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[Monkey Turned Wolf]

You could do the drill at a slow enough pace people can win at it. But nobody does.

Yes they do. Not everybody, but not "nobody". There are absolutely people that do this drill at distance rather than directly in the pocket, and slow enough that people should be able to react/'win'.

 

[drop bear]

Yes they do. Not everybody, but not "nobody". There are absolutely people that do this drill at distance rather than directly in the pocket, and slow enough that people should be able to react/'win'.

Well yeah. I do it right. But that was from years of trying to understand that even though I could pull counters off in sparring and fights I could never pull them off in drills.

To be honest is was once I started going against good guys in sparring. Because they would be on me faster than I could react. And I was like. I have to set this up or I just get jumped.

Which sent me down the rabbit hole of learning how to move safely though the space. Rather than see and respond.

Which is the difference between a terrible fighter. And a not so terrible fighter.

But it doesn't matter who does it. Or doesn’t. Unless O.P does it. And that is the reason he can't get good at drills.

Because that's the issue we are trying to solve.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Well yeah. I do it right. But that was from years of trying to understand that even though I could pull counters off in sparring and fights I could never pull them off in drills.

To be honest is was once I started going against good guys in sparring. Because they would be on me faster than I could react. And I was like. I have to set this up or I just get jumped.

Which sent me down the rabbit hole of learning how to move safely though the space. Rather than see and respond.

Which is the difference between a terrible fighter. And a not so terrible fighter.

But it doesn't matter who does it. Or doesn’t. Unless O.P does it. And that is the reason he can't get good at drills.

Because that's the issue we are trying to solve.

That's the whole reason I asked him at first to see what the issue actually was. Since it could be this, but I've also seen plenty of people where it's just a matter of them panicking and having flinch reactions unless they know exactly what is coming and when.

Though from his other responses, that doesn't seem to be the case. So I guess discussing it further doesn't really help him out at this point lol

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

they think one day they will get fast enough.

They won't.

Agree with you 100% on this. People train in slow speed and believe that one day they will be able to move with "lighting speed". It will never happen.

 

[windwalker099]

You could do the drill at a slow enough pace people can win at it. But nobody does. Because they think one day they will get fast enough.

They won't.

Don't know about "winning" in a drill..


In FMA they have flow drills, to develop rhythm timing, distance, range and angle perception
They start slow, to fast after awhile....

Not so much about catching one movement, as being able to continue the flow and develop a sense of timing, and ability to adjust an adapt to different timing. .

In CMA the have similar drills for the same purposes..

 

[drop bear]

Don't know about "winning" in a drill..


In FMA they have flow drills, to develop rhythm timing, distance, range and angle perception
They start slow, to fast after awhile....

Not so much about catching one movement, as being able to continue the flow and develop a sense of timing, and ability to adjust an adapt to different timing. .

In CMA the have similar drills for the same purposes..

Flow drill is different.

 

[marvin8]

Nobody succeeds at that drill if the person who is feeding the strikes is any good.

You just don't have time.

Reaction (responder) is almost always slower than action (feeder). Reaction + action = response time. There are various ways to increase reaction time with the understanding of fighting principles and experience: don't stand in the fight zone with hands down, distance control, angles, limit your opponent's options, anticipate opponent's movement based on position, control fight from the start, etc.

At 5:10, robot arm experiment here.

stryk.usa
181w

Not as easy as it looks! Even champion strikers such as Stamp Fairtex struggles with the RXT-1 at first when set to "Sparring Mode!"

https://imgur.com/OkpjWnv

Thanks! Very good question! the problem is I often react with the wrong block. For instance, I know I should react to a head kick to the left side of the head by raising my left hand, palm in, to the left side of my head, and blocking with the palm of my right hand. But I often have my hands in the wrong orientation, or wrong position. Maybe I just need lots more repetition: I can remember what to do OK, but I don't have time to think through it. I should be doing the right thing quickly and without thinking, almost as fast as a conditioned reflex. I Can do that OK with, for instance 1-2 jab/cross (i.e. I don't need to think about fist positions, blocking, rotating from hips, stepping-while-punching etc) but of course with an attack I am in control: I'm not there at all with defences. Possibly another thing is that it's not really possible to practice defences on my own as I can practice punches and kicks (to an extent) on my own.

