Promotion stanrdards (Split from Is it disrespectful to ask [...])

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

That's not the point. Point is I stuck with it for 5 years and did my best. It's a bit like getting a grade. You pass a test just as much with an E as an A.

Sticking with it and doing your best is a very different thing than sticking with it. Doing my best is showing up every time I can, and giving it 110% whenever I'm there. Sticking with it is coming once a week and half-assing it when I'm there. Those two people shouldn't be advancing at the same rate, it's unfair to the first person, and dishonest to the second.

 

[MA_Student]

There are criterias for accurate form display (legs extended when kicking, for an example) and this I can of course confirm by myself, if I can do it or not.

Yeah but you just said before that someone failed a requirement and yet they still passed and listen having your legs extended when kicking...a beginner should be able to do that man.

Look mate you may think I hate you or something I don't because I don't know you I've never seen you train or spar and I apologise if anything I say offends you but seriously here do you see the problem with getting a black belt in 5 years no matter what I'm being genuine here. But listen I'm done here you won't get any replies. Best of luck to you.

Peace

 

[Tez3]

Have you been living under a rock? TKD black belt standards are infamously laxed.

does it? do you think the TKD instructors on here are lax then?

It doesn't affect people who are legit. Reputations are irrelevant. I had my *** handed to me by a yellow belt Kickboxing champion. A yellow belt!! Wow, belts are really indicative, aren't they?

Stop fixating on belts.

You need to make your mind up whether kickboxers are better than TKD people or that TKD people are kickboxer's nemesis. Perhaps you should stop making silly comments.

Belts denote time spent in an art. Second dan entails 2 years spent since first dan. A third dan 3 years from the second dan. etc

It is assumed that this correlates with ability, but that is an oversimplification.

Yes.

Belts may denote time spent in grade where you train but they don't in a lot of other places. Most places ask for a minimum time spent in grade before trying to grade for the next belt, it is a guideline so you don't grade too soon but is not a benchmark for passing. The times you quote aren't the same for everywhere either.

It's obvious to us now why you are so sure you are getting your belt, it's also obvious that it's as has already been said a participation award for doing the time regardless of how good or bad you are. Personally I would leave and find a place where I knew my gradings meant more than paying for them and staying a certain amount of time. I also find your assessment of TKD gradings and your school to be disrespectful.

 

[MA_Student]

Sticking with it and doing your best is a very different thing than sticking with it. Doing my best is showing up every time I can, and giving it 110% whenever I'm there Sticking with it is coming once a week and half-assing it when I'm there. Those two people shouldn't be advancing at the same rate, it's unfair to the first person, and dishonest to the second.

Agreed I could randomly pick up a gun and shoot it at a target and trymy absolute best to hit it doesn't make me an expert marksman

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Agreed that would seriously piss me off if I train 5 days a week and a guy trains once a week and we get the belt the same time. That's bs why should I bother train 5 days a week if I'm still getting it anyway why bother training the 4 extra

While I agree with you in concept on how it's unfair, for a lot of people that wouldn't matter too much. I'm fine with wearing a white belt, a black belt, or a rainbow belt, regardless of how much I train. But for people who have that as a goal, or need to see progress, I can see it being very demotivating.

 

[Tez3]

While I agree with you in concept on how it's unfair, for a lot of people that wouldn't matter too much. I'm fine with wearing a white belt, a black belt, or a rainbow belt, regardless of how much I train. But for people who have that as a goal, or need to see progress, I can see it being very demotivating.

For a lot of people who start martial arts they expect their gradings to be an indication that they are improving, for people with no previous knowledge of martial and no way to judge themselves it should be a reward for good technique. they have to trust their instructors and the organisation that they aren't being ripped off, belts at this stage of their martial arts journey are important. As they gain in experience, learn more about their martial art and can recognise what is good, bad or indifferent belts aren't as important.
There is also the money aspect, people paying hard earnt money to be taught properly and to progress. If they then see that everyone passes regardless of standard it becomes a rip off.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

For a lot of people who start martial arts they expect their gradings to be an indication that they are improving, for people with no previous knowledge of martial and no way to judge themselves it should be a reward for good technique. they have to trust their instructors and the organisation that they aren't being ripped off, belts at this stage of their martial arts journey are important. As they gain in experience, learn more about their martial art and can recognise what is good, bad or indifferent belts aren't as important.
There is also the money aspect, people paying hard earnt money to be taught properly and to progress. If they then see that everyone passes regardless of standard it becomes a rip off.

