Promotion stanrdards (Split from Is it disrespectful to ask [...])

[JR 137]

I know that I deserve it since I can do the moves required. The standards being non existent in my club to get it doesn't affect me. If I couldn't perform moves better than a complete amateur, and showed no progress from 5 years ago ,I wouldn't feel it's worthwile, but now I think it is.

That's what it's really all about. Just remember the issues you addressed are minor annoyances, and you'll do fine.

 

[Steve]

Personally, I think all tests and ranking should be eliminated. Anybody who needs a colored piece of cloth to motivate their training has a shallow commitment to the arts and doesn't deserve it anyway. I'm glad to be training a system that does not promote that way. Belts are silly.

There are appropriate and useful purposes for ranks other than the negative ones you ascribe. for a guy who has vehemently argued that people train for many reasons, you're being strangely judgemental.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Personally, I think all tests and ranking should be eliminated. Anybody who needs a colored piece of cloth to motivate their training has a shallow commitment to the arts and doesn't deserve it anyway. I'm glad to be training a system that does not promote that way. Belts are silly.

What's actually silly about testing? Because a belt is just an indicator of what testing or evaluation a person has succeeded at. Very few people I know were often motivated by the belt (often when reaching for BB, but rarely, otherwise). The belt serves its purpose within the school and association. It's not necessary, but useful. Why is that silly?

 

[RTKDCMB]

‘lax security arrangements at the airport’

I wonder if the Los Angeles International Airport had LAX security?

 

[RTKDCMB]

Personally, I think all tests and ranking should be eliminated. Anybody who needs a colored piece of cloth to motivate their training has a shallow commitment to the arts and doesn't deserve it anyway. I'm glad to be training a system that does not promote that way. Belts are silly.

That way might be a bit difficult in practice when you are part of a large organization with 20 or more schools in the area and 10 -30 students per class. Belts make it easier to tell which student is at what level of training.

 

[drop bear]

A lot of goals are pretty transient and superficial though. Say I climb Everest. In reality so what?

But I would still hang the photo of that on my wall. And appreciate that I did it.

If Everest had an elevator. Then the photo wouldn't matter so much.

 

[MA_Student]

Personally, I think all tests and ranking should be eliminated. Anybody who needs a colored piece of cloth to motivate their training has a shallow commitment to the arts and doesn't deserve it anyway. I'm glad to be training a system that does not promote that way. Belts are silly.

Wow that's a very arrogant view...people are motivated by different reasons and there reasons and their reasons are just as legitimate as yours

 

[Tez3]

I don't know how to explain it but the ITF has a different set of rules from the Olympics, among them allowing face punches. Now this sounds great in theory but the result is just a messy brawl. You are not allowed to throw combos longer than two punches, hooks are prohibited, as are uppercuts. This results in the most prevalent punch utilized being the superman punch, and this punch is not in our forms at all and is the very opposite of what a person would concider "good form."

Can anyone tell us whether this is what ITF rules are and it's normal for all ITF classes or whether this is peculiar to Axiom's class and instructors?

Strikes don't have to be in the forms to be utilised, we have a lot that aren't in kata that we use. Kata is for a specific purpose, as is sparring the two aren't the same thing.

 

[Tez3]

Rules – International Taekwon-Do Federation

Thank you, I couldn't find any specific rules for what techniques can be used though just the designation 'legal moves, it seems all the techniques that can be used are in an 'encyclopaedia'. It's also for competitions rather than the curriculum if there is one that used by all? Looking at it reminded me that Axiom has never mentioned competitions, perhaps he can tell us if it is a club for competitors more than just training in TKD? I did find this online, something an Australian lady had written for her black belt test. It's interesting so more and more I'm thinking that Axiom's class and instructor as described by him perhaps aren't the norm in ITF. http://taekwondo.wisebytes.net/bb_thesis.pdf

 

[andyjeffries]

It's labelled breaking! What is the Korean translation of breaking in KKW?

To be honest, I'm not close to competent in Korean enough to know, having only been learning the language for three years (not Taekwondo terms, but actually learning Korean). I'm only an intermediate speaker/reader/writer and an awful listener ;-)

The simple dictionary translation of kyukpa/격파 means destruction/annihilation. However, that doesn't mean that destruction/annihilation of the target is the only criteria. For example, a nuclear missile's purpose is to obliterate a target and to leave a long last post-impact devastation effect. That doesn't mean you can't have a successful nuclear missile test without obliterating a target (e.g if you aim at sea, it will have a temporary effect, but maybe not obliteration of that area of the sea because the water will flood/fall back immediately).

For example, most people translate kyeorugi/겨루기 as "fighting" or "sparring", but in fact it just means "competing or matching ones strength with the opponent". And that's from my Mac's built in dictionary (kyeoruda/겨루다 the verb which it comes from), I'm sure if I understood enough Korean, I could research the etymology of the word, but there's certainly more to it than a word word answer or simple concept.

Similar to how Tae-kwon-do is often translated as "foot-fist-way", but each word has a much larger conceptual meaning than that (which I'm not going to bother typing out).

So, regardless of what the literal translation of breaking or kyukpa is, you have to look for the wider context of why you're doing it, what it means in the context of Taekwondo and therefore determine your success criteria for your students (when you're a high enough grade to have them and promote them).