From open stance, Cung blocks head kick, steps forward to the right and throws cross, hook.

https://imgur.com/E7KLQ1h

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

From open stance, Cung blocks head kick, steps forward to the right and throws cross, hook.

https://imgur.com/E7KLQ1h

I like this video. It shows 2 important points:

- In open stance, you should always watch your opponent's back leg roundhouse kick.
- Comb hair is an important defense tool.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Obviously it isn't slow enough though. Because he is not catching the strikes in time.

Hence his issue.

Amd you don't catch the strikes in time Because the drill favours the striker pretty heavily.

You could do the drill at a slow enough pace people can win at it. But nobody does. Because they think one day they will get fast enough.

They won't.

You can train slow and get faster here's how. Train slow at the start so that you become familiar with what you are defending against.

After a few minutes increase the speed. After a successful round increase the speed again. Repeat the speed increase step after you have a successful round. Eventually you'll reach a limit. Once you reach that limit where success is within reach if you can only be a little bit faster, figure out what to do to be faster.

Start looking at things that can be done to increase speed today. Once you increase your speed then increase the speed of the incoming strikes then repeat the process.

When I ran track the team would run up a steep. Each time we ran up the hill we were slow, but on level ground those up hill sprints which were really slow made us faster on level ground.

Training with iron rings make punches faster. The only requirement for becoming faster is to go as fast as you can and then learn to be faster

This is especially true with martial arts because you have to do more than just be fast. You have to learn how to be fast at processing the incoming strikes as well. no matter how fast you are, if you can't recognize the strike then you'll be slow at reacting

 

[isshinryuronin]

When I ran track the team would run up a steep. Each time we ran up the hill we were slow, but on level ground those up hill sprints which were really slow made us faster on level ground.

Training with iron rings make punches faster. The only requirement for becoming faster is to go as fast as you can and then learn to be faster

Having done some of this kind of training, I'm not sure if it really has a direct effect on speed. It may just be giving one the illusion of speed as there is less resistance. It can build some muscle tone and endurance which can maybe affect speed, but I think there are better ways.

You have to learn how to be fast at processing the incoming strikes as well. no matter how fast you are, if you can't recognize the strike then you'll be slow at reacting

I basically agree with this, but I have gone against a couple of guys so blinding fast that once they get going, launching 6 attacks in less than two seconds, there is no way to process anything. It's all a blur with defending reduced to a "lizard brain" blocking pattern, the conscious mind having no idea what's happening. This is a whole topic in itself, so I won't elaborate on it now.

But in normal circumstances one can recognize what the opponent is capable of throwing based on his positioning and common follow-ups. You can be "fast" (even if you're slower than the other guy) dealing with these attacks by having your guard up and ready, being balanced and relaxed with some tension to allow quick movement, using distance, angles and guard to limit his attack options and thus the choices you have to make which decreases reaction time, etc. The topic of "speed" and "reaction" can take a book to really cover it all, so we can only scratch the surface with our posts, IMO.

Aside from whatever physical or mental methods are used, there is no substitute for sparring experience to allow the body to "know" how to react.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Having done some of this kind of training, I'm not sure if it really has a direct effect on speed. It may just be giving one the illusion of speed as there is less resistance. It can build some muscle tone and endurance which can maybe affect speed, but I think there are better ways.

Not the results I've seen and experienced. There was no illusion of speed. Track is based on time you either run faster or you don't. Feeling like you are running doesn't factor in track because everything is about running faster than your previous time. In order to have the illusion of running faster you would have to have a slower time.

The immediate effects of this type of training is the opposite. You will feel slower and will be slower but give it 4 or 5 days and that's when the improvement will occur. Lots of info on this. There are different methods of sprinting up hill. If you shorten your stride then you won't get faster. It's gotta be a full sprint stride.

launching 6 attacks in less than two seconds, there is no way to process anything.

That means the person is training against too much speed and needs to drill at a slower speed. There is no benefit in training a technique against something so fast that you can't process it. The other issue is that not all techniques are designed to defend against high speed attacks. I train students not to try to be faster than 6 strikes but to be faster than the second strike and to use that strike to disrupt their opponent's 3rd strike. I do this with great success against people who are faster than me. If you are faster than me, then my goal isn't to beat your first punch but your second punch. So the techniques that I use help me to do this.

Long fist techniques work in a similar way. If some is faster than me then I only need to delay there speed. But that's different than standing in front of someone waiting for a punch and trying to react to it. There are ways to beat the striker but not all techniques are capable of doing that. That's when it becomes like what drop bear says and the person will never be fast enough.

Long guard works better against speed than short guard. Even if I'm late to react I still have a chance to move the punch. The same is not true of a short guard. If your punch gets past my short guard then the next couple of inches beyond my guard is my face. Expect people who use short guard to have a lot of evasive footwork and body work.