I agree with all this, my comment was for the "why bother training the 4 extra" part of the quote. Even if you're not getting recognized for it, it doesn't mean you should not be training hard. If your only focus is external motivation (belts) there's a good chance you'll burn out unless you also develop some internal motivation for training.

 

[TrueJim]

[A black belt is] about ability, not time...well that's what it's supposed to be anyway, before mcdojo instructors started giving out black belts to keep students in the club

Playing devil's advocate:

Where did you hear this? Who told you that a black belt is supposed to be about ability, not about time spent?

Here's my point: I think you're making an assumption that isn't necessarily born out by facts. Maybe there are schools/systems where a black belt IS defined as time spent. I'm not saying that's a good thing, I'm saying it's a thing: a belt only means what a school defines it to mean. Centimeters only mean what we define the to mean. Grams only mean what we define them to mean. Same thing goes for belts.

If the head of the school defines "black belt" to mean "Makes really good ice cream sundaes"...well then, that's what it means in that school. That doesn't mean they're a McDojo -- for all we know, they still practice excellent taekwondo -- with a cherry on top.

You're assuming "black belt" means "really good ability" -- but schools are free to make belts mean whatever they want them to mean. That doesn't mean it's a bad school. Centimeters wouldn't be "better" by being twice as long -- they'd just be different.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Eugh I hate when people say that "you will recieve your black belt next year" well how do you know you will you may fail the test I just can't stand it when people say that like they know they're going to be given no matter what

I would have said that the year before I finished testing for mine. I knew the tests, and knew I'd be able to pass them all. It wasn't a matter of "no matter what" - I just knew my own capabilities and the requirements that had been set. If something changed (I was injured, requirements changed, etc.), then my answer might have changed.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Anyone can have a bad day

If a student fails a test because of a "bad day", they were close to the edge of their ability to meet the requirements.

 

[Axiom]

Yeah but you just said before that someone failed a requirement and yet they still passed and listen having your legs extended when kicking...a beginner should be able to do that man.

The patterns get progressively harder and no, a beginner can not perform higher pattern movements correctly. I can perform the moves accurately, including aerial kicks. I am therefore by the book, a legit soon to be black belt.

 

[Axiom]

It can be unreasonably strict as well. There are accounts of Karate gradings in which students fail black tests because of petty details relating to distance between the feet, exact angles, despite having excellent striking techniques. That's just as unfair as the laxed gradings, IMO.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Different styles and different clubs/schools do things differently, it doesn't make it wrong to take a long test nor does it mean it's wrong to do a quick one because the student has already demonstrated ability.
For my test it was a matter of having a lot to demonstrate before the board, we have a big curriculum including ground work, weapons, techniques, kata, combinations, Ohyogumite, Kihon kumite, free sparring, self defence and teaching. That will easily take a day to show.

Stances alone we have 5 'natural stances, 6 'even' stances, 11 'uneven' stances and 4 'others'. All 15 kicks are done off each leg some also to different heights ie one to knee, one to middle one to head as well as jumping kicks which are done two different ways. We have 15 'arm' blocks, as well as leg blocks sweeps etc. There's also body movements to show then there's renrakuwaza ( combination techniques) done in line as well as set ones...ipponkumite and yakusoku. a lot is done in line work which saves some time but much isn't. The sheer volume of techniques etc we have to show makes it a long day.

The point too was that we enjoyed the day, yes we knew we had our instructors confidence and they knew we were prepared but going into something like that gives you a huge sense of accomplishment and confidence coming out of it. Perhaps you could call it a rite of passage, perhaps not but it certainly gave you a thrill to be presented with your black belt afterwards. It may have just been us doing what you do, showing off what we know, but because it was a long and encompassing day we really felt we'd worked hard. Did we need to show every techniques? Probably not but it felt great being able to remember and execute every single one of those movements. We would never do that again, not for subsequent gradings. Do people fail? Yes.

When I was testing for shodan, it took me about 6 months - a similar issue to your full day, except it all (except the final test) had to happen during regular classes, so was broken up into smaller increments over a longer calendar period. And there was a vocabulary test that actually was part learning and part memory, so it typically took about 10 sessions to complete.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

And yes gradings should be strict even if you know you are going to pass, no reason for sloppy techniques and laziness whatever type of grading you do! It's an occasion, whether just ceremonial or a proper test one should still have standards.