 

[andyjeffries]

If the technique is properly executed, the board will break. I don't understand how you can bypass that fact in a grading. If it doesn't, something is clearly done wrong. That is the student lacks power and/or technique.

Already explained - there are multiple reasons that the board doesn't break, aside from the student lacking power or correct technique.

 

[andyjeffries]

Your founders. In the eyes of ours, 1st Dan is instructor level.

When I was referring to the founders, I meant the founders of Taekwondo, rather than an individual dojang/association.

If you consider it to be the kwans/Kukkiwon in Korea, then you have to be a 4th Dan to graduate from the Master Instructor Course (and can't even attend it as a 1st Dan, let alone graduate/qualify).

If you consider it to be the ITF/General Choi, then they also consider it to be 4th Dan (page 123 of General Choi's Encyclopaedia, Volume 1).

 

[andyjeffries]

It doesn't matter what belt anyone else is wearing and what they did and didn't do to wear it. A woman/girl (I can't remember, but I think it was a female) passed a grading even though she didn't break the required boards. Others haven't completed their forms, botched them, etc.; others just show up once in a while and test and pass. So what? What's that got to do with you and just as importantly your abilities? How does anyone else's work ethic make any difference in your progress?.

^ That exactly that ^

I liked your post, but if there was a love button, I'd have clicked that instead. Honestly, exactly what you wrote above is how I feel.

I'm not being bigheaded, but I know the standard in my school is way above national average (I've been to other schools, been to national dan gradings and seen the standard there, I've had students go to Korea and do the Master Instructor Course and only need a few minor tweaks).

Does that affect the value my students and I place on our ranks, hell no! It doesn't devalue them in any way. What other people do is up to them. I know I'm at the standard where my instructor gave me the grade I am. Other people know how good he is, so they know I met his standard. My students have to meet the standard I set, hopefully in the future my reputation for standards and teaching will match my instructor's, but until then I worry about my standard and my students, they worry about their own standard (and not their classmates') and none of us worry about whatever anyone else's standard is.

 

[Tez3]

If you want correct translation of Korean to English and vice versa we have someone here who can do that
@KangTsai

 

[Axiom]

Already explained - there are multiple reasons that the board doesn't break, aside from the student lacking power or correct technique.

I must have missed that class. How could a student fail to break it without doing something wrong? It isn't a measure of power, and failing at that elementary level is pretty dreadful IMO

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I must have missed that class. How could a student fail to break it without doing something wrong? It isn't a measure of power, and failing at that elementary level is pretty dreadful IMO

A couple of us already posted about that.

 

[JR 137]

A lot of goals are pretty transient and superficial though. Say I climb Everest. In reality so what?

But I would still hang the photo of that on my wall. And appreciate that I did it.

If Everest had an elevator. Then the photo wouldn't matter so much.

But if no one knew there was an elevator, it would make you look cool.

Kind of like a black belt that's a participation award, but people don't know that.

 

[Axiom]

To be honest, I'm not close to competent in Korean enough to know, having only been learning the language for three years (not Taekwondo terms, but actually learning Korean). I'm only an intermediate speaker/reader/writer and an awful listener ;-)

The simple dictionary translation of kyukpa/격파 means destruction/annihilation. However, that doesn't mean that destruction/annihilation of the target is the only criteria. For example, a nuclear missile's purpose is to obliterate a target and to leave a long last post-impact devastation effect. That doesn't mean you can't have a successful nuclear missile test without obliterating a target (e.g if you aim at sea, it will have a temporary effect, but maybe not obliteration of that area of the sea because the water will flood/fall back immediately).

For example, most people translate kyeorugi/겨루기 as "fighting" or "sparring", but in fact it just means "competing or matching ones strength with the opponent". And that's from my Mac's built in dictionary (kyeoruda/겨루다 the verb which it comes from), I'm sure if I understood enough Korean, I could research the etymology of the word, but there's certainly more to it than a word word answer or simple concept.

Similar to how Tae-kwon-do is often translated as "foot-fist-way", but each word has a much larger conceptual meaning than that (which I'm not going to bother typing out).

So, regardless of what the literal translation of breaking or kyukpa is, you have to look for the wider context of why you're doing it, what it means in the context of Taekwondo and therefore determine your success criteria for your students (when you're a high enough grade to have them and promote them).

This discussion about semantics is an insult to both of us. I will leave it at that. Sad is all.

 

[andyjeffries]

This discussion about semantics is an insult to both of us. I will leave it at that. Sad is all.

It's not an insult to either of us, but then maybe you missed the point. You took a word in one language and made it seem as if simply using an approximate translated word in another language means that the area of study (and breaking is an area of studying, I know one late American grandmaster that wrote two whole books on the subject himself) becomes a simple concept. Languages often don't have an exact equivalent, there's an embedded history to how the word was used and is currently used that simply translating between languages without bearing in mind the culture isn't useful.

I'm happy to keep discussing this whole topic with you as we've had different experiences and have different points of view, but if you say something that isn't valid/useful (and I explain why I feel that way) and you just reply with "I will leave it at that. Sad is all", then there's not much point in engaging in the discussion.

 

[Flying Crane]

That way might be a bit difficult in practice when you are part of a large organization with 20 or more schools in the area and 10 -30 students per class. Belts make it easier to tell which student is at what level of training.

In my opinion, a large organization like that is often a big part of the problem.