 

[drop bear]

You can train slow and get faster here's how. Train slow at the start so that you become familiar with what you are defending against.

After a few minutes increase the speed. After a successful round increase the speed again. Repeat the speed increase step after you have a successful round. Eventually you'll reach a limit. Once you reach that limit where success is within reach if you can only be a little bit faster, figure out what to do to be faster.

Start looking at things that can be done to increase speed today. Once you increase your speed then increase the speed of the incoming strikes then repeat the process.

When I ran track the team would run up a steep. Each time we ran up the hill we were slow, but on level ground those up hill sprints which were really slow made us faster on level ground.

Training with iron rings make punches faster. The only requirement for becoming faster is to go as fast as you can and then learn to be faster

This is especially true with martial arts because you have to do more than just be fast. You have to learn how to be fast at processing the incoming strikes as well. no matter how fast you are, if you can't recognize the strike then you'll be slow at reacting

That isn't reaction time from a position that makes reacting really hard.

 

[isshinryuronin]

There is no benefit in training a technique against something so fast that you can't process it.

Agree. But I was not referring to practice sparring where this is true, but in competitive tournament sparring. Asking the opponent to slow down a bit probably will not work though I was tempted a couple of times.

If you are faster than me, then my goal isn't to beat your first punch but your second punch. So the techniques that I use help me to do this.

I've found the 2nd punch comes even faster than the first, but of course it depends on the opponent. Your goal will work in a cumulative non-stop point match and full contact (if you can take that 1st punch) but not in a match where the action stops after each point (which is where my competitive experience is).

Long guard works better against speed than short guard.

I agree. Your hands will be closer to the attack and effectively faster for the reasons you gave, and to the opponent for a counter/stop hit. You're basically getting a head start on your reaction with a long guard.

Not the results I've seen and experienced. There was no illusion of speed. Track is based on time you either run faster or you don't

Can't argue with this logic. Never trained speed running this way though I've done my share of hill running for overall conditioning. Punching, yes, and I'm still doubtful of its training value for speed. Admittedly, I'm basing this on my qualitative feeling of the punch and not quantitative data with a high-speed timer. I also did not spend a lot of time on weighted speed training, preferring other methods. There are many ways to train a particular skill or ability. Some may work better than others for a particular person. Good to try several as each will develop a slightly different aspect of the skill.

 

[JowGaWolf]

That isn't reaction time from a position that makes reacting really hard.

I was only speaking of speed. Reaction time is different because it's not always a speed issue. Me planning my attack based on beating the second punch is still reaction time.

It's possible to be fast and have bad reaction time.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I've found the 2nd punch comes even faster than the first, but of course it depends on the opponent.

It's easier to for me to time the second punch. Classic counter attack where the first pinch helps to time the second one.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Punching, yes, and I'm still doubtful of its training value for speed.

Speed helps but fast punches without power are worse than slow punches with power. We all lose speed eventually.

 

[Sammy Naur]

- Comb hair is an important defense tool.

It's often called "raise the phone" or "answer the phone", it's a basic boxing guard, Western, Thai, etc. depending on your orthodoxy, you protect your head from hooks with that hand on the side, while also chambering it for a cross.

It's a little less useful in MMA, BJJ, judo etc since you might need to move those hands lower fast.

 

[drop bear]

I was only speaking of speed. Reaction time is different because it's not always a speed issue. Me planning my attack based on beating the second punch is still reaction time.

It's possible to be fast and have bad reaction time.

In any event. O.P. might not be bad at martial arts like he thinks.

He just might be doing drills that make him seem bad at martial arts.










And he should do MMA.

 

[Badhabits]

Drills aside, trying to block a bunch of incoming punches has another issue- there's a good chance that even if you are fast enough to do it, a physically stronger opponents punch will just blow right through a block and get you anyway. Footwork and body shifting along with blocking ought to get you out of the way of the punches from the get go. I had a high ranking wado instructor who would point at people in class and say "there's no way I could just block his punches away". Imo blocking should always be coupled with footwork and body shifting precisely to deal with these issues of speed/reaction time and a stronger opponent.

 

[Prince_Alarming]

It might be worth mentioning a drill we sometimes do when one fighter, improvising, throws a random technique and the other reacts to it. We sometimes do it in class, and it really helps you recognise the signs when somebody is about to throw a roundhouse kick or whatever. Of course, there are ways round this, like throwing combinations and so on.