Agreed. "Strict" isn't necessarily the same thing as "really hard". Whatever the requirements, they should be strictly, well, required.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Well then that's just wrong and your instructor obviously isn't as much as a perfectionist as you claim. I personally don't agree with breaking as a requirement for a test but if that's what they require and someone fails to do it then they shouldn't be given the belt it's as simple as that to me. Giving someone a black belt even though they failed a simple requirement is just silly....why make it a requirement if they're going to pass you anyway. It's things like this that take away the legitemancy of a black belt.

But hey I can see why you're so confident you won't fail now

It's only "wrong" if we assume the breaking requirement is the point, in and of itself. If the breaking requirement is meant to demonstrate a certain quality, which is otherwise in evidence (ability to deliver power, perhaps), then he may have substituted a different display of that quality. And it may be that what's expressed as a "requirement" is not actually such - but something that is measured toward a different end.

To use a completely different situation to explain what I mean, let's say a side kick above belt level was required, on both sides. Now we have a student who has a hip problem (defect in the joint, an old injury that leaves permanent limitation, whatever). If everything else is spot on, I'd waive the requirement for that side kick.

Of course, we have no way of knowing if the instructor waived the 'requirement' for a legitimate reason, or not.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Playing devil's advocate:

Where did you hear this? Who told you that a black belt is supposed to be about ability, not about time spent?

Here's my point: I think you're making an assumption that isn't necessarily born out by facts. Maybe there are schools/systems where a black belt IS defined as time spent. I'm not saying that's a good thing, I'm saying it's a thing: a belt only means what a school defines it to mean. Centimeters only mean what we define the to mean. Grams only mean what we define them to mean. Same thing goes for belts.

If the head of the school defines "black belt" to mean "Makes really good ice cream sundaes"...well then, that's what it means in that school. That doesn't mean they're a McDojo -- for all we know, they still practice excellent taekwondo -- with a cherry on top.

You're assuming "black belt" means "really good ability" -- but schools are free to make belts mean whatever they want them to mean. That doesn't mean it's a bad school. Centimeters wouldn't be "better" by being twice as long -- they'd just be different.

I like the logic of your argument, Jim.

And now I want ice cream.

 

[Tez3]

It would seem though that all discussion about the black belt test as far as the OP is concerned are moot now because the OP has told u that he will get his because he has trained there for the requisite time, that people who don't fulfil the requires still get their belts so making the whole test pointless. I don't just mean the breaking incident but the fact the OP said all you had to do was the time not actually be any good at TKD.

 

[Tez3]

Sorry, boxing-like hip-twist. not Karate. using your entire body when punching pads..

So you think karate doesn't 'twist'?

It can be unreasonably strict as well. There are accounts of Karate gradings in which students fail black tests because of petty details relating to distance between the feet, exact angles, despite having excellent striking techniques. That's just as unfair as the laxed gradings, IMO.

Where are these accounts? Everything you post is just you making 'statements', please post proof of these otherwise it's not even hearsay, it's gossip.

You have to understand as well that what may be petty to you or even me is likely not to be to others. Students who train with instructors who are likely to fail them for such things like that fact, that's why they train there instead of walking away. The students and instructors are like minded. It matters to them what the distance is etc, for them it's not all about the 'striking' as it seems to be with you. For some people the devil is in the detail so for them the gradings are fair. It may not seem so to us but we aren't training with them. Most students gravitate towards a martial arts style and instruction that suits them. I think you would be better to concentrate on your own training rather than worry about how others grade.

 

[Axiom]

You have to understand as well that what may be petty to you or even me is likely not to be to others. Students who train with instructors who are likely to fail them for such things like that fact, that's why they train there instead of walking away. The students and instructors are like minded. It matters to them what the distance is etc, for them it's not all about the 'striking' as it seems to be with you. For some people the devil is in the detail so for them the gradings are fair. It may not seem so to us but we aren't training with them. Most students gravitate towards a martial arts style and instruction that suits them. I think you would be better to concentrate on your own training rather than worry about how others grade.

What I didn’t like about Shotokan karate

"After I became a Shotokan brown belt my rank advancement came to a halt. I kept testing to go to the next brown belt level (you have to get to the third before trying for a black belt). I kept being told that my sparring (fighting) skills were better than my kata (form) skills.

OK. Granted. But some of the criticisms of my basic Shotokan expertise were off-base – a product of looking at students through an assembly line, one-size-fits-all mentality. After failing a rank test I heard, "Your shoulders were too high; that's a sign of tension." A photo taken at the exam even was given to me as proof.

