at the end of the century, in response to a perceived increase in the consumption of whisky.’
• ‘Overcrowding and lax security were blamed for the escape.’
• ‘Those two sides have plenty of time to interact due to the ludicrously lax security arrangements.’
• ‘Many social problems stem from lax enforcement of strict legal code.’
• ‘Indeed, she seems not to recognize that state-sponsored inequalities foment terror far more effectively than lax banking laws.’
• ‘Evidence of lax security is indisputable, however.’
• ‘He told police that security there was so lax others had already successfully targeted it before him.’
• ‘Delay, impractical documentary formalities, lax enforcement, continuing widespread visibility of piracy and the export of pirated goods remain concerns.’

slack, slipshod, negligent, neglectful, remiss, careless, heedless, unmindful, inattentive, slapdash, offhand, casual
View synonyms

• 
  
  
  1. 2.1 (of the bowels) loose.
     
     • ‘The unfortunate offset was that the hydronically excited children became rather lax in the bladder department, and messy assisted toilet trips were required.’
  2. 2.2Phonetics (of a speech sound, especially a vowel) pronounced with the vocal muscles relaxed.
     ‘the merger of tense and lax vowels before ‘l’’
     The opposite of tense
     • ‘In view of the time required to move to more peripheral vowel positions, tense vowels tend to be peripheral and lax vowels closer to schwa, the neutral or central vowel.’

Origin
Late Middle English (in the sense ‘loose’, said of the bowels): from Latin laxus.

 

[TrueJim]

My standard is soft compared to the examiner who (incorrectly) failed a student because of his shoulders...

To be fair, you're only conjecturing that the failure was incorrectly given. Posing in front of a mirror might give a person a useful data point, but for all you know the shoulders actually WERE stiff, and the photograph just didn't do a good job of explaining that.

To your original point, the examiner is a trained examiner with a lot of experience. He knows what he's looking for, across lots of different body types. He's seen lots of students with narrow shoulders, broad shoulders, and everything in between. Which scenario seems more likely: that he's wrong, despite his years of experience, or that the shoulders really were stiff?

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

Given the etymology of the word 'lax' I think I can safely say that what you write here is BS.

Good thing he didn't use the word "good".

 

[Axiom]

To be fair, you're only conjecturing that the failure was incorrectly given. Posing in front of a mirror might give a person a useful data point, but for all you know the shoulders actually WERE stiff, and the photograph just didn't do a good job of explaining that.

To your original point, the examiner is a trained examiner with a lot of experience. He knows what he's looking for, across lots of different body types. He's seen lots of students with narrow shoulders, broad shoulders, and everything in between. Which scenario seems more likely: that he's wrong, despite his years of experience, or that the shoulders really were stiff?

I find it more likely that he knows his own shoulders better than a one-time examiner.

 

[andyjeffries]

Aren't you affiliated with the KKW? The conditions clearly state the objective is to break the board.

I am affiliated with the Kukkiwon, I'm a KMS member, certified Poom/Dan Examiner and certified 2nd Class Master Instructor.

The Kukkiwon regulations don't state that. Under Article 12, Section 2 for Kyukpa it says the scoring criteria is:

• Eye Control
• Balance
• Power Control
• Speed
• Part of Attack

"World Culture Taekwondo! Kukkiwon will make it"

There's no criteria listed for "did the board actually break?"

When I did the Kukkiwon Poom/Dan Examiner course in 2015, the lecturer did say that if during a grading a board didn't break then the entire test should be a failure. There was literally uproar in the room, with I would say a good 80% of the 150 attendees disagreed with it and we made it known to the examiner. We asked him to tell us where this was stated in the regulations and he said he could not, but that's how he judged candidates (so maybe it was just his personal opinion). He also then said (paraphrasing) that as masters and representatives of the Kukkiwon we trust your judgement in determining how to pass candidates on this.

I had an ex-Member of the Kukkiwon Demonstration Team over in July to stay with us. He put on a few demos and didn't manage to break 100% of the boards. Should he have failed a dan grading? Because in every area (including kyukpa) he is EXCEPTIONAL! Sometimes though the board just doesn't break (maybe a damp board, maybe the holders didn't hold it firmly, maybe the kicker has a slight injury that day).

 

[andyjeffries]

Huh? No use putting forward a board if the objective isn't to break it. Might as well have the student hit a mitts or something else then.

I don't have mind there being an objective of breaking a board, but it doesn't mean the whole grading is a failure if that objective isn't met. For example, the objective for my students could be worded as "Using the correct technique well performed, with good eye control, balance, power control, speed and the correct striking part, while demonstrating good spirit and martial arts attitude, break the board". Breaking the board is only one part of the objective not the only part, so failing to break a piece of wood wouldn't be enough to drop the student's mark below the 60% pass mark.

That being said, the problem I just raised in Shotokan is rarely prevalent in TKD gradings based on my experience, and that is a positive. Would you agree?

I didn't see the problem raised about Shotokan, but if you're talking about the shoulder position or individuality expressed in kata, then I would say that the former is a problem (if it's genuinely down to the person's build, not just tension) and the later should not be allowed.

I'm a stickler for accuracy though, if I don't know a detail about poomsae, then I'll ask someone higher than me (if necessary going all the way to the Kwanjangnim of Changmookwan, or a senior examiner/instructor at Kukkiwon). Once I know that detail then I'll try to teach it and later judge my students on if they know it. I don't think poomsae is a vehicle in Kukkiwon Taekwondo for practitioners to express individuality. Sparring is there for that, poomsae is about understanding how power is developed in Taekwondo movements and learning to follow strict standards well, so you can pass them on to future generations.