I went home, took my shirt off, got into the stance that I was in when the photo was taken, and looked at my shoulders in a mirror. Yes, they looked just like they were at the exam. I tried to relax them further. I couldn't. They were relaxed. I've got broad shoulders. My shoulders look different from most other guys' shoulders.

You'd think that an advanced Shotokan black belt, like all of the examiners were, would be able to take into account an individual difference like that. However, Shotokan isn't big on individuality. If you're a second degree black belt, then maybe, just maybe, you'll be allowed to tweak a move in a kata to better suit you."

 

[Tez3]

What I didn’t like about Shotokan karate

"After I became a Shotokan brown belt my rank advancement came to a halt. I kept testing to go to the next brown belt level (you have to get to the third before trying for a black belt). I kept being told that my sparring (fighting) skills were better than my kata (form) skills.

OK. Granted. But some of the criticisms of my basic Shotokan expertise were off-base – a product of looking at students through an assembly line, one-size-fits-all mentality. After failing a rank test I heard, "Your shoulders were too high; that's a sign of tension." A photo taken at the exam even was given to me as proof.

I went home, took my shirt off, got into the stance that I was in when the photo was taken, and looked at my shoulders in a mirror. Yes, they looked just like they were at the exam. I tried to relax them further. I couldn't. They were relaxed. I've got broad shoulders. My shoulders look different from most other guys' shoulders.

You'd think that an advanced Shotokan black belt, like all of the examiners were, would be able to take into account an individual difference like that. However, Shotokan isn't big on individuality. If you're a second degree black belt, then maybe, just maybe, you'll be allowed to tweak a move in a kata to better suit you."

Sweetie, that's one person's opinion not proof of anything other than he has an opinion. He's made the same mistake as you though in thinking that his experience means that Shotokan is like this everywhere rather than just where he trained. We can all generalise and spout clichés but it only ends up with us looking stupid. I might as well say I met a man from New York once who was a bit rude so I'm telling you now that all Americans are rude or how about I met a woman from Liverpool and she had thick curly hair so all women from the UK have thick curly hair. Are you getting this yet? Parroting the opinions of one dissatisfied karate student doesn't make all Shotokan bad nor it's instructors poor. It can also mean the writer is just bitter because he was failed for major reason but isn't going to say so, he chooses to give us minor details so it's the instructors that look bad not him. You need to question why this person wrote this and not give it to us as 'proof' it's barely more than gossip as I said.

There's also plenty of comments under that article that fundamentally disagree with him. Did you read them, there's more than these three I've posted, I quite like the last one.

"you dont know what your talkin about. ive been taking shotokan karate for 7 years now and i've got my second degree black belt. and let me tell you we do realize we dont have "authority" over the other styles. we realize the strengths and weaknesses our style has when put agianst the other forms. you sit there and made it look like we people in shotokan are a bunch of arrogant fools. i dont appreciate that at all.

Posted by: jeff wethers | March 16, 2008 at 11:48 AM "


"I have to disagree with your blanket assessment of Shotokan karate. Not all schools are run that way. Less then twenty four hours ago I tested and passed to second level brown belt; second kyu. In addition to our standard training of basics we also engage in very practical self defense. Many of the black belts who train here are cops or even professional bodyguards. My instructor has mentioned many times to do " your karate" clearly understanding the individual strengths and weakness of everyone. As far as corvettes ? I know for a fact there is no profit being made here worth mentioning. The president is one of my closeset friends and the occasional profits went to treating us all on a night out. We pay half what most schools pay and as an advanced student I have seven different opportunities to train per week. I'm sorry you had a bad experience but not all places are the same.

Posted by: Steve X | September 21, 2012 at 11:12 AM "


"mann you are totally off on this one shotokan is not about rigidity at all its all about getting connection through your entire body and releasing energy through one focal point in your body to create a very powerful and fast technique. The reason that you might have held your own against someone that is ranked higher than you is because you might have better physical skills than the other person. Or simply because the other person is not that great at free style kumite. BUT what you do not understand is the fact that he understands how his body connects he understand that you have to squeeze muscles together at the same time and also rotate your hips in such a way that causes more force to come out. NO you are to focused on the fact that you were thinking of your self as a macho guy who thinks he is better than everyone else... along those lines i have trained shotokan for 17 years and i am still a 3rd degree brown. it is not all about belts.
spiritually it is invigorating, every day you try and better yourself.

Posted by: Mikael B. | April 22, 2013 at 06:28 PM"